Autopsy Saints forget how to kick a ball and lose to Hawthorn.

[Dard Ball Get]

Nas to Horx confirmed

 

[SaintsofSteel]

I cant believe people are keen to trade out Marshall when we cant win a contested mark or even bring the ball to the ground in our forward line. The guy is a heart and sole player who hardly misses a game and with King being such an enigma, I think we would be mad to even consider trading him. Even with King playing Marshall could play the CHF role getting up and down the wings well.

I have said it for the years that as a collective group we need to get stronger and more developed physically. Marshall was monstered by Meek last night just because of his size and strength. Keeler & Sharman likewise get moved off the ball far too easily. But its an issue right across our group they are simply not big or strong enough to compete in most contested situations.

In the end it was our kicking efficiency that killed us it was deplorable. I think the commentators said we finished with 56% and the Hawks 73%. You only had to watch the quality of their kicks inside F50 to ours it was night and day. Having said that our forwards simply need to kick the goals when they get the chances the misses from Sharman, Higgins and Wood were unforgivable.

Our lack of contested marking right across the ground is also telling, I dont know where we are rated comp wise but apart from a few we are a really poor contested marking team. Its something our recruiters need address moving forward.

There were plenty of positives and our future is looking bright considering the above we only lost by 20 points:

1. Wanganeen-Milera is a star but still has areas he can improve.
2. Hall is our best MSD selection and easily our best forward 50 kick and decision maker.
3. Tauru's upside is scary, I do worry about his welfare running back with the flight constantly.
4. Garcia did a great job on Newcombe, but why did he sit on the pine as long as he did.
5. Hastie's second half wiped his first half blunders. He is going to be a player.
6. Windhager move to the wing has been a win, he still needs to work on his delivery but the things he does well far out weigh the occasional dodgy kick.


Must do better:

1. Keeler will learn a lot from being embarrassed in that game, but its time we try another option at full forward Heath or Dodson can surely at least offer a contest.
2. Hunter Clark

11

Hunter Clark

Age

26

Ht

186cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.5

4star

K

9.5

4star

HB

8.0

5star

M

3.6

4star

T

2.9

4star

CL

1.3

3star

D

16.0

4star

K

9.6

4star

HB

6.4

4star

M

3.1

3star

T

2.9

4star

CL

1.9

4star

D

13.2

4star

K

6.6

3star

HB

6.6

4star

M

2.2

3star

T

2.0

4star

CL

0.0

1star

had a mare playing midfield he must have gave away a game high free kicks. He was ok when moved into HBF but his lack of speed/run gets exposed everywhere. He is not going to improve his physique or running at this stage of his career. For me we have to move past guys like Hunter.
3. Its official Brad Hill is the worst tackler in the competition and when he is not hitting his kicks, he bring little to the side.
4. Wilson had another poor night, but he actually looked better when he went into defence. Perhaps thats the move to get him to work his way out the form slump.
5. With us giving the ball so much to Nas, I think we are blunting Sinclairs game positives. Sinclair is our a great kick delivering the ball into the F50 we need to find a balance.
6. Our forward line is rubbish and we need to find other tall marking options.

 

[Sainter1873]

Easy to get disappointed about the performance because we could’ve won that had we kicked better. But that’s exactly the issue…we can’t. Our players aren’t good enough. On the odd day we can, but we can’t do it consistently in a match and not across a season. It’ll always hold us back. Kicking and composure, or decision making under pressure. It’s all the same. And it’s what we don’t have enough of.

The reality is we’re a team reliant on pressure at the contest and weight of numbers. I can’t remember a time when we weren’t (maybe 2020). To become a team good enough to dominate an opponent by controlling the ball and space you need skilful, quick, composed players. And they preferably play on ball. We’ve got about three on the whole list and only one looks to be a mid. Sinclair, Hall and NWM. Phillipou is hopefully another, time will tell.

