NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[Stars align]

Yes I have and it's hard to read.

Is this the same report that Clarkson and Fagan are yet to see?or another one

 

[Del191229]

But if the report matched what he wrote, then what is the problem?

That the report contained allegations is factual.

I genuinely don't understand what you're driving at.

The Egan report is a few bits of paper with some anonymous allegations written on them.

That's all, nothing more or less.

It isn't a formal document of any sort.

 

[Aristotle Pickett the3rd]

IF Clarko and co are found to have done nothing wrong, who's going down for the witchhunt ?

IF Clarko and co are found to have done nothing wrong, who's going down for the witchhunt ?

Is this the same report that Clarkson and Fagan are yet to see?or another one

The one in the public domain. It's on this thread somewhere or you can google it.

 

[Gralin]

The North Melbourne mafia are here again as a large group ganging up on people.

you're pretty good at doing that all by yourself so I wouldn't be throwing stones

 

[sr36]

I've always said it could have been published without naming the individuals.

I agree that it would be better without names, but not for journalistic reasons. It would have kept the focus on the subject of the story and on the footy club that allowed this to occur. Which is where the focus belongs.

But rather than the names making the story poorly researched with insufficient evidence like you've implied so many times, they actually suggest stronger research and evidence, otherwise the names would have been likely removed as it went through the pre-publication chain.

 

[RichLeMonde]

A Frist Nations player who isn't Aboriginal.

OK, I have only now for the first time looked into who the 3 players in the report are. It's pretty easy to find out. It's actually pretty interesting to read articles and interviews with them from that time period, and also learn about what has happened to them since then.

But I'm curious why you say that the breaking news about Lidia Thorpe and Dean Martin is relevant here?

 

[Del191229]

I agree that it would be better without names, but not for journalistic reasons. It would have kept the focus on the subject of the story and on the footy club that allowed this to occur. Which is where the focus belongs.

But rather than the names making the story poorly researched with insufficient evidence like you've implied so many times, they actually suggest stronger research and evidence, otherwise the names would have been likely removed as it went through the pre-publication chain.

Of you're suggesting Rusty did a whole heap of background research and gathered a heap of evidence that for some reason he chose not to include, but that the lawyers saw?

 

[Del191229]

OK, I have only now for the first time looked into who the 3 players in the report are. It's pretty easy to find out. It's actually pretty interesting to read articles and interviews with them from that time period, and also learn about what has happened to them since then.

But I'm curious why you say that the breaking news about Lidia Thorpe and Dean Martin is relevant here?

Lidia says she met Dean through blak activism. It is interesting also that a High Court case about whether an indigenous person can be deported or not hinged on whether a Maori person born in NZ could be considered Australian Aboriginal if accepted as a such by a mob.

 

[Laphroaig]

Oh you mean the black people.

What a dumb cheap shot. Colour me unsurprised.

You haven't come to terms with the idea that there is some solidarity among and recognition of similarities and differences between the Australian and US experience?

Aboriginal groups taking up the BLM motto had a local context into which this fit quite well. Deaths from police negligence, brutality and so on aren't confined to US cities. But we've had this conversation before, and it is straying off topic.

I don't think we have had this conversation. I'm sure I would have remembered how enlightening it was.

You might benefit from reading Commissioner Muirhead's report. He nailed it. And 30 years later, pretty much nothing has been done. Because the loud voices continue to prefer to shout police brutality. Sounds so much more dramatic.

 

[RichLeMonde]

Lidia says she met Dean through blak activism. It is interesting also that a High Court case about whether an indigenous person can be deported or not hinged on whether a Maori person born in NZ could be considered Australian Aboriginal if accepted as a such by a mob.

Maybe I'm thick but I'm still not getting it.

I mean, I can imagine that someone like Martin could have been getting involved in Black activism for cynical reasons to try to influence people like Thorpe, to reduce the likelihood that he got thrown out of Australia (like his brother, Dusty's dad). So broadly, I can see that some individuals get involved in identity politics for totally self-serving reasons. But is there any direct link to the Hawthorn stuff?

 

[Del191229]

Maybe I'm thick but I'm still not getting it.

I mean, I can imagine that someone like Martin could have been getting involved in Black activism for cynical reasons to try to influence people like Thorpe, to reduce the likelihood that he got thrown out of Australia (like his brother, Dusty's dad). So broadly, I can see that some individuals get involved in identity politics for totally self-serving reasons. But is there any direct link to the Hawthorn stuff?

Sorry, I'm not being clear. I don't think most average punters on the street would consider a Maori person and an Aboriginal person to be "the same" as it were.

