Toast Round 13 = Melbourne 71-72 Collingwood

[Gaspard]

Does anyone remember the Brent MaCaffer tag on Trent Cotchin in 2014? Yes, Ed Langdons idol. It was described as a hard tag then, and was not sustainable to be allowed that heavy in the following matches.

Yes. The outcry was deafening. As it should have been. Scragging players without the ball has always been against the rules, even during the periods when Silvagni made it an art form and the umpiring of the day allowed it.

The AFL rules people have always been a bit thick when it comes to these things. A clear statement that something is not allowed, followed by enforcement of the rules is what is always required. instead, nothing is said, and we have to wait for the next round to see how the umpires have been directed to act on the latest assault on the rules by a player or coach.

For God's sake, tell us beforehand if something is going to be allowed when it wasn't before, so we can just enjoy the game.

The shilly shallying around deliberate out of bounds is the most obvious example of the refusal to be clear. We all know that "last touch" is where the rules people want to go, but they are unwilling to say it. Personally, this is one where the rules were fine before in my view. So what if a player gets the ball out of bounds without it going on the full? We have a whole on ball brigade in every team to deal with the throw in. And don't get me started (again) on high tackles.

 

[Apex36]

This is bang on. Nothing this year suggests to me that Cox could have replicated what McStay did on Monday. Goal from 40 out on an angle and a great contested mark and goal in the last quarter.

We need to put an end to this Cox debate. I think those who are pro Cox like the idea of him being in the team vs what's a realistic output from him at the moment.

I really want him to find some form but there's not a single game this season where we can say that we wouldn't have won if it wasn't for Cox.

The pro Cox crowd are still of the belief that he’ll magically go back to the 2023 version. He won’t. The changes in ruck rules have made him far less effective as a ruck and he cant hold his marks or even halve contests in the way he used to.

 

[Apex36]

Yes. The outcry was deafening. As it should have been. Scragging players without the ball has always been against the rules, even during the periods when Silvagni made it an art form and the umpiring of the day allowed it.

The AFL rules people have always been a bit thick when it comes to these things. A clear statement that something is not allowed, followed by enforcement of the rules is what is always required. instead, nothing is said, and we have to wait for the next round to see how the umpires have been directed to act on the latest assault on the rules by a player or coach.

For God's sake, tell us beforehand if something is going to be allowed when it wasn't before, so we can just enjoy the game.

The shilly shallying around deliberate out of bounds is the most obvious example of the refusal to be clear. We all know that "last touch" is where the rules people want to go, but they are unwilling to say it. Personally, this is one where the rules were fine before in my view. So what if a player gets the ball out of bounds without it going on the full? We have a whole on ball brigade in every team to deal with the throw in. And don't get me started (again) on high tackles.

I remember this too, but the reaction from the footy public was the complete opposite this week because “Collingwood”.
Macaffer was a dirty dog using dirty tactics, Langdon was amazing and did an “old school” job.

The difference in rhetoric is astounding.

 

[gouki88]

I remember this too, but the reaction from the footy public was the complete opposite this week because “Collingwood”.
Macaffer was a dirty dog using dirty tactics, Langdon was amazing and did an “old school” job.

The difference in rhetoric is astounding.

Yeah, this is my recollection. McCaffer was (pretty fairly IMO) called out for the tactics employed, but now they are some throwback to a time gone by - we should be glad we don't see that kind of BS each week!

 

[Robroy22]

Did you notice that we started the season with Cameron and McStay?

Certainly I did, and by the time we got to Brisbane, Cox had been brought back in (smart thinking against Oscar). As good as Cameron is at marking around the ground, he's still to master either Gawn, Witts or McInnerney (taller, left handed ruckmen....well Gawn uses both but he switches on Darcy). So Cox (also a taller, left handed ruck contestant) is better suited to these types of opponents and I'd hope we'd keep that front of mind because all these rucks play for fellow finals contestants.

The point of "rucking" McStay at centre bounces is mute these days because he's a "jumping ruckman" and all the other beasts are currently able under AFL rules to wrestle him out of the contest....we might as well send Frampton or Checkers in there to wrestlemania.

 

[sideswipe]

Certainly I did, and by the time we got to Brisbane, Cox had been brought back in (smart thinking against Oscar). As good as Cameron is at marking around the ground, he's still to master either Gawn, Witts or McInnerney (taller, left handed ruckmen....well Gawn uses both but he switches on Darcy). So Cox (also a taller, left handed ruck contestant) is better suited to these types of opponents and I'd hope we'd keep that front of mind because all these rucks play for fellow finals contestants.

