Rumour Bluemour Discussion XXXVII

[WalshistheGOAT]

Aren't you advocating for us tanking next season to get picks one and two?

Yes he is

 

[GoBlues!]

On the same note, a player losing more games than he wins can still be a positive influence on culture.

We didn't have success with Chris Judd, but he was a good pick-up for club culture.

Judd was terrific and his on field performance and leadership was what we needed. On the other hand I’m not sure he was that influential in our off field culture. That debacle with Casboult and the boat cruise, wasn’t his greatest moment as captain.

We digress, I think the original post was more about trading out highly paid questionable Value for Money players to improve our team list. And whether trading out that player will affect culture and rip apart the fabric of the club. Collingwood, Hawthorn and Geelong have done in the past and their current cultures are the ones being promoted as the best in the AFL atm.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Aren't you advocating for us tanking next season to get picks one and two?

Yep.

Accept reality, not fantasy... there is no winning/good culture at Carlton. There just isn't, and there's no evidence you can provide to counter that statement.

For it to grow, we have to get a rebuild right. Another thing we just have to accept we got wrong.

So, we either get to work on that now... or we cling to what we have hoping that at age 30+ this core group can finally get it together...

I know which option I'd want us to take and I stick to that unreservedly.

Clinging onto this group only results in one path imo... finish around 13th next year, slide a bit further down in 2027, Tassie have the power for a couple years and we're in no man's land with a core group all starting to retire with no flags to show for our 10+ year rebuild.

But, if we play our cards right, we can build a very strong core once again much sooner. Voss will be gone by end of 2026. New coach will come in, new assistants... what better way to kick off a rebuild than to have picks 1+2+Cody all coming in to start 2027 season... by 2030, we will still have a few of our current best players and I see that as the year we start to contend.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Yes he is

You're trying so hard to press

 

[macky99]

Yep.

Accept reality, not fantasy... there is no winning/good culture at Carlton. There just isn't, and there's no evidence you can provide to counter that statement.

For it to grow, we have to get a rebuild right. Another thing we just have to accept we got wrong.

So, we either get to work on that now... or we cling to what we have hoping that at age 30+ this core group can finally get it together...

I know which option I'd want us to take and I stick to that unreservedly.

Clinging onto this group only results in one path imo... finish around 13th next year, slide a bit further down in 2027, Tassie have the power for a couple years and we're in no man's land with a core group all starting to retire with no flags to show for our 10+ year rebuild.

But, if we play our cards right, we can build a very strong core once again much sooner. Voss will be gone by end of 2026. New coach will come in, new assistants... what better way to kick off a rebuild than to have picks 1+2+Cody all coming in to start 2027 season... by 2030, we will still have a few of our current best players and I see that as the year we start to contend.

There is very little evidence to support basically tanking & essentially playing for draft picks being a pathway to success.

Also no guarantee Voss will be there next year.
Whilst the list definitely needs some improvement via the various avenues free agency & draft etc.
The teams that continue to be strong absolutely do not consider this as a pathway to success.

We look to have some good young players in Walker & Dean coming if we can find a few more we are on the way.
Losing TDK is enough if that happens no need to gut the list and be a bottom team for the next 5 years.

The best teams have quality small & medium forwards, Austin has failed in this area without doubt.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Judd was terrific and his on field performance and leadership was what we needed. On the other hand I’m not sure he was that influential in our off field culture. That debacle with Casboult and the boat cruise, wasn’t his greatest moment as captain.

We digress, I think the original post was more about trading out highly paid questionable Value for Money players to improve our team list. And whether trading out that player will affect culture and rip apart the fabric of the club. Collingwood, Hawthorn and Geelong have done in the past and their current cultures are the ones being promoted as the best in the AFL atm.

Right, but it was claimed that all but Weitering were on the table.

I'd argue that the Pies didn't trade out anyone critical to their culture. If they put Pendlebury up, that would have been detrimental.

I would understand Harry, Charlie or Walshy being put up if that's the way we want to go.

 

[BlueBlood15]

There is very little evidence to support basically tanking & essentially playing for draft picks being a pathway to success.

Also no guarantee Voss will be there next year.
Whilst the list definitely needs some improvement via the various avenues free agency & draft etc.
The teams that continue to be strong absolutely do not consider this as a pathway to success.

