Expansion QLD and NSW academies

[geelong_crazy26]

What has this got to do with Brisbane getting early picks because they finished near the bottom of the ladder like old mate is having a whinge about?

You just drafted two no1 picks from finishing top four and are about to potentially draft a third with anabelle.

I have no issues with F/S. Cash in on the incredible luck of the Ashcroft boys. Each club will have their equal turn eventually.

But let’s not pretend this doesn’t help brisbanes fortunes

 

[RUNVS]

You just drafted two no1 picks from finishing top four and are about to potentially draft a third with anabelle.

I have no issues with F/S. Cash in on the incredible luck of the Ashcroft boys. Each club will have their equal turn eventually.

But let’s not pretend this doesn’t help brisbanes fortunes

and lets not pretend Geelong does not get massive advantages because Geelong Falcon boys keep wanting to return home and Geelong getting them for cheap at the trade table (and them willing to accept unders to get back).

 

[jonnobackpocket]

You just drafted two no1 picks from finishing top four and are about to potentially draft a third with anabelle.

I have no issues with F/S. Cash in on the incredible luck of the Ashcroft boys. Each club will have their equal turn eventually.

But let’s not pretend this doesn’t help brisbanes fortunes

Seriously- Geelong supporters, what do you not understand here, he was having a whinge because Geelong has not access to top end picks like McCluggage, Berry and Rayner, was not even a discussion about father sons. What a surprise Geelong are OK with father sons, nothing to do with Ablett, Scarlett and Hawkins is it? Coming from a team who’s major sponsor was paying a player from another club who just happened to walk there the minute his contract is up and has a coach pulling in another wage from a sponsor as a ‘consultant’. Please. Stick to the initial discussion about Lions getting low picks by finishing in the bottom 3.

 

[powerrrrrrrrrrrr]

The system will work well now. In fact the w.a and s.a clubs might have an advantage with more aboriginals in their state per capita and only 2 clubs in each state.

Can’t speak for WA however the SA clubs absolutely are disadvantaged by our NGA allocations.

Majority of the state is unallocated so this comment doesn’t apply at all.

We also don’t get access to Metropolitan areas (which we are trying to get changed for WA and SA clubs).

For example, we have a young lad in the u16s who’s the son of one of our former players and touted as a potential number 1 pick or top 5. He’s not eligible with the current zoning due to restricting access to metropolitan areas. If he was in a Vic, he’d be aligned to a club instantly.

Same reason Rankine wasn’t a crows NGA.

There’s a reason the SA clubs have had stuff all NGA picks. Our zones are crap and we’re hugely disadvantaged.

 

[GC2015]

You just drafted two no1 picks from finishing top four and are about to potentially draft a third with anabelle.

I have no issues with F/S. Cash in on the incredible luck of the Ashcroft boys. Each club will have their equal turn eventually.

But let’s not pretend this doesn’t help brisbanes fortunes

The two number 1 picks, who were actually bid on with picks 2 & 5, were both F/S selections. It's no different to your club having priorty access to number 1 pick Tom Hawkins, except you only had to give up pick 41 to get him (which allowed you to draft Joel Selwood with pick 7) whereas the Lions had to give up considerably more draft capital to secure the Ashcroft boys and it'll be even harder to do so from this year onwards. You really don't want to go down the road of arguing over the F/S rule considering your club has been blessed with priority access to the Abletts, Scarletts and Hawkins of the footy world.

I haven't seen any mock drafts that suggest Annable could be a contender for pick 1 this year. Top 5 perhaps, but not pick 1. South Australian Dyson Sharp appears to be the hot favourite for pick 1 this year so don't be surprised to see him in yellow and black at the end of this year. With the recent rule changes, Brisbane will have to pay their fair share in points to secure Annable at the end of this year, but it's important to remember he would be Brisbane's FIRST top 10 academy pick if things do eventuate that way. Brisbane's academy has hardly produced any highly rated draftees to date in its 10+ year existence. Pick 14 Eric Hipwood is probably the only one that's worth noting so far.

and lets not pretend Geelong does not get massive advantages because Geelong Falcon boys keep wanting to return home and Geelong getting them for cheap at the trade table (and them willing to accept unders to get back).

This. It's absolutely undersold how big of a geographical advantage Geelong has. Patrick Dangerfield and Jeremy Cameron are recent examples of superstar players that have stated publicly that they chose to join Geelong because they wanted to be closer to their families. Then you also have the natural link to the Falcons U18s program that has proven time and time again to be a recruiting advantage for the Cats. It'd be akin to the AFL starting a team in the Riverina and highly talented players from that area constantly requesting trade to join them to be 'closer to family'. Don't forget, most of the Riverina region was removed from GWS's zone because it was seen as too big of an advantage.

Hypothetically, how would Geelong fans feel if the AFL made the decision to disband the Falcons program because it was seen as too big of a recruiting advantage for the Cats? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't like that.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

The two number 1 picks, who were actually bid on with picks 2 & 5, were both F/S selections. It's no different to your club having priorty access to number 1 pick Tom Hawkins, except you only had to give up pick 41 to get him (which allowed you to draft Joel Selwood with pick 7) whereas the Lions had to give up considerably more draft capital to secure the Ashcroft boys and it'll be even harder to do so from this year onwards. You really don't want to go down the road of arguing over the F/S rule considering your club has been blessed with priority access to the Abletts, Scarletts and Hawkins of the footy world.

