All things Politics

[DinoSoar]

It is recognised that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• Use the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates this forum that does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Maggie5 Gone Critical Anzacday Jen2310

 

[JB1975]

it makes you wonder what might have happened to iran if the US/UK didnt like the elected leader in 1953.....

and then you wonder what might have happened to the palestinians if netinyahoo and his mates didnt encourage hamas in its infancy

and there's US invasion of iraq and the various radicals that caused...

etc etc...

and now the US is funding murder in gaza....

I feel sure that Iran would have grown tired of the whole democracy thing.

Why have an elected leader and control over your own natural resources when you can install a handsome puppet who gives oil away for a pittance and promises to be an American lackey in the region?

 

[Markfs]

I feel sure that Iran would have grown tired of the whole democracy thing.

Why have an elected leader and control over your own natural resources when you can install a handsome puppet who gives oil away for a pittance and promises to be an American lackey in the region?

well we grew tired of it

 

[JB1975]

well we grew tired of it

Just realised that my comments on Iran are presumptuous. I should wait until manic has checked in with his Persians before I make statements about so-called 'history'.

 

[sr36]

Just realised that my comments on Iran are presumptuous. I should wait until manic has checked in with his Persians before I make statements about so-called 'history'.

I'm not sure why manicpie is naked when learning about Iran, but hes doing well for a 2500 year old who retired well before the birth of Christ. He's done well to stretch his super and remain self funded. I think he bought shares in Rome

 

[Markfs]

i must admit that i was barracking for the 300 spartans against the persians.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

And just to be clear, the Shah was a vain despot with an expansive 'secret' police which ruthlessly destroyed any semblance of democratic impulse.

He bankrupted the country, spending its money on military purchases and personal gratification.

His rule finally brought a broad-based revolution, which was hijacked by a-hole Ayatollah and associated religious wackjobs. The 'alliance' with progressives didn't fall apart; Khomeini had them butchered.

Manic's musings about the wonders of 1970s Persia are a fantasy from the murk of his own mind.

I have Filipino friends in Bangkok who are huge fans of the current President Bongbong Marcos.

I spent a year in Manila in 86, during the final months of the rule of his father, Ferdinand, the father, and his lovely Imelda, the profiteering president buying her shoes like they were going out of fashion, which with 2000 pairs to be rotated through, each pair's turn taking 6 years to come around again, the shoes certainly did. And I was there when Aquino's wife took power for the yellow movement whose colours adorned the protests that filled the streets.

She was disappointingly weak as a president. She had the popular pre-president appeal of Obama but didn't have a solid enough profile for the presidency. My favourite president was her successor, General Fidel Ramos, a cigar toting military man who my Filipino friends assure me was the country's worst president ever, not best. One of us has read him wrong, and it's not me.

The campaign that swept Bongbong into power was largely generated by social media. Filipinos, at the best of times, select dreadful presidents, and the ease with which memories of Ferdinand's time were erased or altered in the minds of today's electorate spoke volumes about the people's willingness to not so much forgive but forget or resee the past. Or not even give the past a thought and focus entirely on the present.

Filipinos love their politics, evidenced by the number of popular English language newspapers competing for attention. In the mid 80's, there was a genuine fear of secret police, and the killing of Benigno Aquino only confirmed the reasons for those fears. I equate his death with that of Alexei Navalny, two brave politicians who knew that returning home was a death sentence, in Benigno's case, an immediate, pre-planned one. Nobody would openly criticise Marcos after Aquino's assassination in 83, but the trial revealed an elaborate plot to assassinate Aquino involving 26 military figures, with Marcos the puppeteer of the sad affair. His guilt was all too apparent. Two years later, widespread protests removed Marcos. Again, the USA had backed the wrong man - a dictator who suited their military and economic interests.

Only those old enough to have actually lived through Marcos years genuinely know the evil and self avarice of which the man is capable. Only they understand the corruption and cronyism that ran a country, which with a US education system and ready labour force, was expected to become a power house in SEA, rather than the basket case which it has become. The young are oblivious to the reality of the man and his family. A large number of Filipinos are impressed by strong man tactics, supportive of the extra judicial killings of thousands of small time drug criminals and users. There is no accounting for taste, and in selection of presidents, Filipinos certainly have none.

If people in Iran think that life under the old shah was to be aspired to or praised, it's simply because they were not there to experience life at the time.

 

[ZEV]

The comment that kicked our beloved horse off displayed financial prejudice.

But to use an analogy that you'll get, I think the suggestion is more along the lines of:

Someone goes to a Ceasefire rally because they want the deaths of civilians to stop. Everyone is on their side so they get into the rally. The chant: "From the river to the sea, Palestine will always be free" begins. Everyone is on their side so they join in. Then someone carrying a red version of the Aussie flag, burns an Israeli flag and they laugh along with the others on the same side as them. Then before too long, everything creeps from criticism of the Israeli govt to criticism of the Jews and they applaud and cheer because they're all on the same side. And then... We all know where it goes. And that is how it goes.

