Expansion QLD and NSW academies

[jonnobackpocket]

The 2004 prelim? You mean the Brisbane "home" prelim that was played at the MCG?

Brilliant

 

[jonnobackpocket]

It’s weird, didn’t seem to worry anyone when we were shit for 20 years- what’s happened.?

 

[WillHayward]

Haven't Geelong played finals for 20 years in a row?

The Swans are going to be so shit pretty soon they will need more confessions.

The list is actually very poor.

 

[GC2015]

Mate stop digging the hole deeper..

You are getting desperate.

You've ducked almost everything I've brought up, ignored the points that you got wrong and won't even answer whether you've ever lived in Queensland or NSW, which leads me to believe you haven't and that would explain your narrow view on the nothern academies. In return, I'll just correct you on the most recent NGA points that you objectively got wrong so we can move on and hopefully you educate yourself on these topics before commenting in the future.

Cameron was how long ago, 2018? The AFL changed the rules. They chaged the rules due to the massive unfair rort with northern academies. But only for Cat B players not all. Fact.

This is about priority access. Unfair access other struggling clubs don't get.

Jarrod Cameron was NGA drafted to West Coast in 2018 when Brisbane bid on him. That disproves your claim that your club never received NGA priority access until last year.

They didn't change the NGA rules because of the northern academies. They changed the NGA rules when the Bulldogs, who had just competed in the finals, were given priority access to pick 1 Jamarra Ugle-Hagan. The rule change saw no first round NGA bid matching in 2021 and no first + second round NGA bid matching between 2022-23. Clubs were still given priority access to players outside the barred rounds and this was proven in 2021 when St Kilda matched Sydney's second round bid for Mitch Owens in the 2021 national draft.

The AFL then changed the NGA rules again in 2024 and opened it up for bids in all rounds, just like it was prior to 2021. This was proven when Essendon matched Richmond's first round bid for NGA graduate Isaac Kako.

Despite what you may think you know, the NGA access never actually stopped, it was just restricted from the first and second rounds for three seasons between 2021-23. Your club has had NGA access since it was introduced in 2017 and this was proven when they drafted Tarir Bayok that year as well as Jarrod Cameron the following year. West Coast have drafted 6 NGA graduates in the 8 years that it has existed, with the most recent being Malakai Champion three months ago.

For the record, Fremantle have also had success with the NGA priority access allowing them to draft players like top 10 pick Liam Henry, Brandon Walker and Josh Draper.

 

[Taper]

Strawman argument. Every club's fans drop off in down years.

Brisbane fans are the biggest frontrunners in the AFL and the stats back that up.
Queenslanders don't tend to stick around when their teams aren't doing too well, it's not just the Lions it's teams in other codes as well.

West Coast have been a complete basketcase for three years and they've still pulled decent crowds, they haven't found themselves in financial trouble either.
Why can't Brisbane stand on their own two feet like West Coast?

No other club has access to the draft?

Is spud fagan still in the room with you?

Brisbane and Gold Coast get to cherry pick the best talent in QLD.
QLD is on track to overtake WA within the next decade in terms of TV ratings and producing talent for Australian Football.
Brisbane also got spoon fed high draft picks such as Schache, McCluggage, Rayner etc while my club have only had two top 10 picks since 2007.
Why do Brisbane need priority access to the best talent in order to field a competitive side?

 

[sup3rfish]

Brisbane also got spoon fed high draft picks such as Schache, McCluggage, Rayner etc while my club have only had two top 10 picks since 2007.

i would give up all our top 20 picks from 2007 - now to have played finals (and won them) in every year in that time. Think most people would

 

[Elixuh]

Brisbane fans are the biggest frontrunners in the AFL and the stats back that up.
Queenslanders don't tend to stick around when their teams aren't doing too well, it's not just the Lions it's teams in other codes as well.

West Coast have been a complete basketcase for three years and they've still pulled decent crowds, they haven't found themselves in financial trouble either.
Why can't Brisbane stand on their own two feet like West Coast?

Brisbane and Gold Coast get to cherry pick the best talent in QLD.
QLD is on track to overtake WA within the next decade in terms of TV ratings and producing talent for Australian Football.
Brisbane also got spoon fed high draft picks such as Schache, McCluggage, Rayner etc while my club have only had two top 10 picks since 2007.
Why do Brisbane need priority access to the best talent in order to field a competitive side?