I haven't seen any mock drafts that suggest Annable could be a contender for pick 1 this year. Top 5 perhaps, but not pick 1. South Australian Dyson Sharp appears to be the hot favourite for pick 1 this year so don't be surprised to see him in yellow and black at the end of this year. With the recent rule changes, Brisbane will have to pay their fair share in points to secure Annable at the end of this year, but it's important to remember he would be Brisbane's FIRST top 10 academy pick if things do eventuate that way. Brisbane's academy has hardly produced any highly rated draftees to date in its 10+ year existence. Pick 14 Eric Hipwood is probably the only one that's worth noting so far.


This. It's absolutely undersold how big of a geographical advantage Geelong has. Patrick Dangerfield and Jeremy Cameron are recent examples of superstar players that have stated publicly that they chose to join Geelong because they wanted to be closer to their families. Then you also have the natural link to the Falcons U18s program that has proven time and time again to be a recruiting advantage for the Cats. It'd be akin to the AFL starting a team in the Riverina and highly talented players from that area constantly requesting trade to join them to be 'closer to family'. Don't forget, most of the Riverina region was removed from GWS's zone because it was seen as too big of an advantage.

Hypothetically, how would you feel if the AFL made the decision to disband the Falcons program because it was seen as too big of a recruiting advantage for the Cats? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like that.

Great response, however Geelong have not had any ‘access’ to top 10 picks, so obviously Brisbane got an unfair advantage by being shit for 15 years…. Hipwood, no one rates him until its time to whinge about the academy.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Seriously- Geelong supporters, what do you not understand here, he was having a whinge because Geelong has not access to top end picks like McCluggage, Berry and Rayner, was not even a discussion about father sons. What a surprise Geelong are OK with father sons, nothing to do with Ablett, Scarlett and Hawkins is it? Coming from a team who’s major sponsor was paying a player from another club who just happened to walk there the minute his contract is up and has a coach pulling in another wage from a sponsor as a ‘consultant’. Please. Stick to the initial discussion about Lions getting low picks by finishing in the bottom 3.

Geelong has only ever had 1 f/s pick rates inside the first round of the draft who was Hawkins. The rest were 2-3rd round rated including g ablett.

I am all for F/S because it is equitable randomized and available to all. Academies are designed to only benefit a small handful of clubs. Big difference

 

[geelong_crazy26]

The two number 1 picks, who were actually bid on with picks 2 & 5, were both F/S selections. It's no different to your club having priorty access to number 1 pick Tom Hawkins, except you only had to give up pick 41 to get him (which allowed you to draft Joel Selwood with pick 7) whereas the Lions had to give up considerably more draft capital to secure the Ashcroft boys and it'll be even harder to do so from this year onwards. You really don't want to go down the road of arguing over the F/S rule considering your club has been blessed with priority access to the Abletts, Scarletts and Hawkins of the footy world.

I haven't seen any mock drafts that suggest Annable could be a contender for pick 1 this year. Top 5 perhaps, but not pick 1. South Australian Dyson Sharp appears to be the hot favourite for pick 1 this year so don't be surprised to see him in yellow and black at the end of this year. With the recent rule changes, Brisbane will have to pay their fair share in points to secure Annable at the end of this year, but it's important to remember he would be Brisbane's FIRST top 10 academy pick if things do eventuate that way. Brisbane's academy has hardly produced any highly rated draftees to date in its 10+ year existence. Pick 14 Eric Hipwood is probably the only one that's worth noting so far.


This. It's absolutely undersold how big of a geographical advantage Geelong has. Patrick Dangerfield and Jeremy Cameron are recent examples of superstar players that have stated publicly that they chose to join Geelong because they wanted to be closer to their families. Then you also have the natural link to the Falcons U18s program that has proven time and time again to be a recruiting advantage for the Cats. It'd be akin to the AFL starting a team in the Riverina and highly talented players from that area constantly requesting trade to join them to be 'closer to family'. Don't forget, most of the Riverina region was removed from GWS's zone because it was seen as too big of an advantage.

Hypothetically, how would Geelong fans feel if the AFL made the decision to disband the Falcons program because it was seen as too big of a recruiting advantage for the Cats? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't like that.

I think you are missing the point.

Geographical advantages father sons whatever thing you want to pick out, is swings and roundabouts and everyone has access to them. Academies are only given and gifted to expansion clubs on the massive scale they have them. The rest of the league is given some junk rural area with hardly anything to it.

30 years ago you could barely convince a tumble weed to move to geelong, now it’s a destination due to melb prices and congestion. Times change naturally. Who knows in another 20 years, same with Brisbane now considered a destination geographically due to the melb livability crisis. It’s cheaper and offers a good lifestyle just like geelong.

simply get rid of the academies or give it back to the AFL to run, or another alternative is let each and every AFL club run one in these states. That will mean increased $$ investment and more rapid growth. Why only limit it to a small handful?

It’s not about benefiting a select few clubs which is obviously all you care about, it should be about growing the game. Not just “growing the game” as some excuse to have exclusive access to top talent

 

[geelong_crazy26]

Great response, however Geelong have not had any ‘access’ to top 10 picks, so obviously Brisbane got an unfair advantage by being shit for 15 years…. Hipwood, no one rates him until its time to whinge about the academy.

Hipwood would get a first rounder on the open market. He is quality. Probs a top ten pick.

