NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 2

[Wosh]

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread.
Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the report button, please and thank you.

If you feel upset or need to talk you can call either Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636 or Lifeline on 13 11 14 at any time.

- Crisis support for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders 13YARN (13 92 76) 13YARN - Call 13 92 76 | 24 /7

This is a serious topic, please treat it as such.

Videos, statements etc in the OP here:

NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf


DO NOT QUOTE THREADS FROM OTHER BOARDS

 

[Beerfish]

Yep. Didn't refute the Zac story at all. In fact made it sound more likely that the three had gone nuts

He's kind of pulled the pin on a hand grenade, thrown it and then dived on it. All in one interview.

 

[Maxabillions]

Did I miss something somewhere in the last month or so that facilitated this apparent turning of the tide of public opinion towards Clarkson et al? Has there been something emerge I missed that has cast significant doubt on the very credible allegations (beyond Phil Egan being investigated for fraud which somehow meant multiple First Nations players would make up these allegations ). Yes the way Hawthorn and I think particularly the AFL has handled things has been inept and of course this would have taken a huge mental toll on Clarkson. But all this outpouring of sympathy and concern for Clarkson from the media which has seemed to completely forget about and disregard what the first nations players have/would be going through has left me feeling sick. This interview from Burt leaves me wondering how it’s possible Clarkson will be “exonerated“ beyond a cynical whitewash (pun intended) and sweeping under the rug.

 

[r_boy]

Did I miss something somewhere in the last month or so that facilitated this apparent turning of the tide of public opinion towards Clarkson et al? Has there been something emerge like hat I e missed which has cast significant doubt on the very credible allegations (beyond Phil Egan being investigated for fraud which somehow meant multiple First Nations players would make up these allegations ). Yes the way Hawthorn and I think particularly the AFL has handled things has been inept and of course this would have taken a huge mental toll on Clarkson. But all this outpouring of sympathy and concern for Clarkson from the media which has seemed to completely forget about and disregard what the firsts nations players have/would be going through has left me feeling sick. This interview from Burt leaves me wondering how it’s possible Clarkson will be “exonerated“ beyond a cynical and frankly disgusting whitewash (pun interneded) and sweeping under the rug.

Well the accusations haven't really stood up to scrutiny that's probably what you missed

 

[perplexed]

Did I miss something somewhere in the last month or so that facilitated this apparent turning of the tide of public opinion towards Clarkson et al? Has there been something emerge like hat I e missed which has cast significant doubt on the very credible allegations (beyond Phil Egan being investigated for fraud which somehow meant multiple First Nations players would make up these allegations ). Yes the way Hawthorn and I think particularly the AFL has handled things has been inept and of course this would have taken a huge mental toll on Clarkson. But all this outpouring of sympathy and concern for Clarkson from the media which has seemed to completely forget about and disregard what the firsts nations players have/would be going through has left me feeling sick. This interview from Burt leaves me wondering how it’s possible Clarkson will be “exonerated“ beyond a cynical and frankly disgusting whitewash (pun interneded) and sweeping under the rug.

Yeah it seems you've missed quite a bit. Maybe before you post again you should read through the thread in its entirety. Spend as long as you can on the semantic debates. You won't believe want investigation and defamation now mean.

 

[Maxabillions]

Well the accusations haven't really stood up to scrutiny that's probably what you missed

Yeah it seems you've missed quite a bit. Maybe before you post again you should read through the thread in its entirety. Spend as long as you can on the semantic debates. You won't believe want investigation and defamation now mean.

Can you link me to anything that shows the allegations haven’t stood up to scrutiny (not including the Phil Egan fraud stuff and the denials of Clarkson at al)?

I have been reading through the thread. I haven’t seen anything substantial/credible that refutes the claims beyond there being differing recollections of the same events. Burt has come out and said that what Zac and Kylie alleged did happen but he has a different recollection of it.

 

[Elixuh]

Did I miss something somewhere in the last month or so that facilitated this apparent turning of the tide of public opinion towards Clarkson et al? Has there been something emerge like hat I e missed which has cast significant doubt on the very credible allegations (beyond Phil Egan being investigated for fraud which somehow meant multiple First Nations players would make up these allegations ). Yes the way Hawthorn and I think particularly the AFL has handled things has been inept and of course this would have taken a huge mental toll on Clarkson. But all this outpouring of sympathy and concern for Clarkson from the media which has seemed to completely forget about and disregard what the firsts nations players have/would be going through has left me feeling sick. This interview from Burt leaves me wondering how it’s possible Clarkson will be “exonerated“ beyond a cynical and frankly disgusting whitewash (pun interneded) and sweeping under the rug.

