- May 3, 2017
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St. Kilda actually beat Fitzroy in the 1913 grand final but that stupid challenge system was in place then Fitzroy beat us in the second game
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AFL Grand Final Grand Final Win-Loss Records
- Thread starter GC2015
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Correct.
Teams that challenged but failed:
Eseendon 1898
Fitzroy 1900
Collingwood 1905
Carlton 1910
South Melbourne 1912
Collingwood 1915
Carlton 1916
Carlton 1921
Collingwood 1922
Collingwood 1926
Teams that challenged and succeeded:
Collingwood 1902
South Melbourne 1909
Fitzroy 1913
Carlton 1914
Collingwood 1917
Collingwood 1919
Richmond 1920
Essendon 1923
Geelong 1925
Collingwood 1929
Collingwood 1930
- Oct 25, 2001
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I mean, all clubs played under the same rules, and they wanted to build in a benefit for finishing top.
No system is perfect and it wouldn't fly today (with booking venues for "maybe" finals), but I'm not seeing the injustice in this?
- Banned
- #29
The challenge system is no more bizarre than the McIntyre final eight that ran from 1994-99
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This century (not including QLD and WA GFs):
Teams that have won the grand final against an MCG tenant:
5: 2002, 2003, 2011, 2012, 2018
MCG tenants that have beaten a non-tenant:
8: 2008, 2010, 2013-15, 2017, 2019, 2023
non tenant v non tenant: 9 times.
tenant v tenant has yet to happen in league history.
- Oct 25, 2001
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How bad was 1992? We came 3rd on percentage with the same points as WC and Geelong and got to play 6th away.
Loewe too good for us that day, would've lost at the G anyway but it was a bad look.
Melbourne are an interesting club, in that they have been highly successful in the Grand Finals they have played in (72.2% win rate, thanks OP), have won plenty of them overall (13), and yet, at the same time have been rather mediocre for very large chunks of their history (with an overall winning % of just 46.2.. the same as the Bulldogs).
Compare those stats with the Swans, who, despite having a superior overall win rate of 48.6%, also have 8 less Premierships (5). This is also despite the Swans playing in 1 more GF than the Demons (19 compared to 18) for a measley 26.3% win rate in the big ones.
The Demons have also quite incredibly won 10 of their 13 Premierships in just a 26 year period from 1939 - 1964. There were also 3 GF losses in this period in 1946, 1954 & 1958.
Thus, In the remaining 102 years outside this period, they have only been involved in 5 Grand Finals in 1900, 1926, 1988, 2000 & 2021 for 3 wins.
Hope I got most of that right, but don't shoot me if I didn't.
Compare those stats with the Swans, who, despite having a superior overall win rate of 48.6%, also have 8 less Premierships (5). This is also despite the Swans playing in 1 more GF than the Demons (19 compared to 18) for a measley 26.3% win rate in the big ones.
The Demons have also quite incredibly won 10 of their 13 Premierships in just a 26 year period from 1939 - 1964. There were also 3 GF losses in this period in 1946, 1954 & 1958.
Thus, In the remaining 102 years outside this period, they have only been involved in 5 Grand Finals in 1900, 1926, 1988, 2000 & 2021 for 3 wins.
Hope I got most of that right, but don't shoot me if I didn't.
Richmond have only been beaten by one team in Grand Finals since 1945. That team was Carlton in both 1972 & 1982.
Richmond has won 8 Grand Finals in this period. V Carlton 1969 & 1972. V Geelong 1967 & 2020. V Collingwood 1980. V Adelaide 2017. V GWS 2019. V North Melbourne 1974.
Richmond held a home ground advantage in 9 of those Grand Finals for a 7w 2l record. In 2020 Richmond had an away ground disadvantage in the GF but emerged victorious.
It is difficult to calculate and quantify the home advantage of playing a Grand Final on your home ground and it may be negligible as I have read one study that concluded the majority of the HGA at most grounds comes from the home crowd, which is not such a factor in GF's. But you can't imagine too many teams who play home games at the MCG have been gutted to play GF's there against teams that don't.
Another reason most MCG tenants may do well in GF's is because they probably need to be a better team to get there. They don't get to train on their home ground. And their home & away itineraries can be challenging. In 2024 for eg here was Richmond's breakdown of home, away, & neutral venue matches:
neutral where neither team uses their home ground: 1 match(Gather Rnd)
neutral where both teams play a significant amount of home games at the ground: 7 matches
unique home ground advantage where visiting team does not play a significant amount of home games at the MCG: 6 matches
unique away disadvantage where Richmond does not play a significant amount of home games at the venue: 9 matches
*1 or less home games per season at a venue is not considered significant
Hawthorn is another team with a very strong GF record who faces a more challenging home & away path than most teams to make finals.
Richmond has won 8 Grand Finals in this period. V Carlton 1969 & 1972. V Geelong 1967 & 2020. V Collingwood 1980. V Adelaide 2017. V GWS 2019. V North Melbourne 1974.