We haven’t had any top ten pick f/s picks outside of Hawkins. Not sure what any of this has to do with academies. I said enjoy the F/S luck, I am all for it.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

and lets not pretend Geelong does not get massive advantages because Geelong Falcon boys keep wanting to return home and Geelong getting them for cheap at the trade table (and them willing to accept unders to get back).

So what you are suggesting is we have an AFL investigation into the geographic desirability of footy club locations and alter the draft or trade periods accordingly??

Currently Brisbane is a destination club with trades due to the lifestyle appeal over congested overpriced melb. Should they have their academies stripped due to this huge advantage?? Should we put in place some sand bags on the back?

 

[RUNVS]

So what you are suggesting is we have an AFL investigation into the geographic desirability of footy club locations and alter the draft or trade periods accordingly??

Currently Brisbane is a destination club with trades due to the lifestyle appeal over congested overpriced melb. Should they have their academies stripped due to this huge advantage?? Should we put in place some sand bags on the back?

So an ingrained advantage in the AFL is just accepted, while a program designed to help clubs that don't have that advantage is seen as communism or something equally dumb.

 

[Kobe Gryant]

Australian Football is massive in QLD and it'll overtake rugby league once the new stadium is built at Victoria Park, leaving NSW as the only state in Australia where Australian Football isn't the number one code.

No it won't. You're showing a complete lack of understanding of what QLD and NSW are actually like in this thread, and how they treat their sport.

Having lived in all three states, the sporting demographics aren't like Victoria. There's socio-economic elements that just don't exist in the rest of the country, where as in Victoria, footy is every man's game.

If you're lucky enough to be born wealthy in NSW/QLD and grow up through the private school system, you'll almost certainly play Rugby Union.

If you're like most of the population outside of that, it's Rugby League, and it's not particularly close either.

There can be some exceptions of course, but by and large, that's how it is. They're stereo-types and traditions that have been instilled for generations, our game doesn't just change that within 10 years.

Australian football largely isn't even on the radar. As an example, it has a small niche in the North Shore of Sydney (Mosman, Willoughby) and a similar contingent in the eastern suburbs and inner west (Paddington, Newtown).

Anything else is almost entirely Union or League territory, and it just gets even more drastic the further out west you go. Anything past Ryde is a write off from an AFL POV.

As a result, the junior competions are played at a horrifically low standard. The best way you could describe it, is U-17s in NSW play at a similar level to U-14s in Victoria.

There's just too many kids who don't really know what they're doing, and have come from a League/Union background, and that shows in the academy numbers.

The Swans Academy have produced three genuine stars (with no previous AFL background) in 15 years. Gulden, Mills, & Heeney, while the Lions sit at two with Andrews & Allir.

That's less than some Victorian CTL clubs/schools would produce within 3 years.

As an example, Carey Grammar/Oakleigh by themselves produced Rowell, Daicos, Anderson, & Dempsey within a three year span. The talent pipelines just aren't the same.

The system might need tweaking, I think we can all accept that conversation being opened, and the same goes for F/S.

Acting like the Northern clubs are just sitting on this goldmine of talent is disingenuous though, particularly when it's yet to actually amount to any dominance.

We might get there in 20-30 years, but we're not there yet.

 

[.Shotties.]

Acting like the Northern clubs are just sitting on this goldmine of talent is disingenuous though, particularly when it's yet to actually amount to any dominance.

This is something I bring up repeatedly. No one would actually want zones like our Shoalhaven, Hunter or Tweed zones. The clubs have shown that they don't want to go in where football is hardly a blip on the sporting radar and build up the development pathways from nothing.

 

[Kobe Gryant]

and lets not pretend Geelong does not get massive advantages because Geelong Falcon boys keep wanting to return home and Geelong getting them for cheap at the trade table (and them willing to accept unders to get back).

The two number 1 picks, who were actually bid on with picks 2 & 5, were both F/S selections. It's no different to your club having priorty access to number 1 pick Tom Hawkins, except you only had to give up pick 41 to get him (which allowed you to draft Joel Selwood with pick 7) whereas the Lions had to give up considerably more draft capital to secure the Ashcroft boys and it'll be even harder to do so from this year onwards. You really don't want to go down the road of arguing over the F/S rule considering your club has been blessed with priority access to the Abletts, Scarletts and Hawkins of the footy world.

I haven't seen any mock drafts that suggest Annable could be a contender for pick 1 this year. Top 5 perhaps, but not pick 1. South Australian Dyson Sharp appears to be the hot favourite for pick 1 this year so don't be surprised to see him in yellow and black at the end of this year. With the recent rule changes, Brisbane will have to pay their fair share in points to secure Annable at the end of this year, but it's important to remember he would be Brisbane's FIRST top 10 academy pick if things do eventuate that way. Brisbane's academy has hardly produced any highly rated draftees to date in its 10+ year existence. Pick 14 Eric Hipwood is probably the only one that's worth noting so far.


This. It's absolutely undersold how big of a geographical advantage Geelong has. Patrick Dangerfield and Jeremy Cameron are recent examples of superstar players that have stated publicly that they chose to join Geelong because they wanted to be closer to their families. Then you also have the natural link to the Falcons U18s program that has proven time and time again to be a recruiting advantage for the Cats. It'd be akin to the AFL starting a team in the Riverina and highly talented players from that area constantly requesting trade to join them to be 'closer to family'. Don't forget, most of the Riverina region was removed from GWS's zone because it was seen as too big of an advantage.