We look to have some good young players in Walker & Dean coming if we can find a few more we are on the way.
Losing TDK is enough if that happens no need to gut the list and be a bottom team for the next 5 years.

A look back at the past 15 pick 1s proves your point:
2010 David Swallow - reasonable player, never played a final
2011 John Patton - out of the league within 5 or so years - didn’t move the needle for GWS
2012 Whitfield - very good player, has helped GWS but hasn’t won a flag
2013 Tom Boyd - one year at the giants and gone, didn’t help them
2014 Paddy McCartin - didn’t help the saints at all
2015 Weiters - very good player but again hasn’t seen success
2016 McGrath - Essendon 21 years without a finals win
2017 Rayner - reasonable example of a player who was important to winning a flag
2018 Walsh - see Weiters
2019 Rowell - hasn’t played a final but GC are tracking up
2020 Jamarra - about to be gone from the dogs and has hardly been the catalyst for any success there
2021 JHF - left North after 1 year in a bigger hole than when he got there
2022-2024 Cadman, Reid and Lalor - way too early to tell

Many of these guys failed due to injuries and other issues which shows the problem with pinning all your hopes on one or a couple of players.

Many of these guys haven’t failed at all individually and are good players but it shows one 18 year old draftee will not turn the fortunes of a club around.

While I’ve got my issues with the club, I’m pretty sure even we’re not stupid enough to intentionally go down this path.

 

[Thrawn]

Yep.

Accept reality, not fantasy... there is no winning/good culture at Carlton. There just isn't, and there's no evidence you can provide to counter that statement.

For it to grow, we have to get a rebuild right. Another thing we just have to accept we got wrong.

So, we either get to work on that now... or we cling to what we have hoping that at age 30+ this core group can finally get it together...

I know which option I'd want us to take and I stick to that unreservedly.

Clinging onto this group only results in one path imo... finish around 13th next year, slide a bit further down in 2027, Tassie have the power for a couple years and we're in no man's land with a core group all starting to retire with no flags to show for our 10+ year rebuild.

But, if we play our cards right, we can build a very strong core once again much sooner. Voss will be gone by end of 2026. New coach will come in, new assistants... what better way to kick off a rebuild than to have picks 1+2+Cody all coming in to start 2027 season... by 2030, we will still have a few of our current best players and I see that as the year we start to contend.

Embracing a losing culture. Gibbs, Murphy, Kruezer, Walsh, Weitering, etc - none of them have given us sustained success or a flag. Pick one and two next year will be the same thing. Get that shitty idea outta here.

 

[Thrawn]

Right, but it was claimed that all but Weitering were on the table.

I'd argue that the Pies didn't trade out anyone critical to their culture. If they put Pendlebury up, that would have been detrimental.

I would understand Harry, Charlie or Walshy being put up if that's the way we want to go.

I would trade Mr "No rush to win a flag" McKay first. We should not have players on our list who aren't hungry for success.

 

[ctwenty1]

I would trade Mr "No rush to win a flag" McKay first. We should not have players on our list who aren't hungry for success.

Yeah- love him but that comment doesn’t sit well with me

Need people in the club to want finish eating breakfast first ie wnat to win everything, all the time

 

[ferrisb]

He was beloved. One of my favourite games was where the team fought and bled to win for Simmo in his 250th. Bryce Gibbs was throwing up if I recall correctly. The outpouring of emotion was immense.

If Bryce Gibbs could have played every match against Geelong when half our midfield was missing, he'd have won 10 brownlows!

 

[Lace_Out]

You’ve got an incredibly short memory

He was incompetent as a president.

Sayers at least gelled the club together.

Notice how things have gone backwards as soon as he left?

 

[Stamos]

He was incompetent as a president.

Sayers at least gelled the club together.

Notice how things have gone backwards as soon as he left?

Incompetent?
You obviously can’t remember the position the club was in when he took over?
Nor a few of our previous presidents who helped put us in that position.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Embracing a losing culture. Gibbs, Murphy, Kruezer, Walsh, Weitering, etc - none of them have given us sustained success or a flag. Pick one and two next year will be the same thing. Get that shitty idea outta here.

Where did I say we should "embrace" a losing culture? I said need to accept the fact that that is where Carlton is at, and has been for quite a while now...