Exonerated from what? What do you think they are guilty of?

 

[perplexed]

And are you sure you know what semantics mean?

Do you want to have another go at this?

 

[Maxabillions]

Exonerated from what? What do you think they are guilty of?

You would perhaps have noticed my use of quotation marks. Quoting from The Age’s recent reporting. I don’t think it’s stretching plausibility too much to suggest the word came from the AFL.

 

[Number37]

The nub of this particular situation is whether Zac had requested assistance to leave the relationship.
We know that later on things changed and they ended up together but if assistance to leave the relationship at the time was requested then the actions of the three accused aren’t racist.

Indigenous people have been subjected to 'we know what's good for you'/paternalistic behaviour since 1788.

If you're going to employ methods of helping indigenous people that are 'we know what's good for you'/paternalistic then you leave the door wide open for people to see your actions as racist.

There are many damning parts of the story, for Clarko and the others, primarily that they weren't acting ONLY in the best interests of the young lad.

Their sole interest should have been what was best for the young lad, it clearly wasn't.
It clearly wasn't their sole interest because if it was they would referred him to professional help and would have been mindful of interfering personally in someone else's relationship.

 

[Elixuh]

View attachment 1699358
You would perhaps have noticed my use of quotation marks. Quoting from The Age’s recent reporting. I don’t think it’s stretching plausibility too much to suggest the word came from the AFL.

That wasn't my question.

You're making assertions that Clarkson, Burt and Fagan are guilty of something that they need to be exonerated from. What are they guilty of in your view? What is being swept under the rug?

 

[Number37]

That wasn't my question.

You're making assertions that Clarkson, Burt and Fagan are guilty of something that they need to be exonerated from. What are they guilty of in your view? What is being swept under the rug?

In what world is it OK for a footy coach to turn up to your house to end a relationship?

It's as bad as a footy coach telling you to go see this doctor who is going to inject you with unknown but legit substances that is going to help you become a better player.

 

[perplexed]

Would you like to point out what I said that was concerned with linguistics?

How about the bit where you said stuff?

 

[Elixuh]

Indigenous people have been subjected to 'we know what's good for you'/paternalistic behaviour since 1788.

If you're going to employ methods of helping indigenous people that are 'we know what's good for you'/paternalistic then you leave the door wide open for people to see your actions as racist.

The are many damning parts of the story, for Clarko and the others, primarily that they weren't acting ONLY in the best interests of the young lad.

Their sole interest should have been what was best for the young lad, it clearly wasn't.
It clearly wasn't their sole interest because if it was they would referred him to professional help and would have been mindful of interfering personally in someone else's relationship.

100% agree, but I think you're downplaying the uniqueness of the AFL environment and (at a wild guess) that there is a level of what most people would consider unacceptable interference and influence over the lives of players across the competition. I think your view is a pretty unnuanced way of looking at the circumstances. Unless what you're saying is that conduct between difference races where one is negatively affected is always inherently racist.

 

[Maxabillions]

That wasn't my question.

You're making assertions that Clarkson, Burt and Fagan are guilty of something that they need to be exonerated from. What are they guilty of in your view? What is being swept under the rug?

That wasn't my question.

You're making assertions that Clarkson, Burt and Fagan are guilty of something that they need to be exonerated from. What are they guilty of in your view? What is being swept under the rug?

Where was I making that assertion?

I’m not saying they are guilty. I’m saying it doesn’t sit well that the First Nations players seem to have been quite callously forgotten about in this new prevailing narrative in the media.

I’m asking what has been revealed that has damaged the credibility of the allegations. Can you tell me?

 

[Elixuh]

In what world is it OK for a footy coach to turn up to your house to end a relationship?

It's as bad as a footy coach telling you to go see this doctor who is going to inject you with unknown but legit substances that is going to help you become a better player.

???? How does my post that you quoted relate to what you just said.

Problemas con la comprensión?

 

[Elixuh]

Where was I making that assertion?

I’m not saying they are guilty. I’m saying it doesn’t sit well that the First Nations players seem to have been quite callously forgotten about in this new prevailing narrative in the media.

