AFL Industry - Voice Against Gender-Based Violence

[Carn The Berries]

That's already happened for a long time though, as others have said.

I recon there are a lot of men, who despite being told they have male privilege, don't feel that way. This is not mentioned much but it could be a big factor. If you are a shitkicker at work, near the bottom rungs socially, don't have much else going on - then being told about your privilege will piss you off, make you think you are missing out on something you are entitled to. And then that sense of entitlement could manifest in this violent way of exercising power over somebody - at worst, at best it probably just builds resentment toward those people (often women) who tell them they are privileged and entitled.

That's where I personally think the messaging to these guys has been wrong. These men actually need guidance and help in growing into better human beings. There is a missing piece of the puzzle that makes up being an adult. Telling them they are cowards or privileged doesn't help much.

If someone is stuck - would you tell them they are stuck, or that with the advantages society has given them they shouldn't be stuck? Or would you try to help them see and guide them along a path out of there?

Men (especially white ones) are privileged. Men who are violent towards women and children are cowards. If some men don't want to hear that, it's not a reason not to say it.

Men don't walk down the street at night with their car keys in their hand, just in case. Men don't have to think about what they wear, just in case. It doesn't matter whether you're a literal sh1t carter or a CEO, if you're a man you have privileges that women don't. And if blokes wanna have a sook about it that's on them. Men need to start recognising and calling out our privilege, and the impact it has on society, not try and molly coddle people who don't want to hear it.

And if you don't want to be called a coward for bashing your partner, don't f**ing bash your partner.

 

[kickazz]

Men (especially white ones) are privileged. Men who are violent towards women and children are cowards. If some men don't want to hear that, it's not a reason not to say it.

Men don't walk down the street at night with their car keys in their hand, just in case. Men don't have to think about what they wear, just in case. It doesn't matter whether you're a literal sh1t carter or a CEO, if you're a man you have privileges that women don't. And if blokes wanna have a sook about it that's on them. Men need to start recognising and calling out our privilege, and the impact it has on society, not try and molly coddle people who don't want to hear it.

And if you don't want to be called a coward for bashing your partner, don't f**ing bash your partner.

That' all true, but telling an underprivileged man (lets say intellectually disabled, abused as a child for example) to have a sook because they are privileged because they are a man; whilst true (a woman with the same disadvantages on average is less privileged) - I just don't think it's going to achieve anything positive.

It's not about molly coddling, it's about choosing to illuminate the path to a good life and exposing the bad choices (cultivated online in the 'manosphere') for what they are. Yes, it comes down to the individual themselves at the end of the day. But that saying about 'bad things happen when good people do nothing' is one I believe in. And there needs to be some carrot - all stick doesn't work.

 

[Carn The Berries]

That' all true, but telling an underprivileged man (lets say intellectually disabled, abused as a child for example) to have a sook because they are privileged because they are a man; whilst true (a woman with the same disadvantages on average is less privileged) - I just don't think it's going to achieve anything positive.

It's not about molly coddling, it's about choosing to illuminate the path to a good life and exposing the bad choices (cultivated online in the 'manosphere') for what they are. Yes, it comes down to the individual themselves at the end of the day. But that saying about 'bad things happen when good people do nothing' is one I believe in. And there needs to be some carrot - all stick doesn't work.

That's a very specific situation and nothing like you referred to in your original post. Of course people in those situations need to be dealt with a bit more delicately.

I agree it's about setting a good example, but not at the expense of making people aware of the inherent inequities, and how that impacts things like DV.

 

[kickazz]

And if you don't want to be called a coward for bashing your partner, don't f**ing bash your partner.

Yep. Problem solved. Makes you wonder why we bother spending so much money and time on the issue.

 

[Carn The Berries]

Yep. Problem solved. Makes you wonder why we bother spending so much money and time on the issue.

It was a somewhat facetious response to your suggestion that we don't call out this behaviour for what it is... cowardly...

 

[kickazz]

It was a somewhat facetious response to your suggestion that we don't call out this behaviour for what it is... cowardly...

Yeah, as was mine.

I feel there is a lot of nuance in this discussion, but at the same time there is pretty obvious non-negotiables as well, and calling out the behaviour as cowardly is definitely one of them.

 

[Carn The Berries]

Yeah, as was mine.

I feel there is a lot of nuance in this discussion, but at the same time there is pretty obvious non-negotiables as well, and calling out the behaviour as cowardly is definitely one of them.

I totally concur on all accounts

 

[kickazz]

That's a very specific situation and nothing like you referred to in your original post. Of course people in those situations need to be dealt with a bit more delicately.

I agree it's about setting a good example, but not at the expense of making people aware of the inherent inequities, and how that impacts things like DV.

Yeah I used that more extreme example (intellectual disability, abuse) to help clarify a point.

