Expansion QLD and NSW academies

[jonnobackpocket]

You can point out just about any team over a 40-50 year period and say they traded or attracted a big name player over that timeframe. To claim this is proof of some disadvantage at work is incredibly stupid.

I guess you reckon Sydney should have their academy stripped becuause they attracted plugger in the 90’s?? Very dumb logic

Yet your logic of a team with an academy won a premiership (for the first time mind you), so its unfair is brilliant.

 

[GC2015]

It was a slightly tongue in cheek in response to the deliberately disingenuous narrative you were trying to push earlier.

Listing the high draft picks attached to Gary Rohan, Lachie Henderson, and Shaun Higgins from when they were teenagers as if that had any actual relevance to the topic whatsoever.

All three of Rohan, Higgins and Henderson were almost entirely mocked as acquisitions when they arrived at Geelong, and the last thing anyone was considering is where they were drafted 10-15 years before arriving there.

One for being a geriatric, and the other two considered average at best - or in Rohan's case - a running AFL punchline.

I don't know if you just have a completely warped memory of the years of jokes that followed those recruits, but presenting it as if Geelong picked up three champion high draft picks was just ridiculous.

It would be like me calling Michael Barlow a high profile recruit for the Suns, because he was once a great footballer, and then deliberately leaving out the fact that it was 2017 and he was well past his peak, and no other clubs wanted him.

I'll get back to you when we pick up Chayce Jones or Denver Grainger-Barrass this year. They're former top 10 picks, they have to be awesome recruits, right?

The reason those specific players were brought up is because they were all Falcons juniors. That was the point I was trying to get across that there was a long history of Falcons juniors requesting trades home to the Cats. Some were stars like Patrick Dangerfield and others weren't, but the point was there is a geographical advantage that's attached to being the only club based in Geelong. That was the original point, if you go back and look at the first post you quoted.

Bringing up trade ins that have performed for the Cats and aren't Falcons juniors like Jeremy Cameron, Zach Tuohy, Rhys Stanley etc wouldn't have been relevant to the point I was making. That's a completely separate discussion point, if you want to go there.

I was hoping you'd say that.

Sure, we generally do get the pick of the bunch so to speak on Falcons who are looking to come home. There's no doubt about that.

Okay so you can at least admit that Falcons juniors tend to request trades to the Cats more than other clubs. We're making progress here with the geographical discussion.

Generally, what we don't get access to though is Victorians looking to come home who are from the Melbourne CBD/Vic Metro area.

Same thing with draftees who'd prefer to stay in Melbourne than be drafted to Geelong, and that shows in the clubs recruiting.

It goes both ways, and I'm not complaining about it either. We're not unfairly disadvantaged at all. These are just some of the inadequacies that come with playing in a sporting competition.

It's just equally moronic to pretend it's an advantage too, though.

As you said yourself

Well, that might be about to change if your club ends up being successful in its pursuit of Matt Rowell. We'll see how that plays out. However, you did just get Bailey Smith and he grew up in Melbourne. So that proves the opposite of what you're suggesting. High end draft pick who has played very high level footy in the AFL and is preferencing playing in Geelong instead of staying in Melbourne.

Why do you think Bailey Smith asked to be traded to the Cats? The Bulldogs played finals last year and were in the GF just a few years ago so it's not that. Could it be that he got sick of the Melbourne bubble and likes the idea of living in a smaller coastal town where he won't be bothered as much while still being an hour or so car ride away from his friends and family in Melbourne? This is the kind of relaxed lifestyle Geelong can offer players from Melbourne.

 

[thistimeforsure]

It’s the messing with the draft that’s the problem

Time to look at it from another angle

F/A’s , Academy and NGA players get a ?? % lifetime salary cap reduction for the eligible club

Draft gets cleaned up and I think most players wind up where they should eventually


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[Taper]

You really don't understand how the draft works, do you? You're trying so hard to push the narrative that the only reason Geelong lost to Brisbane last year is because of the northern academies. It's simply not true. Only 3 of the 23 players that lined up for Brisbane in the GF came from their academy. It's time to accept the fact that Brisbane not only outperformed Geelong on the field, but also in trades, free agency and drafting.