By the end is there a difference between the person carrying the red Australian flag and the person who went there to protest civilian deaths?

Once again, where is the prejudice?

Your constant over-reliance on analogies leads you to flawed conclusions.

 

[manicpie]

I'm unable to talk to those who opposed the Shah and were murdered for it. They're dead. I'll hunt down some of those who were tortured, but they'd be getting on by now. Some of the Tiananmen square type responses to protestors would also give a few interesting people to talk to.

Accounts like that don't matter though if you've got a mate reminiscing about his younger years - most likely because they were better than his Khomeini experiences.

FFS, stop talking shit. You know what I mean. Mister expert at everything. If you can't talk without being a smartass then move on. Keep getting your garbage from books because you have no idea about reality. You're not even in Melbourne yet you claim to know everything about every player in our team. You must have a crystal ball

 

[Markfs]

FFS, stop talking s**t. You know what I mean. Mister expert at everything. If you can't talk without being a smartass then move on. Keep getting your garbage from books because you have no idea about reality. You're not even in Melbourne yet you claim to know everything about every player in our team. You must have a crystal ball

now now manic. dont get so upset. I get so worried about you. go and have a chat to the persians. It seems to calm you.

 

[sr36]

Once again, where is the prejudice?

Your constant over-reliance on analogies leads you to flawed conclusions.

Did you read my first sentence. You just ran with an "I'm richer than you" jibe.

For other prejudice read bias - if you support and cheer on every comment on one side of the argument, you end up cheering on massacres at music festivals.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

FFS, stop talking s**t. You know what I mean. Mister expert at everything. If you can't talk without being a smartass then move on. Keep getting your garbage from books because you have no idea about reality. You're not even in Melbourne yet you claim to know everything about every player in our team. You must have a crystal ball

You do make an interesting point regarding SR's AFL/VFL knowledge v's his place of residence. Even when in the depths of China during that country's magic pudding-like plague, probably devoid of internet access and starved of his usual tid-bit channels of information, he still managed to read like he was standing alongside Jen on the training track.

SR36 has an extraordinary capacity for extracting information on a kaleidoscope of topics from an infinite range of sources. Sometimes I wonder whether he just makes it all up and hopes it will seem so in depth or obscure that none of us will ever check. I know I don't.

 

[sr36]

FFS, stop talking s**t. You know what I mean. Mister expert at everything. If you can't talk without being a smartass then move on. Keep getting your garbage from books because you have no idea about reality. You're not even in Melbourne yet you claim to know everything about every player in our team. You must have a crystal ball

I don't know what you mean. I don't even know what time frame you're talking about in your discussion of Persia. Your disdain for books and view that knowledge can only be learned from a conversation basically comes down to the belief that one first hand account of history obliterates the millions of primary and secondary accounts of history. It's an astonishing belief.

You seem to think that ciriticism of Israel or the late Shah of Iran is cheerleading support of Hamas atrociities and the current Iranian regime's atrocities. Once again an astonishing belief.

Stick to sport, where there is a clearly defined, black and white, us and them to barrack for. As it seems to be the only way you are capable of view the world.

 

[sr36]

You do make an interesting point regarding SR's AFL/VFL knowledge v's his place of residence. Even when in the depths of China during that country's magic pudding-like plague, probably devoid of internet access and starved of his usual tid-bit channels of information, he still managed to read like he was standing alongside Jen on the training track.

SR36 has an extraordinary capacity for extracting information on a kaleidoscope of topics from an infinite range of sources. Sometimes I wonder whether he just makes it all up and hopes it will seem so in depth or obscure that none of us will ever check. I know I don't.

Chinese internet in the city I lived in was off he charts fast for local sites that aren't going through the Chinese firewall - and that's just data on your phone. Baidu, their version of google was also years ahead of google - when you're going through a VPN to dodge the firewall, and it's on about a par with Adelaide's current internet.t

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

I just put it down to his omnipresence. His knowledge comes from books and television so I have to assume he's always right. Even his footy analysis comes straight out of a couching handbook but that happens when you haven't played footy at a respectable level. I just always appease his expertise

I would see his posts steadily merge with the threads and ponder the time in KL and what he might be doing - taking an English class while simultaneously collecting knowledge on obscure players or topics from unverifiable sources, wondering if the laptop open on his desk shows one side of his life while his words to the class reveal another. Or perhaps he had developed an ingenious way of having his students do the research for him under the guise of knowledge. Or maybe as you suggest he had found a handbook in a couch with an infinite wealth of knowledge on the game and where it's at.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Chinese internet in the city I lived in was off he charts fast for local sites that aren't going through the Chinese firewall - and that's just data on your phone. Baidu, their version of google was also years ahead of google - when you're going through a VPN to dodge the firewall, and it's on about a par with Adelaide's current internet.t

Oh. I was hoping that the government might have throttled it during covid in much the same way they throttled the necks of domestic dogs whose owners had caught the plague when planks of wood weren't handy to cave in the hapless animals' heads.