But I still think there is an issue out there with some of the less severe factors that make some men less privileged than others (such as getting paid less than most women due to being short, having a shitter education/job than most women because your parents were poor), it would be a small but significant enough proportion of these that bristle at the mainstream narrative of male privilege, and these are the ones that I worry are ripe for cultivation by the online MRA/misogynist crazies. This shit is real and it is happening. We need to get to them before the bad people do.

But that is a slightly different discussion, this thread is about DV specifically. And at the end of the day, save for the very extreme cases, no matter how 'under privileged' you feel you are as a man, you will always have the physical strength superiority and that must be understood not only as from the point of view of "one must not be violent" but that the spectre of such violence, or the implication that it could happen, unfortunately frames the everyday existence the women live; a framing that men probably never really truly understand or appreciate.

 

[Teen Wolf]

So what happened 100 years ago is relevant now?

To suggest that the AFL isn't trying to grow female participation in the sport, at all levels, is just plain ignorant. You do realise they are almost completely subsidising the AFLW right?

...of course history shapes the present. What I realise is the old "AFLW don't make money" is practically the slogan of domestic abusers (along with "gambling ads made me do it").

I also realise the AFL only started a women's competition once they correctly foresaw it bringing in hundreds of millions of dollars from governments and sponsors by 2019.

They're trying to grow female participation because it's good for the bottom line, not out of any moral obligation.

 

[Carn The Berries]

...of course history shapes the present. What I realise is the old "AFLW don't make money" is practically the slogan of domestic abusers (along with "gambling ads made me do it").

I also realise the AFL only started a women's competition once they correctly foresaw it bringing in hundreds of millions of dollars from governments and sponsors by 2019.

They're trying to grow female participation because it's good for the bottom line, not out of any moral obligation.

I'm sorry, are you accusing me of being a domestic abuser?

The AFL still subsidises AFLW (i.e. the league runs at a loss) so any counter argument that they're only doing it for the money just doesn't stack up.

And why does the AFL's bottom line matter here anyway? Regardless of their motives, they are currently doing more for female participation is sport than any other professional competition.

Like I said, there is plenty of stuff to have a crack at the AFL about. A perceived lack interest in female participation just ain't one. There are plenty of threads on this site where a large amount of people think the exact opposite is true, that the AFL is OVER investing in the female game.

 

[Teen Wolf]

I'm sorry, are you accusing me of being a domestic abuser?

My bet is domestic abusers (in Australia) trot out predictable uninformed statements about AFLW. That you are running with many of the same lines doesn't mean you're a domestic abuser, but it should make you feel embarrassed.

The AFL still subsidises AFLW (i.e. the league runs at a loss) so any counter argument that they're only doing it for the money just doesn't stack up.

I'll say it one more time. AFLW does not run at a loss when factoring in all the money it has generated.

 

[Carn The Berries]

My bet is domestic abusers (in Australia) trot out predictable uninformed statements about AFLW. That you are running with many of the same lines doesn't mean you're a domestic abuser, but it should make you feel embarrassed.


I'll say it one more time. AFLW does not run at a loss when factoring in all the money it has generated.

All the money it has generated you say? Are you able to tell me how much that is? How does that compare to the outgoings, including the substantial increase in average player payments in the new EBA? I'd be very interested to hear what your informed opinion is? Apparently my opinions are uninformed...

 

[SAweagle]

I know this thread is focusing on it a bit, but TT is a distraction and just the most recent example

Carey glassed a woman just 2 years ago and was welcomed back into the AFL fold with open arms for his 8th or 9th chance.
DeGoey had charges downgraded and plead guilty to "harrassment" instead of "forcible touching" of a woman 2 and a bit years ago.
Dani Laidley guilty of stalking and harassing a woman became one of the poster child's for AFL inclusion.

These are all convicted and welcomed back by the AFL with open arms in the last few years.

Hang on mate, this is about men, dani laidley is a women

 

[Beutbrute]

Men (especially white ones) are privileged. Men who are violent towards women and children are cowards. If some men don't want to hear that, it's not a reason not to say it.

Men don't walk down the street at night with their car keys in their hand, just in case. Men don't have to think about what they wear, just in case. It doesn't matter whether you're a literal sh1t carter or a CEO, if you're a man you have privileges that women don't. And if blokes wanna have a sook about it that's on them. Men need to start recognising and calling out our privilege, and the impact it has on society, not try and molly coddle people who don't want to hear it.

And if you don't want to be called a coward for bashing your partner, don't f**ing bash your partner.

Victims of Homocide by sex in Australia 2022-2023 as follows:
Male: 133 at a rate of 1.04 per 100,000
Female 58 at a rate of 0.45 per 100,000

The data tells us men are twice as likely to be murdered as women. That is not what i would call privilege.

Men are also more likely be a perpetrator of homocides and that is an issue but is a different thing to simply saying all men are privileged.

 

[Kappa]

Here's an idea for the AFL, lifetime bans for any player/administrator /media accreditation holder found guilty of domestic violence/ gender based violence.

Do that and they can be taken seriously, otherwise it's just words which will be contradicted by actions when TT, or equivalent gets their 2nd, 3rd, 4th chance.