It's still an advantage, like how the retention allowance was an advantage to Brisbane when they won flags in 2001, 2002 and 2003.

 

[GC2015]

It's still an advantage, like how the retention allowance was an advantage to Brisbane when they won flags in 2001, 2002 and 2003.

Sure, but in this case it only had a minor influence on Brisbane winning the flag last year. The far bigger influence had to do with things that every club has access to like trading, free agency, non-academy drafting etc.

In the AFL, you've got manufactured advantages and natural advantages. The northern academies are a manufactured advantage designed to grow the game in expansion markets and even the playing field against teams that have natural advantages that don't exist for the northern teams. Geelong has several natural advantages that come from being based in a footy state / Victoria / Geelong when compared to any of the four northern clubs. As has been detailed in earlier posts in this thread.

The league will never be 100% even and fair, but the AFL are trying very hard to grow the game in QLD & NSW because they know it will pay greater long term dividends than any other area in Australia. If we ever get to a point where either northern state is regularly producing the same level of draftees as WA or SA then I think you would naturally see the northern academies wound back, but we're a long way off that.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

It's still an advantage, like how the retention allowance was an advantage to Brisbane when they won flags in 2001, 2002 and 2003.

Imagine struggling so much with a result in 2024 you have a sook about what happened over 20 years ago, or having a whinge about the team who beat you using the draft exactly the way it was designed. You are exactly the kind of fan that makes it so satisfying to beat Geelong. Just an excuse making, whinging, whiney little sook.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Depends on the individual. Some want the city life and would preference Melbourne/Brisbane and others like the idea of a smaller regional area along a coastline like the Surf Coast-Geelong/Gold Coast. Then you have really unique cases like Joe Daniher who hated the city life in Melbourne and chose to live in the regional coast town of Byron Bay and in doing so had to travel more than two hours each way to get to Brisbane. It really just comes down to the individual, but I think it's unfair to say Surf Coast-Geelong area was never been seen as a desirable area to live prior to the Cats' recent successes. It becomes MORE desirable when the local team is performing well and I think we'll see that occur with my team as well once we start playing finals.

Our clubs are similar in the sense that we're the only ones that can offer players the opportunity to live, train and play outside a capital city. However, the major difference is that your club is based in a footy heartland area where the club/players are revered by the locals, whereas the Suns are based in a traditional rugby league area. Lots of kids grow up in the Surf Coast-Geelong area dreaming of pulling on the hoops one day. This is simply not the case on the Gold Coast for most kids. Hopefully that changes over the coming decades and that's a big part of the reason the northern academies exist, but right now it's not the case.


The difference is the Cats are the only team based in Geelong so they get all the benefits for themselves, whereas teams in Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth end up sharing the talent e.g. the Crows get Rankine and Port get Horne-Francis. Dangerfield wanted to live and raise a family in Moggs Creek and realistically that meant he was only ever going to play for the Cats. He was of course a Falcons junior as well so it was a homecoming for Danger too. If he was from Perth then he'd have to choose between two clubs, as we saw last year with Bolton going to Freo and Baker going to West Coast.


Fair enough. It was just interesting that one Geelong fan claimed hardship from 30 years ago and then a few posts later another Geelong fan claimed hardship from 20 years ago. But I take your point.


Better than average? Ottens was the number 2 pick who was turning 25 years old and entering his physical prime + had already been selected in the AA team just a few years before making the move to the Cats. That's greater than 'better-than-average' in my books, but maybe we have different ideas of what that means. He certainly had a better-than-average career with Geelong that included winning three flags.

The reason Ottens was brought up was because you claimed 20 years ago you couldn't pay someone enough to head down the highway and join the Cats. That's objectively untrue and Ottens is the proof of it when he joined the Cats from Richmond exactly 20 years ago.


I'll give you credit for at least acknowledging this. Most Victorians I've encountered won't concede anything on this topic, so I appreciate that. Well done.