 

[The Educator]

Brisbane and Gold Coast get to cherry pick the best talent in QLD.

Ultimately, discounts aside and NGA and other father son aside, matched picks just mean Brisbane and Gold Coast don't pick some other player from outside Qld.

QLD is on track to overtake WA within the next decade in terms of TV ratings and producing talent for Australian Football.

No they are not. They are a long long long way from matching WA for talent.

Brisbane also got spoon fed high draft picks such as Schache, McCluggage, Rayner etc while my club have only had two top 10 picks since 2007.

That got high picks when they were finishing near the bottom????

 

[GC2015]

Brisbane also got spoon fed high draft picks such as Schache, McCluggage, Rayner etc while my club have only had two top 10 picks since 2007.

Spoon fed?

• In 2015, Brisbane finished 17th and received the #2 pick in the 2015 draft as you would expect. They used that pick to draft Schache (#2).
• In 2016, Brisbane finished 17th and received the #2 pick in the 2016 draft as you would expect. They used it to trade with GWS and received picks #3 and #17. They then used those picks to draft McCluggage (#3) and Berry (#17).
• In 2017, Brisbane finished 18th and received the #1 pick in the 2017 draft as you would expect. They used that pick to draft Rayner (#1).

That's not spoon feeding. This is literally how the draft works for every club - you finish lower on the ladder and you receive a better draft pick. If your club finished 18th this year then they would receive pick #1.

Do you know why your club has only had two top 10 picks since 2007? Because they've only missed the finals twice between 2007-2024. Again, this is literally how the draft works - if you play finals then you don't receive a top 10 pick.

However, we do know Geelong actually were spoon fed pick #1 Tom Hawkins when they were only required to give up pick #41 to draft him. That allowed the Cats to keep their pick #7 which became Joel Selwood. That's a convenient oversight from you.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

Spoon fed?

• In 2015, Brisbane finished 17th and received the #2 pick in the 2015 draft as you would expect. They used that pick to draft Schache (#2).
• In 2016, Brisbane finished 17th and received the #2 pick in the 2016 draft as you would expect. They used it to trade with GWS and received picks #3 and #17. They then used those picks to draft McCluggage (#3) and Berry (#17).
• In 2017, Brisbane finished 18th and received the #1 pick in the 2017 draft as you would expect. They used that pick to draft Rayner (#1).

That's not spoon feeding. This is literally how the draft works for every club - you finish lower on the ladder and you receive a better draft pick. If your club finished 18th this year then they would receive pick #1.

Do you know why your club has only had two top 10 picks since 2007? Because they've only missed the finals twice between 2007-2024. Again, this is literally how the draft works - if you play finals then you don't receive a top 10 pick.

However, we do know Geelong actually were spoon fed pick #1 Tom Hawkins when they were only required to give up pick #41 to draft him. That allowed the Cats to keep their pick #7 which became Joel Selwood. That's a convenient oversight from you.

Whaaaatttttttt? Getting top picks by finishing near the bottom of the ladder- that is absolute madness. Who come up with this? Has this ever happened before? I feel sorry for those teams that didn’t get the same opportunity, it has to be rigged.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

Brisbane fans are the biggest frontrunners in the AFL and the stats back that up.
Queenslanders don't tend to stick around when their teams aren't doing too well, it's not just the Lions it's teams in other codes as well.

West Coast have been a complete basketcase for three years and they've still pulled decent crowds, they haven't found themselves in financial trouble either.
Why can't Brisbane stand on their own two feet like West Coast?

Brisbane and Gold Coast get to cherry pick the best talent in QLD.
QLD is on track to overtake WA within the next decade in terms of TV ratings and producing talent for Australian Football.
Brisbane also got spoon fed high draft picks such as Schache, McCluggage, Rayner etc while my club have only had two top 10 picks since 2007.
Why do Brisbane need priority access to the best talent in order to field a competitive side?

Oh so you mean they used the same draft system as every other team- bloody cheats. Are you serious, you can’t be that dense can you?