Sad fact is we’ll probably lose NWM. If that happens, we’re taking a big step back. It’ll be a big blow. Yes we can use the picks to reinvest in the draft, but that takes time.

There are players already on our list who we’ll need if we’re ever in a position to seriously compete. Problem is some of them are past 30 and the young ones will take a lot of time.

Our list concerns me. After rebuilding for over a decade, we’re only now seriously stockpiling top end drafted talent. We hope that they all make it but there are no guarantees. Pity that we might lose the best one we’ve drafted in a long, long time.

Apologies for the pessimism, but until we address our midfield and the lack of skill on our list we’re not going anywhere.

 

[g_TRAIN]

Something seems to have changed in our forward half over the last six or seven weeks. Sharman, Owens and Higgo are much more stationary, playing from behind and seem to be covering less ground in the forward half- Sharman looks to be instructed to stay close to goals and not to fly for big marks, and you can see the indecision amongst these guys.

Not too sure what Lyon and his forward coach are up to, but it's not working- the forward half seems disconnected with the rest of the team, should be more mobile, work harder to make distance between themselves and the opposition, take more risks and play higher up the ground.

The change has been that we’re not holding our depth and shape. At times we’re leaving just 3–4 forwards inside 50, and sometimes quite shallow.

We’ve pushed our forwards, especially the half-forwards, higher up the ground (which is partly why we're seeing Hall far more involved). The idea is to get extra numbers around the ball and apply more pressure at the contest, an area where we’d been getting beaten.

But it’s really just robbing Peter to pay Paul. Personally, I’d rather we didn’t try to paper over the midfield cracks this way and instead kept a more traditional, balanced structure.

But also I did mention before we're actually out performing our ladder position in offence 10th vs 15th so we're actually good compared to teams around us on the ladder.

 

[BrutThough]

Your first point is more to the fact we have drafted poorly over 20 years.

Your second point is factually incorrect and we can easily refer to Twomey. There will be half that top 10 taken via academies at this point aswell as the eagles getting band 1 compo.

We are level on points with Melbourne and a game behind Essendon. We play both and North + Richmond.

Beating those sides doesn’t tell us anything we don’t know. But it can impact our future by allowing them all to have better access to talent than we do.

West coast
West coast
Richmond
Richmond
Essendon
Essendon
Us

Throw in Uwland Annable Patterson & King before our pick and we are at pick 11.

Those 2 spots could be the difference again between a midfielder we need and a half back

Those two spots could also mean absolutely nothing. We have no idea. It's just guesswork.

Pushing this narrative that winning a few games is going to hurt our future is just a trolling attempt at this point.

 

[Yawkey way]

I was flabbergasted we didn’t participate in the msd. That Archie dude Essendon picked up from wa is just what we needed.

Played in Richmond’s VFl team against sandy last year and he certainly had some eye catching moments but didn’t do too much.

I was interested enough to look up his local club and history. All I can say is he looked promising then and he still does but Richmond had him under their nose with a host of picks and list spots yet still passed on him. Anyway good luck to him, he may join a pretty large contingent of players no one wanted who went on to become very good afl players.

I’m pretty happy we keep our powder dry, we’ve had a lot of turnover and list spots will be getting tighter.

 

[beside the seaside]

Those two spots could also mean absolutely nothing. We have no idea. It's just guesswork.

Pushing this narrative that winning a few games is going to hurt our future is just a trolling attempt at this point.

It feels like the group could really use a few wins. At this point I'd like to see us get some good vibes going into next year. Time and time again we see that the higher pick guarantees nothing. If we lose to North and Tigers on the run home it will hurt.

 

[g_TRAIN]

I cant believe people are keen to trade out Marshall when we cant win a contested mark or even bring the ball to the ground in our forward line. The guy is a heart and sole player who hardly misses a game and with King being such an enigma, I think we would be mad to even consider trading him. Even with King playing Marshall could play the CHF role getting up and down the wings well.