Comparing Geelong's advantages to other Victorian clubs is a completely different discussion. There's so many factors that go into it and I'm sure people could make a strong argument either way. Being the only club in Victoria to have a true home ground advantage would be a pretty strong point to make... but that's a discussion for a different thread.


You've missed the point again. Ablett Sr was brought up because you claimed Geelong couldn't attract anyone 30 years ago, when in actuality they attracted the biggest name of all during that era. You can't retrospectively claim hardship when there's evidence to the contrary. 30 years ago your club was playing in GFs and had the best player in the AFL (possibly the best of all time) running around in the hoops.

We attracted Garry ablett senior in 1984 so 41 years ago. I assume you think Gold Coast is good at attracting players also because it lured gaz jnr 15 years ago?? around those decades Geelong couldn’t attract anyone for a very long period of time ( again use common sense what this means in the context of decades).

This only really changed since ( surprise surprise) we became a winning team in 04-07 onwards.

I do think geographies come into it, but this changes very frequently. Academies are not free for all and should be eliminated.

All of these hypothetical advantages you carry on about I think are just an excuse to ignore the hard work of well run clubs and excuse your own getting an exclusive academy no one else has access to

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Yet your logic of a team with an academy won a premiership (for the first time mind you), so its unfair is brilliant.

You don’t think Sydney and GWS have ongoing success due to academies???

I think if you removed those academy boys the “bloods” culture would be truly revealed

 

[GC2015]

We attracted Garry ablett senior in 1984 so 41 years ago. I assume you think Gold Coast is good at attracting players also because it lured gaz jnr 15 years ago?? around those decades Geelong couldn’t attract anyone for a very long period of time ( again use common sense what this means in the context of decades).

This only really changed since ( surprise surprise) we became a winning team in 04-07 onwards.

Mate, what are you talking about? There were plenty of prominent players in the late 80s & early 90s that the Cats convinced to join them who weren't originally from Geelong. Ever heard of Mark Bairstow? The Cats pinched him from South Fremantle. Dwayne Russell from South Australia, Billy Brownless from New South Wales, Garry Hocking from Cobram, Ken Hinkley from Fitzroy, John Barnes from Essendon. What is it with Geelong fans and rewriting history to imply hardship when there's evidence that shows the opposite actually occurred?

I do think geographies come into it, but this changes very frequently. Academies are not free for all and should be eliminated.

All of these hypothetical advantages you carry on about I think are just an excuse to ignore the hard work of well run clubs and excuse your own getting an exclusive academy no one else has access to

That's hilarious. So you do think Geelong has a geographical advantage, but that's fine and should be retained because it "changes very frequently" (your opinion) but each of the northern academies occasionally producing a draft worthy talent that has a geographical tie to a northern state is absolutely unacceptable and should be removed. Unbelievable logic.

Now I know you're going to say the northern academies can continue running and they just need to remove the priority access / have the AFL run them, but that doesn't do what you think it will. All that does is kill the production of draftable talent from the northern states like we saw with the NGAs when first + second round priority access was removed. Now that it's back, watch how many draftable NGA prospects start popping up over the next few years because the clubs have incentive to develop the juniors once again.

Geelong are obviously a well run club and have been for over a decade now. I'll never deny that. As for my club supposedly getting this massive advantage of academy access to local juniors, we're 14 years in and haven't play finals once. If it was really such a huge advantage then I think we would've played finals at least once by now.

 

[.Shotties.]

You don’t think Sydney and GWS have ongoing success due to academies???

I think if you removed those academy boys the “bloods” culture would be truly revealed

I think if you stopped any team drafting from their home state in the main draft, not have any (or to match the Swans' record, one) trade requests home from any home state players and forced them to continually maintain a list of 90% interstate players they'd struggle.

 

[Kobe Gryant]

You don’t think Sydney and GWS have ongoing success due to academies???

I think if you removed those academy boys the “bloods” culture would be truly revealed

They don't. They've won a combined one premiership since the academies were introduced.