The point of "rucking" McStay at centre bounces is mute these days because he's a "jumping ruckman" and all the other beasts are currently able under AFL rules to wrestle him out of the contest....we might as well send Frampton or Checkers in there to wrestlemania.

Moot, not mute.

And Cox 25 isn't Cox 23. His 8 hitouts against Bris this year should reinforce that.

 

[Apex36]

Certainly I did, and by the time we got to Brisbane, Cox had been brought back in (smart thinking against Oscar). As good as Cameron is at marking around the ground, he's still to master either Gawn, Witts or McInnerney (taller, left handed ruckmen....well Gawn uses both but he switches on Darcy). So Cox (also a taller, left handed ruck contestant) is better suited to these types of opponents and I'd hope we'd keep that front of mind because all these rucks play for fellow finals contestants.

The point of "rucking" McStay at centre bounces is mute these days because he's a "jumping ruckman" and all the other beasts are currently able under AFL rules to wrestle him out of the contest....we might as well send Frampton or Checkers in there to wrestlemania.

Firstly, it’s “moot” not mute.

Secondly, Cox is a jumping ruckman who gets pushed out of contests far more easily than the strong bodied McStay. All you’ve done here is accidentally advocated for McStay over Cox.

 

[Mollythedolly]

Moot, not mute.

And Cox 25 isn't Cox 23. His 8 hitouts against Bris this year should reinforce that.

His 8 hitouts from 15 ruck contests in that match was the equal of Cameron’s 29 from 58, and better than McInerney (19/62) which I’d have thought was the objective.

 

[sideswipe]

His 8 hitouts from 15 ruck contests in that match was the equal of Cameron’s 29 from 58, and better than McInerney (19/62) which I’d have thought was the objective.

That he had 15 contests might give you an idea of how much he was needed. Love Big Mase, but he has been terrible this year. It's inarguable/

 

[Mollythedolly]

That he had 15 contests might give you an idea of how much he was needed. Love Big Mase, but he has been terrible this year. It's inarguable/

Even having had games where he’s been the number 1 ruckman which have elevated his numbers, he’s still only averaged 20 RCs a game across his entire career so I'm not sure why 15 in a game this year should send a specific message.

 

[sideswipe]

Even having had games where he’s been the number 1 ruckman which have elevated his numbers, he’s still only averaged 20 RCs a game across his entire career so I'm not sure why 15 in a game this year should send a specific message.

Tiresome. He's in the twos. And barring injury, I think the great man aint coming back.

 

[Pie thon]

Yes. The outcry was deafening. As it should have been. Scragging players without the ball has always been against the rules, even during the periods when Silvagni made it an art form and the umpiring of the day allowed it.

The AFL rules people have always been a bit thick when it comes to these things. A clear statement that something is not allowed, followed by enforcement of the rules is what is always required. instead, nothing is said, and we have to wait for the next round to see how the umpires have been directed to act on the latest assault on the rules by a player or coach.

For God's sake, tell us beforehand if something is going to be allowed when it wasn't before, so we can just enjoy the game.

The shilly shallying around deliberate out of bounds is the most obvious example of the refusal to be clear. We all know that "last touch" is where the rules people want to go, but they are unwilling to say it. Personally, this is one where the rules were fine before in my view. So what if a player gets the ball out of bounds without it going on the full? We have a whole on ball brigade in every team to deal with the throw in. And don't get me started (again) on high tackles.

I find the difference now days. Is that you can't throw an elbow like lethal Leigh would have on the tagger back in the day. Or have a Yates charge down the ground and collide brutally with the tagger to make them groggy.
To a lesser degree in modern times (prob 2009-11). I remember Clinton Jones had tagged Dane Swan well, then the following game against each other. Harry O was sent before the first bounce to jumped punch Clinton Jones and it started a melee. Then the tag didn't follow after all the intimidation.
Now days the umps need to pay early frees to bring balance to the player tagged not being able to be negated tactically with roughness anymore so the star players can entertain as we want to see

 

[Mick F]

I find the difference now days. Is that you can't throw an elbow like lethal Leigh would have on the tagger back in the day. Or have a Yates charge down the ground and collide brutally with the tagger to make them groggy.
To a lesser degree in modern times (prob 2009-11). I remember Clinton Jones had tagged Dane Swan well, then the following game against each other. Harry O was sent before the first bounce to jumped punch Clinton Jones and it started a melee. Then the tag didn't follow after all the intimidation.
Now days the umps need to pay early frees to bring balance to the player tagged not being able to be negated tactically with roughness anymore so the star players can entertain as we want to see

It is assault. If its not within the laws of the game it is assault. The Scott brothers should have been charged, for assault by the police, when striking Reiwoldt 60m away from the play.