Hypothetically, how would Geelong fans feel if the AFL made the decision to disband the Falcons program because it was seen as too big of a recruiting advantage for the Cats? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't like that.

Don't stoop to this just because the other guys are carrying on. The Geelong 'advantage' is just as farcical as the supposed academy advantage. Neither is accurate.

Just 20 years ago, Geelong were nowhere. You couldn't pay a player to come down the highway. There was no advantage, no desirability, and seemingly no way out. We got turned down by Jade Rawlings in place of Footscray lmao.

The current influx in talent, both local and otherwise, is solely due to Geelong being a well run, consistently contending side.

Players take less, because they know they're going to be playing in finals, contending for premierships, playing in primetime games, and spending less time actually at the club, with Geelong particularly flexible on training hours.

Not only does that soften the blow of a lighter wallet, it also creates opportunities post career that simply won't exist at other clubs who don't achieve that.

If you were to take that away, and Geelong were a bottom four side with poor coaching and administration, I guarantee you that all disappears.

It's the same with Brisbane. People are losing their minds now about some so called 'advantage' when the club was on life support merely a decade ago.

They put the right people in charge, and that lead to results, which lead to desirability for the club, which in turn attracts talent.

I mean really, for all the carry on, how many genuine stars have either club picked up? Neale, Dunkley, Daniher, Cameron x2, Dangerfield, Smith? (highly arguable if he even deserves that title)

The rest were role players who eventually came good (or failed) or they were great players past their peak (Hodge, Birchall, Ablett, I. Smith).

 

[jonnobackpocket]

Since the academies came in Brisbane and Sydney have won 1 flag each. Mind you Sydney’s team did not have 1 academy player in the team. Brisbane had Hipwood and Andrew’s- pick 60 something. Brisbane won it due to excellent recruiting, getting their shit together off field and doing their time at the bottom the ladder. If those teams had won half of the flags since 2010 I could see the need for incessant whinging. Just happens old mate who sparked this discussion bought up Geelong not having ‘access’ to top ten picks has now disappeared because he could not have been more wrong.

 

[Purple Suit]

Can’t speak for WA however the SA clubs absolutely are disadvantaged by our NGA allocations.

Majority of the state is unallocated so this comment doesn’t apply at all.

We also don’t get access to Metropolitan areas (which we are trying to get changed for WA and SA clubs).

For example, we have a young lad in the u16s who’s the son of one of our former players and touted as a potential number 1 pick or top 5. He’s not eligible with the current zoning due to restricting access to metropolitan areas. If he was in a Vic, he’d be aligned to a club instantly.

Same reason Rankine wasn’t a crows NGA.

There’s a reason the SA clubs have had stuff all NGA picks. Our zones are crap and we’re hugely disadvantaged.

WA is fully allocated between WC & Freo, including metro areas. SA appears to be the only place not allocated fully but on the map it only looks like very low populated regional areas, Adelaide looks divvied up. They really should fix that up though.

 

[powerrrrrrrrrrrr]

WA is fully allocated between WC & Freo, including metro areas. SA appears to be the only place not allocated fully but on the map it only looks like very low populated regional areas, Adelaide looks divvied up. They really should fix that up though.

The map makes it appear that Metropolitan areas are covered however it’s been well reported that our zones don’t encompass the Metropolitan parts of Adelaide.

“In a further twist to (name) appeal, he would need the AFL to go through and make a change to the zoning around encompassing the metropolitan areas of Adelaide for the Next Generation academy.“

“For the boys, including the highly talented, 194-centimetre (name) to be tied to Port in the draft on a bidding system the AFL would need to change the zones for NGA players in South Australia to encompass metropolitan areas. The zones are under review.”

I’ve removed their name from the references and not inserting the links to the articles as I don’t think we need to be sharing his name as a kid but we get the point. SA zones are crap.

 

[GC2015]

I think you are missing the point.

Geographical advantages father sons whatever thing you want to pick out, is swings and roundabouts and everyone has access to them. Academies are only given and gifted to expansion clubs on the massive scale they have them. The rest of the league is given some junk rural area with hardly anything to it.

I think you're ignoring the point. It's not really swings and roundabouts when it comes to the Geelong Falcons footy factory. They've produced 20 AFL draftees in the last 5 seasons alone and every one of them that was taken in the first round now plays for the Cats. Is that a coincidence? Do you think both recent first round Falcons draftees Tanner Bruhn and Oliver Henry would have requested trades to the Cats if they hadn't grown up in the area? I highly doubt it. They've both said publicly that they made the move to be closer to their support networks. Getting a supply of locally produced first round picks from other clubs requesting trades to your team when you're the only club in town is a pretty big geographical advantage, despite your reluctance to acknowledge it.

This isn't an isolated thing either - there's been plenty of other high quality players from the Falcons who were drafted to other clubs and end up requesting a trade to the Cats like pick 10 Patrick Dangerfield, pick 6 Gary Rohan, pick 8 Lachie Henderson, pick 11 Shaun Higgins, Luke Dahlhaus, Jack Steven etc. This has been going on for a while and Geelong have been the major beneficiaries of this geographical advantage.

30 years ago you could barely convince a tumble weed to move to geelong, now it’s a destination due to melb prices and congestion. Times change naturally. Who knows in another 20 years, same with Brisbane now considered a destination geographically due to the melb livability crisis. It’s cheaper and offers a good lifestyle just like geelong.