It's just not worth the carry on. If we were in a period of northern dominance, and the four clubs were tossing the cup back and forth every year then the carry on might have some legitimacy.

Until then, it's just nauseating commentary about an issue that hasn't yet actually caused any damage to the game.

It's seriously reminiscent of the fear mongering you see in politics.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Mate, what are you talking about? There were plenty of prominent players in the late 80s & early 90s that the Cats convinced to join them who weren't originally from Geelong. Ever heard of Mark Bairstow? The Cats pinched him from South Fremantle. Dwayne Russell from South Australia, Billy Brownless from New South Wales, Garry Hocking from Cobram, Ken Hinkley from Fitzroy, John Barnes from Essendon. What is it with Geelong fans and rewriting history to imply hardship when there's evidence that shows the opposite actually occurred?


That's hilarious. So you do think Geelong has a geographical advantage, but that's fine and should be retained because it "changes very frequently" (your opinion) but each of the northern academies occasionally producing a draft worthy talent that has a geographical tie to a northern state is absolutely unacceptable and should be removed. Unbelievable logic.

Now I know you're going to say the northern academies can continue running and they just need to remove the priority access / have the AFL run them, but that doesn't do what you think it will. All that does is kill the production of draftable talent from the northern states like we saw with the NGAs when first + second round priority access was removed. Now that it's back, watch how many draftable NGA prospects start popping up over the next few years because the clubs have incentive to develop the juniors once again.

Geelong are obviously a well run club and have been for over a decade now. I'll never deny that. As for my club supposedly getting this massive advantage of academy access to local juniors, we're 14 years in and haven't play finals once. If it was really such a huge advantage then I think we would've played finals at least once by now.

You just described how afl clubs recruited players in your first paragraph. I sure hope geelong pre draft era could entice a player outside of geelong regional area to come play for us. You seem on another planet with your thoughts. Literally every club did this because it was the only way to recruit.

The idea of giving out draft concenssions because players have differing personal preferences where to live is very moronic. And of cause this changes. Are you saying geographies don’t change with time?? Didn’t realize Melbourne and geelong is the same as it was 40 years ago.

all I am interested in is equality of opportunity. Whatever one club has access to all should have access to. Development academies are only available to a select few northern clubs.

Give this access to all clubs in these large heavily populated areas to help cough cough… * grow the game*. Which we both know you or anyone else north couldn’t give a stuff about.

If you are actually interested in growing the game then let all clubs invest and increase the expansion rate.. or if this isn’t the case, hand it back to the AFL.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

They don't. They've won a combined one premiership since the academies were introduced.

It's just not worth the carry on. If we were in a period of northern dominance, and the four clubs were tossing the cup back and forth every year then the carry on might have some legitimacy.

Until then, it's just nauseating commentary about an issue that hasn't yet actually caused any damage to the game.

It's seriously reminiscent of the fear mongering you see in politics.

Sydney has hardly missed finals over a long period of time due to academies.

You put a fire out when it begins, not once it is blazing out of control

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I think if you stopped any team drafting from their home state in the main draft, not have any (or to match the Swans' record, one) trade requests home from any home state players and forced them to continually maintain a list of 90% interstate players they'd struggle.

Draft those players with your own pick then in the National draft, or simply entice them to come back via the trade later on. Apparently this has given geelong such a huge advantage I keep hearing so it should also work for Sydney

 

[GC2015]

You just described how afl clubs recruited players in your first paragraph. I sure hope geelong pre draft era could entice a player outside of geelong regional area to come play for us. You seem on another planet with your thoughts. Literally every club did this because it was the only way to recruit.

So what you're suggesting is - Geelong did exactly what other clubs did in terms of recruiting players back then and weren't disadvantaged? I'm glad we cleared that up. Now we can move on from that false narrative you were pushing.

The idea of giving out draft concenssions because players have differing personal preferences where to live is very moronic. And of cause this changes. Are you saying geographies don’t change with time?? Didn’t realize Melbourne and geelong is the same as it was 40 years ago.