Richmond held a home ground advantage in 9 of those Grand Finals for a 7w 2l record. In 2020 Richmond had an away ground disadvantage in the GF but emerged victorious.
It is difficult to calculate and quantify the home advantage of playing a Grand Final on your home ground and it may be negligible as I have read one study that concluded the majority of the HGA at most grounds comes from the home crowd, which is not such a factor in GF's. But you can't imagine too many teams who play home games at the MCG have been gutted to play GF's there against teams that don't.
Another reason most MCG tenants may do well in GF's is because they probably need to be a better team to get there. They don't get to train on their home ground. And their home & away itineraries can be challenging. In 2024 for eg here was Richmond's breakdown of home, away, & neutral venue matches:
neutral where neither team uses their home ground: 1 match(Gather Rnd)
neutral where both teams play a significant amount of home games at the ground: 7 matches
unique home ground advantage where visiting team does not play a significant amount of home games at the MCG: 6 matches
unique away disadvantage where Richmond does not play a significant amount of home games at the venue: 9 matches
*1 or less home games per season at a venue is not considered significant
Hawthorn is another team with a very strong GF record who faces a more challenging home & away path than most teams to make finals.
Is North v Carlton 1999 the last tenant v tenant? Not 100% sure North back then
A more obvious reason is that MCG tenants play the GF at their home ground, where they have played more football than anywhere else, and played at the venue much more than anybody else unless they face a fellow MCG tenant in the GF (how often have we had that in the AFL era?).
Of course it is
- Thread starter
- #37
I'd like to agree with you, but my understanding is the AFL have gone out of their way to officially keep them separate out of respect for Fitzroy. Doesn't really make sense because you'd think a "merged" club (yes, I know there is conjecture over whether it really was merged or not) would assume all records from both clubs or would just start again from scratch, but that's not how the AFL does it. It's a really weird situation where Brownlow Medallists from Fitzroy are recognised in Brisbane's history and premierships aren't.
Percel
Victorian’s love a good potato scallop
Extraordinary that Collingwood has featured in 43/129 grand finals
33% of all GFs is ridiculous .
33% of all GFs is ridiculous .
From 1983 onwards it is 7 GF's in 42 years. So all the damage was done prior to that with 36 appearances in 87 years.
You have to remember too there were a substantial amount of years with 8, 9, 10 & even 4 teams in the competition. And when the competition expanded in 1925 to 12 teams, the 3 new clubs did not appear in a GF between them for 24 years.
Collingwood were Premier or runner-up in 23 of the first 44 seasons of the competition.
But to put this into some perspective....
Richmond were Premier or runner-up 15 times from 1919 to 1944(26 seasons)
Fitzroy were Premier or runner-up 12 times 1897-1923(27 seasons.)
Essendon 22 of the first 72 seasons & 29 of the first 105 seasons.
Melbourne 13 in 26 seasons 1939-1964.
Carlton 29 of the first 103 seasons & 10 of the first 25 seasons.
Hawthorn 12 of 21 years 1971 to 1991.
These 1/4 century runs of clubs finishing top 2 anywhere from 40-60% of the time were possible due to the Saints & Bulldogs(forever) Swans(for 50 years), North(mostly) & Fitzroy for their last 50+ years just barely finishing top 2, in some of those cases not at all.
Carlton were still Princes Park then.
Given Melb was only MCG tenant until Richmond joined 1964 and that those Melb clubs now tenants joined predominantly 2000 onwards, your statement that there has never been a tenant v tenant GF is true
Ironically, the closest thing was Richmond v Geelong in 2020, which was played at the Gabba.
How's that close?
Geelong isn't a tenant
I'd suggest closest was Essendon and Carlton 1993
16 premierships is 16 premierships.
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Collingwood were by far the biggest benefactors of the right to challenge system.
If it wasn't for that they would've had five less premierships and Carlton would only have the one.
Carlton only had two MCG home games in 1993. 2000 with Melbourne (eight MCG home games) and Essendon (four MCG home games) is probably the closest there's been to two MCG tenants in a Grand Final, on top of that Essendon had been an MCG tenant from 1992 until the year prior.
Cats play multiple home games at the G every year, therefore they are a co-tenant.
- Apr 30, 2015
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The thread is about Grand Final wins and losses.
If 2 home games a year makes Cats a tenant club to suit the argument then Pies Geelong 2011 GF is the last one
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Had to google:
"Why was there no VFL grand final in 1924?
The Bombers achieved ultimate glory in 1924, amid a new round robin system introduced by the VFL. The VFL introduced a round robin system for the top four teams at the end of the season - very similar to that used in 1897. It proved unpopular with supporters, who stayed away in droves, and it was never repeated."
"Why was there no VFL grand final in 1924?
The Bombers achieved ultimate glory in 1924, amid a new round robin system introduced by the VFL. The VFL introduced a round robin system for the top four teams at the end of the season - very similar to that used in 1897. It proved unpopular with supporters, who stayed away in droves, and it was never repeated."
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