 

[geelong_crazy26]

It's true. Both Heeney and Mills have stated publicly that there's no way they would have resisted the urge to pursue one of the rugby codes had it not been for the Swans academy. There's also been several 'almost' situations that would have fed ridiculously talented athletes into the AFL like Tom Trbojevic (Sydney), Kalyn Ponga (Brisbane), Hamiso Tabuai-Fidow (Gold Coast) - three of the best players in the NRL for those who are uninitiated - as well as the NBA's Josh Green (GWS). Getting elite athletes like that into our league is good for footy, but it never would have been possible if the northern clubs didn't have incentive to recruit them from other sports and develop them into footballers.

If you remove the priority access to these juniors then the incentive for the northern clubs to develop them into top end draft prospects dies and we go back to the way things were 10+ years ago when the academies didn't exist and we saw virtually zero first round prospects coming out of the northern states. For some reason, southerners have it in their mind that if you just open up access to these players for every club then everything else will remain the same. That's a flawed understanding of what's going on. The same thing happened with the NGAs when priority access was removed and we essentially saw the production line of top end talent stop coming through. It's really not that hard to understand, but people down south don't get it for some reason.

Very simple, let the AFL run it.

Yes I know you will say “ oh they do a terrible job”. If that’s the case then it’s obviously not a huge priority to “grow the game” if the AFL invests little in it.

Expansion is the AFL’s job, not the clubs job to benefit themselves on field.

Sydney/GWS/Brisbane/GC couldn’t give a stuff about developing the game, they only care about striking gold.

Sydney even gets their academy sponsored by QBS.

 

[.Shotties.]

Sydney even gets their academy sponsored by QBS.

Travesty!

 

[Elixuh]

Brisbane also got spoon fed high draft picks such as Schache, McCluggage, Rayner etc while my club have only had two top 10 picks since 2007.

I didn't realise the Ford factory contaminated the drinking water so badly

 

[name change]

I didn't realise the Ford factory contaminated the drinking water so badly

Not as badly as that brewery in Milton does.

 

[GC2015]

Very simple, let the AFL run it.

Yes I know you will say “ oh they do a terrible job”. If that’s the case then it’s obviously not a huge priority to “grow the game” if the AFL invests little in it.

Expansion is the AFL’s job, not the clubs job to benefit themselves on field.

Sydney/GWS/Brisbane/GC couldn’t give a stuff about developing the game, they only care about striking gold.

Sydney even gets their academy sponsored by QBS.

The thing is - it's not simple. If the AFL could run junior development programs as successfully as the northern teams do (within a reasonable budget obviously), then they would. FYI they've tried and failed in the past. One of the biggest issues in Queensland and New South Wales is convincing high level coaches to move interstate and coach/develop these kids into draftable talent.

In Victoria, you've got legends of the game like Matty Lloyd coaching the Haileybury school team. Imagine being a student at Haileybury and getting coached by Matthew Lloyd every week while chasing your dream of becoming an AFL player. It's going to take a long time before we have the luxury of something like that in Queensland or New South Wales.

Rhyce Shaw is the mastermind behind the Suns' recent academy successes and that was only possible because he moved to the Gold Coast to pursue an assistant coaching role with the AFL team. The truth is, coaches want to be involved with an AFL club because it gives them the best chance of one day achieving their ultimate goal of being an AFL head coach.

Look at Luke Power - he spent several years coaching the AFL national academy team before accepting an assistant coaching role at Carlton. He knew there was a ceiling when it came to coaching juniors through the AFL programs and took up the opportunity to enter club land when they came knocking on his door.

A guy like Rhyce Shaw is simply not going to move to rugby league heartland areas to coach juniors for the AFL unless he gets offered ridiculous money to do so (which the AFL won't do). He's always going to prioritise club land jobs and the beauty of the northern academies is that it actually achieves both goals of exposing local juniors to high level coaching AND giving the coach an opportunity to work for an AFL club.

I know you don't like it, but the simple fact is the northern academy model has proven to be the best way to develop QLD & NSW juniors into draftable talent. Get used to it - it's not changing any time soon.

 

[Bjo187]

The thing is - it's not simple. If the AFL could run junior development programs as successfully as the northern teams do (within a reasonable budget obviously), then they would. FYI they've tried and failed in the past. One of the biggest issues in Queensland and New South Wales is convincing high level coaches to move interstate and coach/develop these kids into draftable talent.