Rebuilding a youthful core group with higher draft picks is a much better idea than persisting with the current set we have...

I would trade Mr "No rush to win a flag" McKay first. We should not have players on our list who aren't hungry for success.

And now you say this...

So, you don't want us to lose games, but you advocate to trade one of our best players...

Have you had a good look at our wins this year? We are losing TDK... we lose Harry as well we will really struggle to win games, you're not replacing them with gun ready made players, no club is going to let go of a gun in a trade for Harry and TDK gives us a compo pick...

Without them, we would only have 2 wins right now and be sitting 17th half way through the season...

This is what I've been saying, we trade Harry, lose TDK and we will be so far from a finals contending side next year... we're finishing bottom 4 anyway.

Is there really that much difference between that and last? In terms of the draft it could have a very significant impact...

 

[GoBlues!]

Right, but it was claimed that all but Weitering were on the table.

I'd argue that the Pies didn't trade out anyone critical to their culture. If they put Pendlebury up, that would have been detrimental.

I would understand Harry, Charlie or Walshy being put up if that's the way we want to go.

Yeah, I was thinking someone along the lines of Harry or Walsh if it enabled us to get a high calibre player like a Butters or Reid. I think we’re short a couple of quality players between the arcs and a modern game style.

How great is our culture currently. You raise an interesting question TODN - who on our list is Pendle like critical to our culture that shouldn’t be on trade table?

 

[Blue_Fusion]

There is very little evidence to support basically tanking & essentially playing for draft picks being a pathway to success.

Most of the best players in the comp have been drafted early... fact.

Also no guarantee Voss will be there next year.

Doesn't matter whether he is or isn't, a new coach isn't going to magically change our fortunes lol how many coaches has this group been through before people realise that?

Whilst the list definitely needs some improvement via the various avenues free agency & draft etc.
The teams that continue to be strong absolutely do not consider this as a pathway to success.

The list needs an overhaul... not a few improvements here and there. Have a look at how many best 22 are going to be 30+ next year... playing a contested style of game and lacking foot skills... don't compare that to Collingwood.

Geelong are cheats.

Pies drafted Pendles, De Goey, Sidebottom, got 3 elite F/S...

Sydney and Lions Academy and F/S gun players

We look to have some good young players in Walker & Dean coming if we can find a few more we are on the way.

Walker is 2027 rd1 as an 18 year old.

We need to bring in a bunch of high draft picks, not all of them will make it!

Losing TDK is enough if that happens no need to gut the list and be a bottom team for the next 5 years.

Not what I'm saying... we will be a bottom team next year but climb back up very quickly if we implement it properly.

2024: Smith + HOF + Campos
2025: pick 7 (Harry trade) + pick 8 (TDK compo) + Dean + Ison
2026: pick 1 (18th finish) + pick 2 (Walsh compo) + Cody bid (pick from trading Harry to help with this)

There's 11 players there that can be our next core group. They will still have:

Ollie + Cowan + Weiters + Jack + Charlie + Lord + Cerra + Cottrell + Kemp

Cripps might still be going playing primarily as a forward from 2027-2030

The best teams have quality small & medium forwards, Austin has failed in this area without doubt.

Yeah because Silvagni ****ed up our midfield!

 

[Lace_Out]

Incompetent?
You obviously can’t remember the position the club was in when he took over?
Nor a few of our previous presidents who helped put us in that position.

He was a pig who stuck with his own group, ignoring past players.

 

[Thrawn]

Where did I say we should "embrace" a losing culture? I said need to accept the fact that that is where Carlton is at, and has been for quite a while now...

You're doing exactly that to suggest deliberately losing games to pick up two teenagers who won't take us to our next premiership. It creates an acceptance of mediocrity, something that has been a cancer in our club for a long time now.

And now you say this...

So, you don't want us to lose games, but you advocate to trade one of our best players...

Really?

Apart from a couple of games, he's either been terrible or hasn't even been playing. Wouldn't even be in the top 5 in our B&F.

Have you had a good look at our wins this year? We are losing TDK... we lose Harry as well we will really struggle to win games, you're not replacing them with gun ready made players, no club is going to let go of a gun in a trade for Harry and TDK gives us a compo pick...