But the wider lens of First Nations identity does do that, and Egan appears to have in his investigation too.

It just speaks to the depths of nuance and complexity involved.

 

[Saucery]

AFL releases guidelines for investigation into allegations of racism and bullying at Hawthorn

AFL chief executive Gillon McLachlan says the investigation into Hawthorn's treatment of Indigenous players and their families must give "due process and natural justice to those who have made claims and those against whom allegations have been made".

www.abc.net.au

From this and other similar articles it states that the so called "independent investigation" will now be able to retain their own subject matter experts.

Does this imply they are no longer being "assisted" by the law firm Gordon Legal?

 

[faible]

Of you're suggesting Rusty did a whole heap of background research and gathered a heap of evidence that for some reason he chose not to include, but that the lawyers saw?

There was emails in the Hawthorn report from memory, what's to say the ABC aren't in possession of <something> that supports naming three specific individuals that wouldn't have added anything to the narrative of the story, or might have given away too much detail about who the players were?

I find it unlikely that Jackson simply made it all up, or pieced together very spurious claims in to a story. You appear to be trying your darndest to make Jackson out to be some kind of blind crusader for those ex-players though.

 

[Chief]

the loud voices continue to prefer to shout police brutality. Sounds so much more dramatic.

So you think there is no problem with over-policing, use of force, and attention paid to duty of care in custody?

 

[blackshadow]

AFL releases guidelines for investigation into allegations of racism and bullying at Hawthorn

AFL chief executive Gillon McLachlan says the investigation into Hawthorn's treatment of Indigenous players and their families must give "due process and natural justice to those who have made claims and those against whom allegations have been made".

www.abc.net.au

From this and other similar articles it states that the so called "independent investigation" will now be able to retain their own subject matter experts.

Does this imply they are no longer being "assisted" by the law firm Gordon Legal?

Gordon is The AFL’s legal representative not the investigation panel.

 

[sr36]

Of you're suggesting Rusty did a whole heap of background research and gathered a heap of evidence that for some reason he chose not to include, but that the lawyers saw?

I'm suggesting that he's produced a very compelling piece of writing on a very newsworthy topic, given it to his editor, who has most likely run it past a legal team with supporting notes and information that may or may not been printable and the lawyers have cleared it as ok to print the names. Meanwhile, someone who was not involved in the process, with no access to the additional notes or information is being really arrogant if they claim over and over again that there wasn't enough evidence and that it was shoddy research.

And ultimately, it was the ABC who published it with the names included. He's not a lawyer. He writes his story and then others make any changes if necessary. So don't go after the journalist, even if you have the info, which you don't have. He wanted the names in there, but it's not his call if they get published.

 

[Saucery]

Gordon is The AFL’s legal representative not the investigation panel.

Yes that's what I believe they were intended to be, but originally they were announced as 'assisting' the panel.

Now with the "independent investigation" able to retain their own 'subject matter experts' will this put them out of the investigation process?

I'm guessing having an AFL affiliated law firm associated with the actual investigation was unacceptable to the plaintiffs.

 

[Laphroaig]

Please tell me how these people change these outcomes by 'being on the ground'. What can they do to change the problems Aboriginal people encounter? How can they make a difference? I am interested about your own 'on the ground' experience with Aboriginal people. A lot of problems have been created by people being on the ground.

I will take this question at face value. Which may be courageous, but here we go.

I strongly believe in addressing socio economic, community violence and education issues. It will take a long time. But (among other things) young people with low socio economic status, poor education and exposure to violence are far more likely to end up making contact with the criminal justice system. And it is a near universal truth that once a person has made contact with the criminal justice system, the system has a habit of reaching out and finding them. Repeatedly.

My experience? I had a business that conducted demographic research, community analysis and fund seeking for projects not funded by government. My last contract was a 6 month study of what was possibly the worst public housing estate in Victoria. If not the worst, certainly on the short list. Guess which societal group was dumped there? I never submitted my invoice. The business had been good to me and it felt right to return something.

Being there was massively confronting, particularly in seeing the young people already nearly lost to a decent life. Not at school, often intoxicated in one way or another. We ended up in the drive to school group, and the feed before school group, and the scrounge sports equipment group. We managed to have the community house restructured to provide homework space and extra tutoring. With incentives to get the kids in there after school. A full size basketball court, with lights (public housing areas only get a half court on the government dollar).

Since then I was enrolled in a program to spend 3 months a year in The Territory as a volunteer teacher's aid. Often that means being the teacher in reality. That one scuppered by COVID before I got there, but we hope to see it reinstated in 2023.