 

[granniewolf]

I find the difference now days. Is that you can't throw an elbow like lethal Leigh would have on the tagger back in the day.

I have been wondering what is allowable for a player to do when a tagger has both arms around them. I could only think of two ways to break the tag, one would be to elbow in the gut, the other to stomp on his foot.
So, neither of these is allowed, so a player just has to cop the tag?
Surely there must be something that the tagged player can do to break the tag legally.

 

[Pie thon]

It is assault. If its not within the laws of the game it is assault. The Scott brothers should have been charged, for assault by the police, when striking Reiwoldt 60m away from the play.

You could legally do a lot. Even Varcoe in 2018 -2019 was electing to bump at full speed rather than tackle the player who was vulnerable grabbing the ball. Even once he left Prestia with fractured ribs.
It would be looked at now by the MRO, and probably better it has been stamped out.

 

[Pie eyed]

It was the other way around, Pies 29 Dees 20.

That was a tough watch. Rapt to get the win. Howe BOG for me, Steele next then Josh. Many of the team were uncharacteristically fumbly at ground level and it hurt our ball movement.

I couldn't reply on the day you posted cause I "got the day off!" for suggesting most Dees supporters were having their way with a snowman at Bright. lol.
The Sportsbet site had the free's arse about, I fell for it.

 

[jmac70]

I couldn't reply on the day you posted cause I "got the day off!" for suggesting most Dees supporters were having their way with a snowman at Bright. lol.
The Sportsbet site had the free's arse about, I fell for it.

How can you get a day off for telling the truth?

 

[Pie eyed]

Funny. I don’t see it being mentioned in the media but we defended for 10 minutes from the McStay goal to the end of the game

They talked up how we defended for 7 minutes in the 23 Qualifying Final. Today was 10.

Unreal effort.

Although it wasn't quite the same in terms of Melbourne just attacking relentlessly for those 10 minutes.

How can you get a day off for telling the truth?

LOL.

I worded it slightly differently

 

[Mollythedolly]

Tiresome. He's in the twos. And barring injury, I think the great man aint coming back.

I’m pretty confident we’ll see Coxy back at senior level in 2025.

 

[Doc1763]

Funny. I don’t see it being mentioned in the media but we defended for 10 minutes from the McStay goal to the end of the game

They talked up how we defended for 7 minutes in the 23 Qualifying Final. Today was 10.

Unreal effort.

Although it wasn't quite the same in terms of Melbourne just attacking relentlessly for those 10 minutes.

yep, I didn't realise that at the game, but watching the replay, there was about 10:30 left on the clock when McStay kicked that goal. Just incredible.

 

[JuniorB]

The pro Cox crowd are still of the belief that he’ll magically go back to the 2023 version. He won’t. The changes in ruck rules have made him far less effective as a ruck and he cant hold his marks or even halve contests in the way he used to.

On him holding his marks - there was one game this year, I don't remember which one, where he could have marked easily, but went one handed and knocked it OOB.
It suggests a loss of confidence in his own ability.
His time has come and gone.

 

[jmac70]

I’m pretty confident we’ll see Coxy back at senior level in 2025.

 

[Doc1763]

we know how well that ended.......

 

[No SPIN]

spoil leading to a easy melbourne goal , kicks straight to Gawn in the final minute to almost lose us the game , is beaten one on one by Jake Melksham who converts a goal he's not in good form at the moment unfortunately very 2024 esque performance yesterday

one clear mistake - the hold on Petty.

That’s it - Mung kick by Oliver fortunately landed in Melksums arms, Darcy wasn’t out marked. Contested Mark Melksum took was against Mioceck.
Are we really criticizing a kick into our forward pocket with 30 sec to go?

 

[Gaspard]

I don't know if Cox is at the end or not, but I would caution those writing his obituary to consider how quickly they (we) wrote off Sidebottom a few years ago, and where he is now.