You've picked the wrong time frame to go back to. 30 years ago, the Cats had just come off a GF appearance in 1994 and had players like Gary Ablett Sr (you know, the guy that a lot of people consider to be the best player of all time) and he was convinced to join Geelong because he didn't like the city lifestyle in Melbourne after playing for Hawthorn, which just furthers the point about the geographical advantage the Cats have.

Go back to the late 80s/early 90s and have a look at how difficult it was for Brisbane to convince players to move to Queensland, particularly while they were based on the Gold Coast. They would draft players who would straight up refuse to get on the plane and only convinced some guys like Nathan Buckley to come under the proviso that he would be traded to the club of his choice after one year (draft tampering anyone?). That's what a real recruiting struggle looks like.

Don't stoop to this just because the other guys are carrying on. The Geelong 'advantage' is just as farcical as the supposed academy advantage. Neither is accurate.

Just 20 years ago, Geelong were nowhere. You couldn't pay a player to come down the highway. There was no advantage, no desirability, and seemingly no way out. We got turned down by Jade Rawlings in place of Footscray lmao.

So now it's 20 years ago as opposed to the last Geelong fan claiming 30 years ago? Okay if we go back 20 years to the beginning of 2005, Geelong had just come off a 9-point prelim final loss to Brisbane and convinced number 2 pick Brad Ottens to join them from Richmond at the end of 2004. He went on to become a triple premiership ruckman for the Cats. Sounds like a pretty good pick up to me! As is the case with every recruitment, I'm sure there's a story behind why they were able to get Ottens, but it doesn't change the fact that Geelong were able to recruit a high quality player at the time. There seems to be a fair amount of rewriting of history going on with Geelong fans...

The current influx in talent, both local and otherwise, is solely due to Geelong being a well run, consistently contending side.

Players take less, because they know they're going to be playing in finals, contending for premierships, playing in primetime games, and spending less time actually at the club, with Geelong particularly flexible on training hours.

Not only does that soften the blow of a lighter wallet, it also creates opportunities post career that simply won't exist at other clubs who don't achieve that.

If you were to take that away, and Geelong were a bottom four side with poor coaching and administration, I guarantee you that all disappears.

It's the same with Brisbane. People are losing their minds now about some so called 'advantage' when the club was on life support merely a decade ago.

They put the right people in charge, and that lead to results, which lead to desirability for the club, which in turn attracts talent.

I think it's all three occurring at the same time. I think Geelong is a desirable place to live + they are a well run organisation + they are a proven finals competitor and those appear to be the three factors players value the most (other than money) when it comes to choosing where they want to play their footy. It's been that way at Geelong for at least 15 years now and it's allowed them to go on an unbelievable run of finals participation in 16 of the last 18 seasons.

However, the linkage with the Falcons programs will continue to be there regardless of those factors listed above and it's something Geelong can always fall back on.

Since the academies came in Brisbane and Sydney have won 1 flag each. Mind you Sydney’s team did not have 1 academy player in the team. Brisbane had Hipwood and Andrew’s- pick 60 something. Brisbane won it due to excellent recruiting, getting their shit together off field and doing their time at the bottom the ladder. If those teams had won half of the flags since 2010 I could see the need for incessant whinging. Just happens old mate who sparked this discussion bought up Geelong not having ‘access’ to top ten picks has now disappeared because he could not have been more wrong.

In the interest of factual reporting, I think it's necessary to point out that priority access to northern academy players began in 2013 and the Sydney's last flag came in 2012. So that means Brisbane's flag last year is the only premiership won by a northern club in the northerna academy era (2013-). Just one flag in 12 years and Brisbane's 2024 premiership team barely included any academy players (3/23). It would be disingenuous to suggest the northern academies were the major driving force behind Brisbane's premiership last year. In actuality, it was won through top class recruiting in trades, free agency, non-academy drafting and bringing in the right coaches/admin off the field. There's so much that goes into it and the northern academy access was only a small portion of it.

 

[Kobe Gryant]

I think it's all three occurring at the same time. I think Geelong is a desirable place to live + they are a well run organisation + they are a proven finals competitor and those appear to be the three factors players value the most (other than money) when it comes to choosing where they want to play their footy. It's been that way at Geelong for at least 15 years now and it's allowed them to go on an unbelievable run of finals participation in 16 of the last 18 seasons.

However, the linkage with the Falcons programs will continue to be there regardless of those factors listed above and it's something Geelong can always fall back on.

Tell me you're not from Victoria without telling me you're not from Victoria lmao.

Geelong was never seen as a "desirable place to live". It was seen as a backwater country town, and some people still hold that belief to this day.

It's only AFTER the football club became successful that suddenly Geelong had any attraction, and this so called 'advantage' that the surf coast provides has been brought up. You're proving my point.

As for the Falcons, how many has this production line that you seem to think it is actually provided the club? Shaun Higgins and Jack Steven as geriatrics who did nothing?

I'll give you Dangerfield, but that's one player. We got lucky there.

I'll even give you Bruhn and Henry as young players...but in that case, how is that any different to Treloar, Horne-Francis, Caldwell, Rankine, Hoskin-Elliot, Ahern, Shiel, Boyd, Prestia, Hately, Marchbank, Jackson, Kennedy, Setterfield, & Saad returning to their home states as young players?