"Ready-made players"... define that, because what have they done all year? If they're disinterested, we'd be better off playing someone who actually wants it.

Without them, we would only have 2 wins right now and be sitting 17th half way through the season...

You don't know that. Just remember that with every change, the sequence of new events change. They don't stay the same. For all we know, Charlie fills in that void (as he's done in the past) and kicks a bag in some of these games. Maybe the replacement falls over on an opposition star player's knee and accidentally takes them out of the game, making things even? The universe is funny that way.

Is there really that much difference between that and last? In terms of the draft it could have a very significant impact...

I've seen this movie before.

 

[chickendippas]

Where did I say we should "embrace" a losing culture? I said need to accept the fact that that is where Carlton is at, and has been for quite a while now...

Rebuilding a youthful core group with higher draft picks is a much better idea than persisting with the current set of over paid losers we have...

Respect your opinion but I can’t agree with the bolded.

This is the approach we took with Weitering, Curnow, McKay and Walsh who are now ‘overpaid losers’. We did the same with Keizer, Murphy and Gibbs before them.

We should be asking why we keep finding ourselves in this position rather than going back to the same well that just doesn’t work.

As others have said, from the outside in I would question the strength and talent of our football leadership across all levels of the club. This unfortunately starts at the top (board) and permeates down from there. Whilst Diesel was an incredible footballer, he doesn’t scream one to really drive accountability, standards and culture. I think Voss tries and so do our onfield leaders for the most part, however, there genuinely seems to be that lack of common purpose.

The thing that stood out to me when listening to Sam Mitchell at the start of the year was that new people at the club are expected to learn ‘the Hawthorn way’. That might just be bs but you can tell with the really successful clubs over the last 20 years, everyone at the club buys in to what the club stands for and the way they work together to achieve the ultimate success. Great leadership builds great leadership. Would be genuinely curious what ‘the Carlton way’ is besides sticking together.

I don’t think it’s all doom and gloom, what I’m trying to say is the club as a whole needs to look back at why we haven’t been able to nail it from the top down and put all egos aside. Whether we can do that or not is a completely different story.

 

[bradfisher14]

who on our list is Pendle like critical to our culture that shouldn’t be on trade table?

Nobody.

But here are the players I would keep for culture: Weitering, Jagga, Newman, Cripps, Hewett, Silvagni, Cincotta.

 

[Stamos]

He was a pig who stuck with his own group, ignoring past players.

A pig?
Geez.

LoGiudice was able to wipe 7 million of debt, make our club debt free for the first time in a quarter century, and stop us needing to be an AFL assisted club.
Compare to Elliot who nearly sent us bankrupt, and Collins who moved us to his Docklands.

Not even close to being our worst president.

 

[macky99]

Most of the best players in the comp have been drafted early... fact.



Doesn't matter whether he is or isn't, a new coach isn't going to magically change our fortunes lol how many coaches has this group been through before people realise that?



The list needs an overhaul... not a few improvements here and there. Have a look at how many best 22 are going to be 30+ next year... playing a contested style of game and lacking foot skills... don't compare that to Collingwood.

Geelong are cheats.

Pies drafted Pendles, De Goey, Sidebottom, got 3 elite F/S...

Sydney and Lions Academy and F/S gun players



Walker is 2027 rd1 as an 18 year old.

We need to bring in a bunch of high draft picks, not all of them will make it!



Not what I'm saying... we will be a bottom team next year but climb back up very quickly if we implement it properly.

2024: Smith + HOF + Campos
2025: pick 7 (Harry trade) + pick 8 (TDK compo) + Dean + Ison
2026: pick 1 (18th finish) + pick 2 (Walsh compo) + Cody bid (pick from trading Harry to help with this)

There's 11 players there that can be our next core group. They will still have:

Ollie + Cowan + Weiters + Jack + Charlie + Lord + Cerra + Cottrell + Kemp

Cripps might still be going playing primarily as a forward from 2027-2030



Yeah because Silvagni ****ed up our midfield!

Agree to disagree on this topic, the thought process of drafting a large group of young kids again is a solution that is not going to happen so many other elements are part of the end result.

lt needs to a mix of draft & free agency & not gutting the list.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Yeah, I was thinking someone along the lines of Harry or Walsh if it enabled us to get a high calibre player like a Butters or Reid. I think we’re short a couple of quality players between the arcs and a modern game style.