I’m asking what has been revealed that has damaged the credibility of the allegations. Can you tell me?

You were talking about exoneration, sweeping things under the carpet etc etc - your words. What is being swept under the carpet?

 

[Maxabillions]

You were talking about exoneration, sweeping things under the carpet etc etc - your words. What is being swept under the carpet?

I’m not quite sure where you’re going with this but I don’t think it’s nearly as clever as you think.

The allegations that were made that are very much in the public domain and have been dissected and obsessed over in this thread ad nauseam.

Do you want to actually make the point you’re trying to make?

 

[Elixuh]

I’m not quite sure where you’re going with this but I don’t think it’s nearly as clever as you think.

The allegations that were made that are very much in the public domain and have been dissected and obsessed over in this thread ad nauseam.

Do you want to actually make the point you’re trying to make?

I literally can't understand your point which is why I'm asking. You use a lot of words to say nothing of substance.

 

[r_boy]

You were talking about exoneration, sweeping things under the carpet etc etc - your words. What is being swept under the carpet?

Yeah pretty funny. In what world is the AFL or anyone for that matter sweeping anything under the carpet here?

If anything the whole thing has been too open such that it is now plagued by lawyers and public judgment that now is prohibiting what could have been a quiet mediation.

 

[Maxabillions]

I literally can't understand your point which is why I'm asking. You use a lot of words to say nothing of substance.

I’m asking why people seem to be recently just assuming that the allegations made by First Nations players aren’t true. There’s been a lot of noise about Hawthorn and the AFL handling the situation badly, which I don’t disagree with, plus the Phil Egan fraud thing, and it seems like people have equated these things with the allegations not being credible. Which I don’t understand. I’m asking a question.

 

[Number37]

100% agree, but I think you're downplaying the uniqueness of the AFL environment and (at a wild guess) that there is a level of what most people would consider unacceptable interference and influence over the lives of players across the competition. I think your view is a pretty unnuanced way of looking at the circumstances. Unless what you're saying is that conduct between difference races where one is negatively affected is always inherently racist.

The uniqueness of the environment provides nothing more than a cover of plausible deniability.

Often you will hear coaches in pressers talk about CONTROL, "controlling the control-ables".

Coaches love to control everything.
Clarko, Fagan and Burt clearly crossed a line.
That they still can't seem to understand that they did cross a line, should tell you all you need to know.

If Clarko or Fagan don't understand why/how they crossed a line, they shouldn't be coaching again.

 

[Elixuh]

The uniqueness of the environment provides nothing more than a cover of plausible deniability.

Often you will hear coaches in pressers talk about CONTROL, "controlling the control-ables".

Coaches love to control everything.
Clarko, Fagan and Burt clearly crossed a line.
That they still can't seem to understand that they did cross a line, should tell you all you need to know.

If Clarko or Fagan don't understand why/how they crossed a line, they shouldn't be coaching again.

I'm not saying its right, but I think you're underestimating how common unreasonable influence and control over the personal lives of players is comp wide. It isn't something clubs and the AFL want investigation into because my guess is there will be all kinds of horror stories.

I also don't think it is worth speaking factually about this stuff until all of the accounts of those involved are heard. I don't see the point.

 

[Number37]

???? How does my post that you quoted relate to what you just said.

Problemas con la comprensión?

You seemed to be arguing that they haven't done anything wrong and therefore don't need to be exonerated.

It's not a footy coach's job to end a player's relationship.
Clarko seems to think that that kind of thing is part of his job as coach.

 

[Elixuh]

You seemed to be arguing that they haven't done anything wrong and therefore don't need to exonerated.

It's not a footy coach's job to end a player's relationship.
Clarko seems to think that that kind of thing is part of his job as coach.

Nope. My view is speaking about the veracity of the allegations is a waste of time until the accounts of everyone involved are heard and tested. I have consistently maintained this position.

 

[Number37]

I'm not saying its right, but I think you're underestimating how common unreasonable influence and control over the personal lives of players is comp wide. It isn't something clubs and the AFL want investigation into because my guess is there will be all kinds of horror stories.

I also don't think it is worth speaking factually about this stuff until all of the accounts of those involved are heard. I don't see the point.

I understand how common unreasonable influence and control would be in an environment such as professional sport.

"Everybody else is doing it" doesn't make it right.

Of course the AFL doesn't want to expose it's dark side.