That's not a Geelong issue. It's a league wide issue, particularly for the expansion clubs.

Until that's fixed, all you can do is make yourself an attractive proposition and pray that the player in question is from your state.

Geelong haven't benefited from that any more or less than any other club.

So now it's 20 years ago as opposed to the last Geelong fan claiming 30 years ago? Okay if we go back 20 years to the beginning of 2005, Geelong had just come off a 9-point prelim final loss to Brisbane and convinced number 2 pick Brad Ottens to join them from Richmond at the end of 2004. He went on to become a triple premiership ruckman for the Cats. Sounds like a pretty good pick up to me! As is the case with every recruitment, I'm sure there's a story behind why they were able to get Ottens, but it doesn't change the fact that Geelong were able to recruit a high quality player at the time. There seems to be a fair amount of rewriting of history going on with Geelong fans...

Please don't act like all supporters of the same club are just some monolith hivemind.

I don't care what they said, it's you and I who are having the conversation. Let's stick to that.

As for what you've written, wow, you've found the example where Geelong picked up a better-than-average footballer off the back of showing some promise in the finals. Somebody think of the children!! When's that ever happened?

FWIW, I don't believe you and I are arguing the same thing.

You seem to think I'm comparing Geelong to the struggles that the Suns or Giants face. I'm not.

My club certainly has it easier than yours at the moment being an established football club with proven success, in an Australian Football heartland. That won't change for a long time, and it may never change.

All I'm saying is that by and large, Geelong's 'advantage' compared to their Victorian contemporaries is vastly overstated.

The club attracts players when they're successful and therefore seen as attractive. Some of them ordinary (Steven, Higgins) some of them okay (Bruhn, Henry, Touhy) and every 5 years or so we might get a star (Dangerfield, Cameron).

That's a pretty standard influx of talent for a team that's consistently contending. We're not advantaged compared to our contemporaries, and we're not disadvantaged either.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

So an ingrained advantage in the AFL is just accepted, while a program designed to help clubs that don't have that advantage is seen as communism or something equally dumb.

It’s not an ingrained advantage, it’s not even an advantage. Just personal preferences of lifestyle that changes per person and can swing almost yearly.

Sydney also has a lifestyle point of difference and the swans easily attract and retain talent a lot better than plenty of clubs.

Should Sydney be penalized?? Of cause not.

Each club has their own unique distinct point of difference with location, and if your club is disappointed or feels it is wrong.. guess what?? Do something about it, change locations if it’s truly a “disadvantage” where you are. Someone can freely make ballarat or bendigo home if they choose or NT/Canberra. This is all free will and any club can move to where they choose.

What is only available to a select handful of special clubs are academies.

 

[The King!]

Since the academies came in Brisbane and Sydney have won 1 flag each. Mind you Sydney’s team did not have 1 academy player in the team. Brisbane had Hipwood and Andrew’s- pick 60 something. Brisbane won it due to excellent recruiting, getting their shit together off field and doing their time at the bottom the ladder. If those teams had won half of the flags since 2010 I could see the need for incessant whinging. Just happens old mate who sparked this discussion bought up Geelong not having ‘access’ to top ten picks has now disappeared because he could not have been more wrong.

Feels like only 6-7 years ago Brisbane were being discussed on the couch about being a basket case and no end in sight , maybe a bit longer, but the point remains. They breakthrough and of course it’s suddenly academy chatter.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I think you're ignoring the point. It's not really swings and roundabouts when it comes to the Geelong Falcons footy factory. They've produced 20 AFL draftees in the last 5 seasons alone and every one of them that was taken in the first round now plays for the Cats. Is that a coincidence? Do you think both recent first round Falcons draftees Tanner Bruhn and Oliver Henry would have requested trades to the Cats if they hadn't grown up in the area? I highly doubt it. They've both said publicly that they made the move to be closer to their support networks. Getting a supply of locally produced first round picks from other clubs requesting trades to your team when you're the only club in town is a pretty big geographical advantage, despite your reluctance to acknowledge it.

This isn't an isolated thing either - there's been plenty of other high quality players from the Falcons who were drafted to other clubs and end up requesting a trade to the Cats like pick 10 Patrick Dangerfield, pick 6 Gary Rohan, pick 8 Lachie Henderson, pick 11 Shaun Higgins, Luke Dahlhaus, Jack Steven etc. This has been going on for a while and Geelong have been the major beneficiaries of this geographical advantage.


You've picked the wrong time frame to go back to. 30 years ago, the Cats had just come off a GF appearance in 1994 and had players like Gary Ablett Sr (you know, the guy that a lot of people consider to be the best player of all time) and he was convinced to join Geelong because he didn't like the city lifestyle in Melbourne after playing for Hawthorn, which just furthers the point about the geographical advantage the Cats have.

Go back to the late 80s/early 90s and have a look at how difficult it was for Brisbane to convince players to move to Queensland, particularly while they were based on the Gold Coast. They would draft players who would straight up refuse to get on the plane and only convinced some guys like Nathan Buckley to come under the proviso that he would be traded to the club of his choice after one year (draft tampering anyone?). That's what a real recruiting struggle looks like.