Then I guess the AFL is moronic, based on your definition. Fortunately, they're not listening to people like you when making decisions on the future growth of the game.

all I am interested in is equality of opportunity. Whatever one club has access to all should have access to. Development academies are only available to a select few northern clubs.

Give this access to all clubs in these large heavily populated areas to help cough cough… * grow the game*. Which we both know you or anyone else north couldn’t give a stuff about.

It's just not going to happen, mate. The league is never going to be 100% equal, no matter what the AFL does.

I'll speak for myself. I care deeply about the growth of the game up here. I grew up in Queensland (before the Suns existed) in a time when Aussie rules was barely a blip on the radar and copped all kinds of abuse for playing/following it. I don't want the next generation of Queenslanders to go through what I went through and I want them to have the opportunity to play and follow our great game without fear of abuse.

If you are actually interested in growing the game then let all clubs invest and increase the expansion rate.. or if this isn’t the case, hand it back to the AFL.

I'll make it really simple for you. Development academies (northern & NGA) are designed to increase participation rates in areas/communities that aren't well represented at the draft. That includes Queenslanders, New South Welshmen, Indigenous players and players from mutilcultural backgrounds. Understand?

 

[.Shotties.]

Draft those players with your own pick then in the National draft, or simply entice them to come back via the trade later on. Apparently this has given geelong such a huge advantage I keep hearing so it should also work for Sydney

If Sydney produced the volume and quality in every round of the draft I'd agree with you. If Sydney's academy went into the draft we'd have had the chance to select one of those players without reaching into the next round to do so.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

So what you're suggesting is - Geelong did exactly what other clubs did in terms of recruiting players back then and weren't disadvantaged? I'm glad we cleared that up. Now we can move on from that false narrative you were pushing.


Then I guess the AFL is moronic, based on your definition. Fortunately, they're not listening to people like you when making decisions on the future growth of the game.


It's just not going to happen, mate. The league is never going to be 100% equal, no matter what the AFL does.

I'll speak for myself. I care deeply about the growth of the game up here. I grew up in Queensland (before the Suns existed) in a time when Aussie rules was barely a blip on the radar and copped all kinds of abuse for playing/following it. I don't want the next generation of Queenslanders to go through what I went through and I want them to have the opportunity to play and follow our great game without fear of abuse.


I'll make it really simple for you. Development academies (northern & NGA) are designed to increase participation rates in areas/communities that aren't well represented at the draft. That includes Queenslanders, New South Welshmen, Indigenous players and players from mutilcultural backgrounds. Understand?

No the AFL doesn’t create academies because of preferences of where players want to live lol. again, if this is the case for academies to grow the game then let’s increase the participation and investment by allowing all clubs to have academies across northern metropolitan areas. This will exponentially increase the rate of growth…understand?

 

[geelong_crazy26]

If Sydney produced the volume and quality in every round of the draft I'd agree with you. If Sydney's academy went into the draft we'd have had the chance to select one of those players without reaching into the next round to do so.

Then you can trade for them later on instead to bring them home. Sydney has no issues with player retention or attraction. You do a better job of it than alot of Vic clubs.

I am all for academies as long as we give all the same opportunity in similar metropolitan populated areas

 

[.Shotties.]

Then you can trade for them later on instead to bring them home. Sydney has no issues with player retention or attraction. You do a better job of it than alot of Vic clubs.

Would you be willing to strike Geelong from access to home state players in the main draft?

I am all for academies as long as we give all the same opportunity in similar metropolitan populated areas

Somehow I don't think you're thinking of areas like the hunter or shoal haven where football isn't the main choice and there aren't existing pathways.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Would you be willing to strike Geelong from access to home state players in the main draft?

Somehow I don't think you're thinking of areas like the hunter or shoal haven where football isn't the main choice and there aren't existing pathways.

We can draft them at our draft pick, just like Sydney can. Sydney can also trade for them to come home later on since you seem to think the go home factor is so huge.