In Victoria, you've got legends of the game like Matty Lloyd coaching the Haileybury school team. Imagine being a student at Haileybury and getting coached by Matthew Lloyd every week while chasing your dream of becoming an AFL player. It's going to take a long time before we have the luxury of something like that in Queensland or New South Wales.

Rhyce Shaw is the mastermind behind the Suns' recent academy successes and that was only possible because he moved to the Gold Coast to pursue an assistant coaching role with the AFL team. The truth is, coaches want to be involved with an AFL club because it gives them the best chance of one day achieving their ultimate goal of being an AFL head coach.

Look at Luke Power - he spent several years coaching the AFL national academy team before accepting an assistant coaching role at Carlton. He knew there was a ceiling when it came to coaching juniors through the AFL programs and took up the opportunity to enter club land when they came knocking on his door.

A guy like Rhyce Shaw is simply not going to move to rugby league heartland areas to coach juniors for the AFL unless he gets offered ridiculous money to do so (which the AFL won't do). He's always going to prioritise club land jobs and the beauty of the northern academies is that it actually achieves both goals of exposing local juniors to high level coaching AND giving the coach an opportunity to work for an AFL club.

I know you don't like it, but the simple fact is the northern academy model has proven to be the best way to develop QLD & NSW juniors into draftable talent. Get used to it - it's not changing any time soon.

I agree with all your points but Iona college just got Rockliff as their coach, another school just got dunkley as their coach and there are a lot of ex afl players in QLD now coaching in both junior and senior footy. It might be one of the reasons we're seeing such quality coming outta QLD now.

 

[GC2015]

I agree with all your points but Iona college just got Rockliff as their coach, another school just got dunkley as their coach and there are a lot of ex afl players in QLD now coaching in both junior and senior footy. It might be one of the reasons we're seeing such quality coming outta QLD now.

Good on them. That's a real positive for school footy in Brisbane. To be fair, neither are on the same level as Matthew Lloyd in terms of their standing in the history of the game, but it's still great news. Also, I'm not sure how much time Josh Dunkley will have to dedicate to his coaching role at St Laurie's, but it'll still be a great kick for the students there to learn from a current AFL premiership player. One thing we really need to take more advantage of in Queensland is keeping former Suns and Lions players based in south east Queensland and getting them involved in footy at the local level. The flow on effects from that alone can be massive.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

The thing is - it's not simple. If the AFL could run junior development programs as successfully as the northern teams do (within a reasonable budget obviously), then they would. FYI they've tried and failed in the past. One of the biggest issues in Queensland and New South Wales is convincing high level coaches to move interstate and coach/develop these kids into draftable talent.

In Victoria, you've got legends of the game like Matty Lloyd coaching the Haileybury school team. Imagine being a student at Haileybury and getting coached by Matthew Lloyd every week while chasing your dream of becoming an AFL player. It's going to take a long time before we have the luxury of something like that in Queensland or New South Wales.

Rhyce Shaw is the mastermind behind the Suns' recent academy successes and that was only possible because he moved to the Gold Coast to pursue an assistant coaching role with the AFL team. The truth is, coaches want to be involved with an AFL club because it gives them the best chance of one day achieving their ultimate goal of being an AFL head coach.

Look at Luke Power - he spent several years coaching the AFL national academy team before accepting an assistant coaching role at Carlton. He knew there was a ceiling when it came to coaching juniors through the AFL programs and took up the opportunity to enter club land when they came knocking on his door.

A guy like Rhyce Shaw is simply not going to move to rugby league heartland areas to coach juniors for the AFL unless he gets offered ridiculous money to do so (which the AFL won't do). He's always going to prioritise club land jobs and the beauty of the northern academies is that it actually achieves both goals of exposing local juniors to high level coaching AND giving the coach an opportunity to work for an AFL club.

I know you don't like it, but the simple fact is the northern academy model has proven to be the best way to develop QLD & NSW juniors into draftable talent. Get used to it - it's not changing any time soon.

That’s fantastic but all of this can be done with the AFL running it. The AFL has more resources at its disposal than any one club. It’s the only way to make it equitable. Have the AFL run it and whoever drafts them drafts them.

 

[Taper]

Ultimately, discounts aside and NGA and other father son aside, matched picks just mean Brisbane and Gold Coast don't pick some other player from outside Qld.