So now it's 20 years ago as opposed to the last Geelong fan claiming 30 years ago? Okay if we go back 20 years to the beginning of 2005, Geelong had just come off a 9-point prelim final loss to Brisbane and convinced number 2 pick Brad Ottens to join them from Richmond at the end of 2004. He went on to become a triple premiership ruckman for the Cats. Sounds like a pretty good pick up to me! As is the case with every recruitment, I'm sure there's a story behind why they were able to get Ottens, but it doesn't change the fact that Geelong were able to recruit a high quality player at the time. There seems to be a fair amount of rewriting of history going on with Geelong fans...


I think it's all three occurring at the same time. I think Geelong is a desirable place to live + they are a well run organisation + they are a proven finals competitor and those appear to be the three factors players value the most (other than money) when it comes to choosing where they want to play their footy. It's been that way at Geelong for at least 15 years now and it's allowed them to go on an unbelievable run of finals participation in 16 of the last 18 seasons.

However, the linkage with the Falcons programs will continue to be there regardless of those factors listed above and it's something Geelong can always fall back on.


In the interest of factual reporting, I think it's necessary to point out that priority access to northern academy players began in 2013 and the Sydney's last flag came in 2012. So that means Brisbane's flag last year is the only premiership won by a northern club in the northerna academy era (2013-). Just one flag in 12 years and Brisbane's 2024 premiership team barely included any academy players (3/23). It would be disingenuous to suggest the northern academies were the major driving force behind Brisbane's premiership last year. In actuality, it was won through top class recruiting in trades, free agency, non-academy drafting and bringing in the right coaches/admin off the field. There's so much that goes into it and the northern academy access was only a small portion of it.

You can point out just about any team over a 40-50 year period and say they traded or attracted a big name player over that timeframe. To claim this is proof of some disadvantage at work is incredibly stupid.

I guess you reckon Sydney should have their academy stripped becuause they attracted plugger in the 90’s?? Very dumb logic

 

[WOFTAMWarrior]

Is yet another academy thread required?? Why do people have these thought bubbles and start a thread instead of searching for one previous??

The academies are not hard to understand. Kids in NSW and Queensland aren’t born with a sherrin in their hands unlike the kids in Victoria, Tassie, SA, WA and NT.

The academies are set up to bring more talent into the AFL. So Club A has an academy and out of all the kids in there they have 1 player. So player 1 gets drafted to Club A. This means Club B (for example a Victorian Club) can draft player 2 from Victoria.

If there is no academy than player 2 gets drafted to Club A and player 1 never exists in the AFL system.

The more talent the academies produces bring more talent to the elite levels giving more clubs access to quality kids. Academies like the northern states aren’t needed in traditional Australian Football States because that is the sport and the pathways are there.

Also the academies don’t produce guns every year like is made out.

 

[GC2015]

Tell me you're not from Victoria without telling me you're not from Victoria lmao.

Geelong was never seen as a "desirable place to live". It was seen as a backwater country town, and some people still hold that belief to this day.

It's only AFTER the football club became successful that suddenly Geelong had any attraction, and this so called 'advantage' that the surf coast provides has been brought up. You're proving my point.

Depends on the individual. Some want the city life and would preference Melbourne/Brisbane and others like the idea of a smaller regional area along a coastline like the Surf Coast-Geelong/Gold Coast. Then you have really unique cases like Joe Daniher who hated the city life in Melbourne and chose to live in the regional coast town of Byron Bay and in doing so had to travel more than two hours each way to get to Brisbane. It really just comes down to the individual, but I think it's unfair to say Surf Coast-Geelong area was never been seen as a desirable area to live prior to the Cats' recent successes. It becomes MORE desirable when the local team is performing well and I think we'll see that occur with my team as well once we start playing finals.

Our clubs are similar in the sense that we're the only ones that can offer players the opportunity to live, train and play outside a capital city. However, the major difference is that your club is based in a footy heartland area where the club/players are revered by the locals, whereas the Suns are based in a traditional rugby league area. Lots of kids grow up in the Surf Coast-Geelong area dreaming of pulling on the hoops one day. This is simply not the case on the Gold Coast for most kids. Hopefully that changes over the coming decades and that's a big part of the reason the northern academies exist, but right now it's not the case.

As for the Falcons, how many has this production line that you seem to think it is actually provided the club? Shaun Higgins and Jack Steven as geriatrics who did nothing?

I'll give you Dangerfield, but that's one player. We got lucky there.

I'll even give you Bruhn and Henry as young players...but in that case, how is that any different to Treloar, Horne-Francis, Caldwell, Rankine, Hoskin-Elliot, Ahern, Shiel, Boyd, Prestia, Hately, Marchbank, Jackson, Kennedy, Setterfield, & Saad returning to their home states as young players?

The difference is the Cats are the only team based in Geelong so they get all the benefits for themselves, whereas teams in Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth end up sharing the talent e.g. the Crows get Rankine and Port get Horne-Francis. Dangerfield wanted to live and raise a family in Moggs Creek and realistically that meant he was only ever going to play for the Cats. He was of course a Falcons junior as well so it was a homecoming for Danger too. If he was from Perth then he'd have to choose between two clubs, as we saw last year with Bolton going to Freo and Baker going to West Coast.

Please don't act like all supporters of the same club are just some monolith hivemind.

I don't care what they said, it's you and I who are having the conversation. Let's stick to that.

Fair enough. It was just interesting that one Geelong fan claimed hardship from 30 years ago and then a few posts later another Geelong fan claimed hardship from 20 years ago. But I take your point.