That's what I mean by on the ground. From the ground up. Find ways to at least begin to break the cycle and the younger generation is where the higher rewards are.

One person - makes bugger all difference. 100 people, different story. 1000 people, now we're talking. Measures like this are open to an aweful lot of people. Why not forget about going to Ibud this year to take photos of yourself. Feed a kid breakfast and drive them to school instead.

 

[Laphroaig]

So you think there is no problem with over-policing, use of force, and attention paid to duty of care in custody?

I think there is a massive problem in our criminal justice system. It is a very shitty environment. It is, however, not a race problem - apart from the fact that like it or not Australia is a racist society - and you will find the buggers in all walks of life.

These are facts.

• Indigenous prisoners represent 15 % of deaths in custody. Nearly 30% of Australian prisoners are indigenous. Do the math.
• The vast majority of all deaths in custody are from natural causes
• Indigenous deaths in custody are even more heavily weighted towards natural causes (probably because their health and life expectancy is so shitty in the first place).
• It is a popular myth in some quarters that Indigenous prisoners are there through police victimisation, or unpaid traffic fines, etc etc. THe numbers are freely available - the crime convicted of - and that assumption does not stand in any way.

Hint. The bold parts are the important ones. They point us to where we need to at least try to make a start.

I will happily send you the data. The question is whether you have the courage to read it.

 

[Del191229]

I'm suggesting that he's produced a very compelling piece of writing on a very newsworthy topic, given it to his editor, who has most likely run it past a legal team with supporting notes and information that may or may not been printable and the lawyers have cleared it as ok to print the names. Meanwhile, someone who was not involved in the process, with no access to the additional notes or information is being really arrogant if they claim over and over again that there wasn't enough evidence and that it was shoddy research.

And ultimately, it was the ABC who published it with the names included. He's not a lawyer. He writes his story and then others make any changes if necessary. So don't go after the journalist, even if you have the info, which you don't have. He wanted the names in there, but it's not his call if they get published.

Tldr you've invented a whole bunch of "supporting notes and information" to make your theory stand up.

 

[campbell]

I would hope that any First Nations player is not reading this thread.

I hope ALL First Nations now feel Culturally Safe at their club.

Sadly, I am sure neither will be occuring.

 

[sr36]

Tldr you've invented a whole bunch of "supporting notes and information" to make your theory stand up.

Your claim to having been a journalist becomes more dubious with every post. That's something I'd like see some corroborating evidence for...

 

[Del191229]

The Terms of Reference and Process Plan confirms:

• The ability for all participants to share their perspectives, to hear the perspectives of other participants and to respond.

It is hard to say whether this means that a form of cross examination will be allowed.

If it isn't, its hard to see how anyone is going to accept their career being ended by this process.

 

[TENACIOUS]

I've been on the bench seat, watching from afar...

Gil's comments,

He said Clarkson and Fagan would return to work "when the time is right" but no date has been set.

"We're anticipating they'll come back to work and they've actually respected the seriousness of these allegations by going on leave," McLachlan said.

"I actually think that they're to be commended and I think with the terms of reference being on foot, hopefully the process that follows actually gives some certainty for the accused and the complainants.

"I'm sure the clubs will be picking up the conversation about if there's an environment for them to come back to work.

"Ultimately it's a decision for the clubs."

This bolded comment actually made me feel sick, no wonder the accuser's, don't want the AFL to be part of it...
That comment alone makes the boy's club, sweeping under the table, fake review and already made up their mind, comments seriously plausible...

The North supporters blind support for a guy that has never even coached a game for your club are encroaching on Essendon supporter levels...

AFL releases terms of reference for Hawks probe, reveals end date

The independent panel investigating historical allegations of racism at Hawthorn intends to complete its work this year

www.afl.com.au

 

[Del191229]

Your claim to having been a journalist becomes more dubious with every post. That's something I'd like see some corroborating evidence for...

Oh that's what happens in a normal good journalistic process, Rusty just didn't do that is all.

Tbh I think the issue is that Jackson operates as freelance print journalists for a broadcaster.

He has licence to go off and pursue his ideas, and he comes back with the finished product and they go plonk and run it as a one and done.

If we was working at a newspaper, there'd be a number of people involved in the process, and a whole variety of stages, and he'd have editors at various levels directing him where to take the story, which bits he needs to stand up etc.

The story would look very very different.

As it is, these are Rusty's personal projects, his passion he gets paid for. And by and large he's good at.

Until now.

I also don't care whether you believe I've worked as a journalist or not.