Like I said earlier in this thread, my club would need to have the Falcons as an academy to put us on a level playing field with the Suns and Lions.

No they are not. They are a long long long way from matching WA for talent.

Have you checked the talent coming through the system in QLD? If the current trajectory continues we'll see QLD overtake WA within the next decade.
Australian Football is massive in QLD and it'll overtake rugby league once the new stadium is built at Victoria Park, leaving NSW as the only state in Australia where Australian Football isn't the number one code.

That got high picks when they were finishing near the bottom????

High picks that my club don't have access to due to finishing top 4 every year.
Nakia Cockatoo and Jhye Clark are the only top 10 picks we've had since 2007.
Compare that to the Suns and Lions and it's chalk and cheese.

 

[jonnobackpocket]

Like I said earlier in this thread, my club would need to have the Falcons as an academy to put us on a level playing field with the Suns and Lions.

Have you checked the talent coming through the system in QLD? If the current trajectory continues we'll see QLD overtake WA within the next decade.
Australian Football is massive in QLD and it'll overtake rugby league once the new stadium is built at Victoria Park, leaving NSW as the only state in Australia where Australian Football isn't the number one code.

High picks that my club don't have access to due to finishing top 4 every year.
Nakia Cockatoo and Jhye Clark are the only top 10 picks we've had since 2007.
Compare that to the Suns and Lions and it's chalk and cheese.

THATS HOW IT WORKS, its not just Geelong, Christ, what are you on about.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

THATS HOW IT WORKS, its not just Geelong, Christ, what are you on about.

The academies will get slowly phased out or taken over by the AFL.

There is only so much of a consistent compromise you can give before other clubs say enough is enough and push hard for rule changes.

If we continue to see first rounds of drafts chewed up by academy kids, what do you think will happen??

 

[jonnobackpocket]

The academies will get slowly phased out or taken over by the AFL.

There is only so much of a consistent compromise you can give before other clubs say enough is enough and push hard for rule changes.

If we continue to see first rounds of drafts chewed up by academy kids, what do you think will happen??

What has this got to do with Brisbane getting early picks because they finished near the bottom of the ladder like old mate is having a whinge about?

 

[Bjo187]

The academies will get slowly phased out or taken over by the AFL.

There is only so much of a consistent compromise you can give before other clubs say enough is enough and push hard for rule changes.

If we continue to see first rounds of drafts chewed up by academy kids, what do you think will happen??

I don't think so, I think the southern clubs would be smart to invest in their multicultural academies and it will even things out, now that they can pick them anywhere. The dumbest thing the afl ever did was move it to only players outside the top 40 eligible, clubs stopped investing.

You've gotta remember, as an example, the Sydney footy competition is about equivalent size to the edfl, which is Essendon's zone. So Essendon should therefore pour bucket loads of money into developing the multicultural kids through the schools and local footy club's in their zone, to get the benefits.

The system will work well now. In fact the w.a and s.a clubs might have an advantage with more aboriginals in their state per capita and only 2 clubs in each state. It's why the academies shouldn't include kids that are 1/25th aboriginal, as to be academy eligible as a multicultural kid, a parent has to be born in Africa or Asia, so the kid needs to be minimum 50 percent of that nationality.

Obviously the Victorian clubs have more multicultural players in their zones though, with Melbourne's higher diversity, but the other states have more aboriginals, so it's evened out pretty well now I think. Even the cats will get rongdit this year as an academy pick.

The one change I would like to see is the n.t academy go to the giants, as the gold coast are churning out enough talent already and w.s has the highest number of indigenous in the country, so it would be good for the w.s team to reflect that, at least till they start producing more local talent.

 

[GC2015]

High picks that my club don't have access to due to finishing top 4 every year.
Nakia Cockatoo and Jhye Clark are the only top 10 picks we've had since 2007.
Compare that to the Suns and Lions and it's chalk and cheese.

You really don't understand how the draft works, do you? You're trying so hard to push the narrative that the only reason Geelong lost to Brisbane last year is because of the northern academies. It's simply not true. Only 3 of the 23 players that lined up for Brisbane in the GF came from their academy. It's time to accept the fact that Brisbane not only outperformed Geelong on the field, but also in trades, free agency and drafting.