How great is our culture currently. You raise an interesting question TODN - who on our list is Pendle like critical to our culture that shouldn’t be on trade table?

Cripps, and IMO Silvagni. Many will disagree with the latter I think, but it is important to how I feel about the team.

They are a tight knit group. Hardly anyone leaves. So they have a good off field culture. The on field issues don't have to be because of culture. They could be that we're not good enough, or there is a level of incompetence driving it.

 

[BlueTongue]

Yep.

Accept reality, not fantasy... there is no winning/good culture at Carlton. There just isn't, and there's no evidence you can provide to counter that statement.

For it to grow, we have to get a rebuild right. Another thing we just have to accept we got wrong.

So, we either get to work on that now... or we cling to what we have hoping that at age 30+ this core group can finally get it together...

I know which option I'd want us to take and I stick to that unreservedly.

Clinging onto this group only results in one path imo... finish around 13th next year, slide a bit further down in 2027, Tassie have the power for a couple years and we're in no man's land with a core group all starting to retire with no flags to show for our 10+ year rebuild.

But, if we play our cards right, we can build a very strong core once again much sooner. Voss will be gone by end of 2026. New coach will come in, new assistants... what better way to kick off a rebuild than to have picks 1+2+Cody all coming in to start 2027 season... by 2030, we will still have a few of our current best players and I see that as the year we start to contend.

Unless you are a team of an outgoing Dynasty or have a bunch of older players and have decided to top up with trades, I think the rebuild has been shown to be inefficient.

Ultimately the goal is team balance and cohesion, which a full rebuild doesn't provide from day 1 (as well as the dice roll of nailing the draft every time). Bringing newer draftees into a well entrenched system, where they are looked after by older harder bodies, and get a chance to ease into a system, and slowly replacing your oldest retirees & delisting's as required, while identifying gettable targets and filling the holes with free agents where required, should be modus operandum IMHO.

Rebuilds are not the way to go unless your hand is forced to do so.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

You're doing exactly that to suggest deliberately losing games to pick up two teenagers who won't take us to our next premiership. It creates an acceptance of mediocrity, something that has been a cancer in our club for a long time now.

Which is my point, club is mediocre. I can't see that changing with the core group, footy department and coaches we have. Which is why I believe we need to do a mini rebuild.

Really?

Apart from a couple of games, he's either been terrible or hasn't even been playing. Wouldn't even be in the top 5 in our B&F.

Oh I agree he's been average... I've been saying we should trade him for weeks now. But he is still one of our best players and a big reason we beat Geelong and St Kilda this year.

"Ready-made players"... define that, because what have they done all year? If they're disinterested, we'd be better off playing someone who actually wants it.

So we trade Harry, we need something back right? Either draft picks (which I'm assuming you're not in favour of given the context) or we get ready made players for him. I can't see clubs getting rid of them to bring in Harry.

You don't know that. Just remember that with every change, the sequence of new events change. They don't stay the same. For all we know, Charlie fills in that void (as he's done in the past) and kicks a bag in some of these games. Maybe the replacement falls over on an opposition star player's knee and accidentally takes them out of the game, making things even? The universe is funny that way.

Well, of course I don't know... it's an opinion.. but an educated one given the impact they had in those games. Pitto isn't filing in the TDK void, we know this by now surely...

As for Charlie, he hasn't put in a consistent 4 quarter performance all year... in fact, we've mostly been getting 1 half from him and nowhere to be seen in the other half...

I've seen this movie before.

Ok, look at it this way. Come 2026 draft night we have say pick 6 because of finishing 13th. Richmond finishes 17th and bids on Cody. We match, say bye bye to pick 6 we bring in Cody.

Or, we finish last take pick 1, pick 2 (Walsh compo) and then match a bid for Cody.

Either way, we have had an unacceptable season... for the sake of a few ladder spots and maybe 2-3 wins, we miss out on the potential of bringing in another 2 guns.

The movies you've seen were made by people who didn't have much of a clue about what they were doing...

I'm hoping that this time, with Graham Wright leading the way, they can finally get it right.

If we do, we then have a foundation to build a winning culture on... right now it's broken we've won 6 of the last 20 games and 4 of those were against WC and North...