 

[sr36]

I just put it down to his omnipresence. His knowledge comes from books and television so I have to assume he's always right. Even his footy analysis comes straight out of a couching handbook but that happens when you haven't played footy at a respectable level. I just always appease his expertise

I actually don't rate my knowledge of individual players that highly. I rate my knowledge of patterns and strategy pretty highly as I've coached quite a lot of basketball and most of the modern trends in the game have a direct parallel to basketball strategy and tactics. From the helping man defences to the drilling of fast break running patterns off the back of that sagging defence to adjusting style based on the scoreboard to zoning presses. And a lot who grew up with different tactics just don't get it I don't really get a fair bit of stoppage, except tagger related tactics, as there isn't a direct parallel in basketball. A lot of you old self-funded retiree types who played at a high level stopped learning and think it's still solely about individuals beating your direct opponent.

 

[Markfs]

The NSW and Victorian premiers are still going to have their iftar dinners during ramadan. Both are big supporters of israel as you would expect and defend israel's right to murder civilians in order to protect itself. To me, it's one thing to support the type of behaviour that israel has been indulging in over the last 4 months, but to continue with their PR exercises just demonstrates that these premiers have no concern for the muslim community other than at election time.

The muslim leadership have indicated that they will not attend these dinners. They need to keep a longterm view. I would argue that their jewish equilvalents might attend in similar circumstances, but I'm just speculating.

 

[Markfs]

It's difficult to work out skynews position regarding julian assange. It is trashing albo for being so gutless in advocating for an australian, and yet it's in the prone position when it comes to anything to do with the US relationship. Maybe its just kicking albo for the shear love of it...

Crikey reports that Assange's lawyers say that they have proof that the CIA tried to assassinate Assange. If that the case, skynews is going to have to phone a Rupert for advice...

 

[vindaloo]

Spoke to a Persian at my work this week. Loved the shah. Hated ayatollah khomeini and his regime. Don't know much about the shah to make a judgement for myself, I'm discrediting the bias historians in this thread before I do my own investigation. I know the shah was friendly to the West which people hate in here, absolutely hate!

 

[JB1975]

I know quite a few Australian people. There's a particular group of them I catch up with from time to time, I call them relatives.

Some of them are nice people. No shortage of opinions.

And yet they know about two-fifths of f*** all about Australian politics history. The older ones are pretty sure that the country was better before 'the continentals' arrived. They can't tell you what Australia Day is about, but if the blackfellas don't like it then they're all for it.

Sometimes these Australians venture overseas. The notion that they might be called upon to talk about their country and the idea that their views might be seen as a 'more authentic' representation of Australia is comedy gold.

--------------------------------------------------------

The perspectives of expats or visitors might be interesting, but only the lazy or ignorant would consider it anything more than that.

 

[vindaloo]

So who's the traitor politician? My guess would be Gladys Lui. Thoughts?

 

[JB1975]

So who's the traitor politician? My guess would be Gladys Lui. Thoughts?

Doesn't your curiosity go a bit deeper?

How often do you see photos of Australia's 'spy boss' plastered across every news service in the country, letting everyone know that they've infiltrated the infiltrators?

Doesn't it seem somewhat strange?

And why would he implicate an ex-politician without actually naming them, which was only ever going to set off a pointless guessing game which you've just bought into?

I'd rather that a national security organisation keep its successes to itself.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

I don't think there is. I just checked on your bookshelf and there doesn't seem to be anything about it in "Spot Can Run." Thrilling read nonetheless. I noticed you had a bookmark half way through - don't give up - you can get to the end.

I met a woman yesterday with a small Jack Russell named Spot. I ventured to tell her that it was the first dog name I ever heard, though I wonder now if I am not confusing it with Scottie, the name of the John and Betty dog. The woman humoured me but was too young to have any idea what I was on about.

I used to go out with a teacher who had named her dalmatian Spot. I couldn't think of a worse name for a dalmatian. But given that she had taught '1984' to her Yr 11 English class and assured them it was nothing more than a tale of animals on a farm, nothing to do with Russia or revolution or similar, I was less than surprised that she had chosen Spot for a name.

I was even less surprised when we broke up.

 

[sideswipe]

Doesn't your curiosity go a bit deeper?

How often do you see photos of Australia's 'spy boss' plastered across every news service in the country, letting everyone know that they've infiltrated the infiltrators?

Doesn't it seem somewhat strange?

And why would he implicate an ex-politician without actually naming them, which was only ever going to set off a pointless guessing game which you've just bought into?

I'd rather that a national security organisation keep its successes to itself.

The wording of the articles is a little bit ambiguous. Was the agent an ex-politician at the time of their recruitment or were they still a serving member of parliament? My guess is the former.

 

[sideswipe]

On further consideration, this might be a classic False Flag operation. This is the kind of move that an intelligence chief might make to turn the spotlight away from the real source. That's right, Mike Burgess is the mole.