As for what you've written, wow, you've found the example where Geelong picked up a better-than-average footballer off the back of showing some promise in the finals. Somebody think of the children!! When's that ever happened?

Better than average? Ottens was the number 2 pick who was turning 25 years old and entering his physical prime + had already been selected in the AA team just a few years before making the move to the Cats. That's greater than 'better-than-average' in my books, but maybe we have different ideas of what that means. He certainly had a better-than-average career with Geelong that included winning three flags.

The reason Ottens was brought up was because you claimed 20 years ago you couldn't pay someone enough to head down the highway and join the Cats. That's objectively untrue and Ottens is the proof of it when he joined the Cats from Richmond exactly 20 years ago.

FWIW, I don't believe you and I are arguing the same thing.

You seem to think I'm comparing Geelong to the struggles that the Suns or Giants face. I'm not.

My club certainly has it easier than yours at the moment being an established football club with proven success, in an Australian Football heartland. That won't change for a long time, and it may never change.

I'll give you credit for at least acknowledging this. Most Victorians I've encountered won't concede anything on this topic, so I appreciate that. Well done.

All I'm saying is that by and large, Geelong's 'advantage' compared to their Victorian contemporaries is vastly overstated.

The club attracts players when they're successful and therefore seen as attractive. Some of them ordinary (Steven, Higgins) some of them okay (Bruhn, Henry, Touhy) and every 5 years or so we might get a star (Dangerfield, Cameron).

That's a pretty standard influx of talent for a team that's consistently contending. We're not advantaged compared to our contemporaries, and we're not disadvantaged either.

Comparing Geelong's advantages to other Victorian clubs is a completely different discussion. There's so many factors that go into it and I'm sure people could make a strong argument either way. Being the only club in Victoria to have a true home ground advantage would be a pretty strong point to make... but that's a discussion for a different thread.

You can point out just about any team over a 40-50 year period and say they traded or attracted a big name player over that timeframe. To claim this is proof of some disadvantage at work is incredibly stupid.

I guess you reckon Sydney should have their academy stripped becuause they attracted plugger in the 90’s?? Very dumb logic

You've missed the point again. Ablett Sr was brought up because you claimed Geelong couldn't attract anyone 30 years ago, when in actuality they attracted the biggest name of all during that era. You can't retrospectively claim hardship when there's evidence to the contrary. 30 years ago your club was playing in GFs and had the best player in the AFL (possibly the best of all time) running around in the hoops.

 

[Kobe Gryant]

Better than average? Ottens was the number 2 pick who was turning 25 years old and entering his physical prime + had already been selected in the AA team just a few years before making the move to the Cats. That's greater than 'better-than-average' in my books, but maybe we have different ideas of what that means. He certainly had a better-than-average career with Geelong that included winning three flags.

The reason Ottens was brought up was because you claimed 20 years ago you couldn't pay someone enough to head down the highway and join the Cats. That's objectively untrue and Ottens is the proof of it when he joined the Cats from Richmond exactly 20 years ago.

It was a slightly tongue in cheek in response to the deliberately disingenuous narrative you were trying to push earlier.

Listing the high draft picks attached to Gary Rohan, Lachie Henderson, and Shaun Higgins from when they were teenagers as if that had any actual relevance to the topic whatsoever.

All three of Rohan, Higgins and Henderson were almost entirely mocked as acquisitions when they arrived at Geelong, and the last thing anyone was considering is where they were drafted 10-15 years before arriving there.

One for being a geriatric, and the other two considered average at best - or in Rohan's case - a running AFL punchline.

I don't know if you just have a completely warped memory of the years of jokes that followed those recruits, but presenting it as if Geelong picked up three champion high draft picks was just ridiculous.

It would be like me calling Michael Barlow a high profile recruit for the Suns, because he was once a great footballer, and then deliberately leaving out the fact that it was 2017 and he was well past his peak, and no other clubs wanted him.

I'll get back to you when we pick up Chayce Jones or Denver Grainger-Barrass this year. They're former top 10 picks, they have to be awesome recruits, right?

As for Ottens, he broke the drought of recruitment, and like I said, it was off the back of Geelong finally looking like they knew what they were doing as a football club.

The difference is the Cats are the only team based in Geelong so they get all the benefits for themselves, whereas teams in Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth end up sharing the talent e.g. the Crows get Rankine and Port get Horne-Francis. Dangerfield wanted to live and raise a family in Moggs Creek and realistically that meant he was only ever going to play for the Cats. He was of course a Falcons junior as well so it was a homecoming for Danger too. If he was from Perth then he'd have to choose between two clubs, as we saw last year with Bolton going to Freo and Baker going to West Coast.

I was hoping you'd say that.

Sure, we generally do get the pick of the bunch so to speak on Falcons who are looking to come home. There's no doubt about that.

Generally, what we don't get access to though is Victorians looking to come home who are from the Melbourne CBD/Vic Metro area.

Same thing with draftees who'd prefer to stay in Melbourne than be drafted to Geelong, and that shows in the clubs recruiting.

It goes both ways, and I'm not complaining about it either. We're not unfairly disadvantaged at all. These are just some of the inadequacies that come with playing in a sporting competition.

It's just equally moronic to pretend it's an advantage too, though.

As you said yourself

Depends on the individual. Some want the city life and would preference Melbourne/Brisbane and others like the idea of a smaller regional area along a coastline like the Surf Coast-Geelong/Gold Coast