So if they bash a male they can come back, if they bash a female it's 10 times worse?

 

[Carn The Berries]

Victims of Homocide by sex in Australia 2022-2023 as follows:
Male: 133 at a rate of 1.04 per 100,000
Female 58 at a rate of 0.45 per 100,000

The data tells us men are twice as likely to be murdered as women. That is not what i would call privilege.

Men are also more likely be a perpetrator of homocides and that is an issue but is a different thing to simply saying all men are privileged.

FFS... All men ARE privileged, particularly when you compare their lived experiences to those of women. Here's a fun little exercise for you to do... Spend some time talking about this with a female in your life. Ask them about adaptations that they make in their lives, just to be careful. Ask them if they've ever been inappropriately talked to, touched, etc. Ask them if they believe they have ever missed out on something due to a less deserving man getting it instead.

THAT is the privilege I am talking about, and no amount of statistics will ever change that.

 

[Carn The Berries]

So if they bash a male they can come back, if they bash a female it's 10 times worse?

When the AFL is actively advocating for a stop to domestic violence (as opposed to other sorts of violence, which are equally inappropriate) then a separation is valid.

 

[Toump Ass]

North Melbourne Kangaroo Legend Wayne Carey and convicted Sex Pest smashes a glass into his partner's face, still see his face on TV.
Gets caught with over the counter antihistamines, lifetime ban from all football related media.

That's the world we live in folks.

 

[burge13]

Men (especially white ones) are privileged. Men who are violent towards women and children are cowards. If some men don't want to hear that, it's not a reason not to say it.

Men don't walk down the street at night with their car keys in their hand, just in case. Men don't have to think about what they wear, just in case. It doesn't matter whether you're a literal sh1t carter or a CEO, if you're a man you have privileges that women don't. And if blokes wanna have a sook about it that's on them. Men need to start recognising and calling out our privilege, and the impact it has on society, not try and molly coddle people who don't want to hear it.

And if you don't want to be called a coward for bashing your partner, don't f**ing bash your partner.

Women have other privileges that men don't too. Life isn't equal, nor fair

This line just loses all credibility at this point. You want people to come together for a common cause then trot out utter bullshit.

 

[Carn The Berries]

Women have other privileges that men don't too. Life isn't equal, nor fair

This line just loses all credibility at this point. You want people to come together for a common cause then trot out utter bullshit.

Would love to know your thoughts on what privileges women have, particularly in the context of their own physical and emotional safety? What areas of life do they have ingrained entitlements that men don't have?

 

[burge13]

Would love to know your thoughts on what privileges women have, particularly in the context of their own physical and emotional safety? What areas of life do they have ingrained entitlements that men don't have?

No one buys me drinks in bars or pays for first dates
There are no 'men in leadership' quotas at work

In terms of safety, no one is walking down a dark alley without looking over their shoulder. Do women have more physical threats? Yes, absolutely, yet we're constantly being told women can do everything men can do. Why is their physical test to get into the police force easier? Seems some privilege

You've have a shocker with the male privilege stuff. Blokes being lectured and told we're the problem when 99.9% aren't, is doing no favours at all. Label me all you like, I'm right

 

[burge13]

North Melbourne Kangaroo Legend Wayne Carey and convicted Sex Pest smashes a glass into his partner's face, still see his face on TV.
Gets caught with over the counter antihistamines, lifetime ban from all football related media.

That's the world we live in folks.

It was coke he had at the casino wasn't it? Claimed it was crushed up antihistamines but who would do that?!

 

[Tippett2Goal]

Hang on mate, this is about men, dani laidley is a women

I thought the thread was about violence against women and the AFL's hypocrisy/tokenism...

So if they bash a male they can come back, if they bash a female it's 10 times worse?

whataboutism at its best.

 

[Teen Wolf]

All the money it has generated you say? Are you able to tell me how much that is? How does that compare to the outgoings, including the substantial increase in average player payments in the new EBA? I'd be very interested to hear what your informed opinion is? Apparently my opinions are uninformed...

So now you're interested in the exact figures, despite claiming "AFLW runs at a loss" with no supporting figures? Like I said, predictable. Here is some stuff I've outlined in previous threads:

The AFL has spent $165m on AFLW to date. This figure is easily eclipsed by just a few examples of the funding it has brought in for upgraded facilities which are mostly used by the men's teams. $30m for Brisbane, $35m for Carlton, $40m for the Bulldogs, $40m for Sydney, $30m for Hawthorn.

Already at $175m, and I could go on for a long time, not just with funding but also sponsorship (clubs attract $500k+ p/a from just one deal). The AFL doesn't promote this because they like to pretend they're supporting financially non-viable women in football out of the goodness of their hearts, which fuels the sexist AFLW rhetoric you've channelled in this thread.

 

[Toump Ass]

It was coke he had at the casino wasn't it? Claimed it was crushed up antihistamines but who would do that?!

Are you saying Wayne lied to me?
That's outrageous.