Again, are you all for us growing the game with more clubs investing in NSW/QLD to help propel the development of the game?? Or are you only interested in developing the game if it benefits your club??

 

[.Shotties.]

We can draft them at our draft pick, just like Sydney can. Sydney can also trade for them to come home later on since you seem to think the go home factor is so huge.

Well, no, as I pointed out earlier, the number of Sydney academy players that have available at our pick without reaching into the next round (because football state teams don't need to do that to access their home talent.) is one. So no, Geelong's access to home city, let alone home state talent is not similar to Sydney's.

Again, are you all for us growing the game with more clubs investing in NSW/QLD to help propel the development of the game?? Or are you only interested in developing the game if it benefits your club??

Absolutely! Find a region like the Tweed or Shoalhaven and make it yours! Because that's what you're talking about, aren't you? Regions where football is third or worse choice and there are no elite talent pathways, right?

Just don't do what happened last time where players were skimmed and no lasting investment was made.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Well, no, as I pointed out earlier, the number of Sydney academy players that have available at our pick without reaching into the next round (because football state teams don't need to do that to access their home talent.) is one. So no, Geelong's access to home city, let alone home state talent is not similar to Sydney's.


Absolutely! Find a region like the Tweed or Shoalhaven and make it yours! Because that's what you're talking about, aren't you? Regions where football is third or worse choice and there are no elite talent pathways, right?

Just don't do what happened last time where players were skimmed and no lasting investment was made.

All the regions Sydney + GWS are investing in geelong and others can have access to also since essentially the entire NSW region has football a secondary sport to NRL. Let’s tackle it all together and crush NRL. But we both know you don’t care about that at the end of the day nor does Sydney or GWS.

You can draft players from anywhere. You don’t need nor should have be given anymore access to NSW kids than any other state team does, very entitled opinion. This idea you need an entire team recruited from NSW is silly. Sydney is one of the better teams at retaining and attracting players.

 

[.Shotties.]

All the regions Sydney + GWS are investing in geelong and others can have access to also since essentially the entire NSW region has football a secondary sport to NRL.

So that's a no to ACTUALLY developing areas on NSW without development pathways then?

You can draft players from anywhere. You don’t need nor should have be given anymore access to NSW kids than any other state team does, very entitled opinion. This idea you need an entire team recruited from NSW is silly. Sydney is one of the better teams at retaining and attracting players.

No one's put that idea forward, although I suppose it's easier to respond to arguments you just made up rather than what was posted.

Again, to wheel back to the original reason I responded to you: not being able to access home state talent in the main draft and having limited opportunity to trade them home would severely affect a team's outcomes.

 

[sherb]

Very simple, let the AFL run it.

Terrible idea.

If you want something to be run as well as possible, you don't let the AFL anywhere near it.

How do you think footy in Tasmania became a basket case?

 

[GC2015]

No the AFL doesn’t create academies because of preferences of where players want to live lol. again, if this is the case for academies to grow the game then let’s increase the participation and investment by allowing all clubs to have academies across northern metropolitan areas. This will exponentially increase the rate of growth…understand?

So your idea is to have all 18 clubs establish their own northern academy in which they get their own portion of suburbs from Sydney and Brisbane? That's 36 separate northern academies running at the same time...

In case you're not aware, the AFL has tried this sort of stuff in the past and had very little success. Do you remember the NSW scholarship program? Every AFL club was allowed to identify junior talent from any part of NSW and sign them to their scholarship program years before they were draft eligible and could even move them interstate to incorporate them into their AFL program if they wanted to. Spoiler alert - it hardly produced any AFL talent. Tex Walker was essentially the one notable graduate from the NSW scholarship program.

I know you think you've got it figured out and opening everything up to every club is going to be better for everyone, but the truth is we've been here before and it doesn't work that way. The AFL has already tried a lot of your suggestions and none of them even came close to what we're seeing with the northern academies now. This is why the AFL continue to defend the northern academies and don't look like removing them any time soon.

Probably time to move on, bud. Just accept that your club lost the prelim to Brisbane and focus on the 2025 season