I have said it for the years that as a collective group we need to get stronger and more developed physically. Marshall was monstered by Meek last night just because of his size and strength. Keeler & Sharman likewise get moved off the ball far too easily. But its an issue right across our group they are simply not big or strong enough to compete in most contested situations.

In the end it was our kicking efficiency that killed us it was deplorable. I think the commentators said we finished with 56% and the Hawks 73%. You only had to watch the quality of their kicks inside F50 to ours it was night and day. Having said that our forwards simply need to kick the goals when they get the chances the misses from Sharman, Higgins and Wood were unforgivable.

Our lack of contested marking right across the ground is also telling, I dont know where we are rated comp wise but apart from a few we are a really poor contested marking team. Its something our recruiters need address moving forward.

There were plenty of positives and our future is looking bright considering the above we only lost by 20 points:

1. Wanganeen-Milera is a star but still has areas he can improve.
2. Hall is our best MSD selection and easily our best forward 50 kick and decision maker.
3. Tauru's upside is scary, I do worry about his welfare running back with the flight constantly.
4. Garcia did a great job on Newcombe, but why did he sit on the pine as long as he did.
5. Hastie's second half wiped his first half blunders. He is going to be a player.
6. Windhager move to the wing has been a win, he still needs to work on his delivery but the things he does well far out weigh the occasional dodgy kick.


Must do better:

1. Keeler will learn a lot from being embarrassed in that game, but its time we try another option at full forward Heath or Dodson can surely at least offer a contest.
2. Hunter Clark had a mare playing midfield he must have gave away a game high free kicks. He was ok when moved into HBF but his lack of speed/run gets exposed everywhere. He is not going to improve his physique or running at this stage of his career. For me we have to move past guys like Hunter.
3. Its official Brad Hill is the worst tackler in the competition and when he is not hitting his kicks, he bring little to the side.
4. Wilson had another poor night, but he actually looked better when he went into defence. Perhaps thats the move to get him to work his way out the form slump.
5. With us giving the ball so much to Nas, I think we are blunting Sinclairs game positives. Sinclair is our a great kick delivering the ball into the F50 we need to find a balance.
6. Our forward line is rubbish and we need to find other tall marking options.

You're 1000% right on the contested marking stuff.

Been a huge weakness this season and a really telling one. Ross has mentioned it in I think about 50% of his press conferences too.

We need King back sorely and quick development of our other KPP

 

[70s sainter]

I wonder how many times when Nas has called for the ball from a player setting up for a set shot, he's actually put it through the sticks.

Good question- would love to know . Remember 1 at Norwood but he also missed 1 there . Every pro footballer should know their exact set shot routine and distance . Baffles me how they change it around eg higgins

 

[beside the seaside]

Funny little thing from the press conference is Ross mentioning how good Sicily and Barrass are but not mentioning Battle.

 

[SaintWrld]

Funny what a week in footy can do haha. Last week everyone wanted Keeler in for the rest of the year no matter what, one poor game and they want him wearing zebras stripes for the rest of the year. Recency bias at its best.

Watched the press conference and Ross kind of stuck up for Keeler a bit. Acknowledged it wouldn’t be easy for a 10 gamer coming up against an experienced due as good as barrass and sicily, and then conceded that he sacrificed his own game to stop barrass influence which worked, he only had 1 intercept in the second half.
So Keeler was essentially used as a decoy.

 

[akaifu]

View attachment 2360778
This is how terrible our forward structure is. Steele has the ball 65 metres out and all our forwards are running towards goal, not one player leading to ball.

You know who would? Max King

 

[BrutThough]

It feels like the group could really use a few wins. At this point I'd like to see us get some good vibes going into next year. Time and time again we see that the higher pick guarantees nothing. If we lose to North and Tigers on the run home it will hurt.

Good vibes not for just the current group but for any potential recruits, for membership, for sponsorship, for next years fixture time slots etc.

 

[From 45]

The change has been that we’re not holding our depth and shape. At times we’re leaving just 3–4 forwards inside 50, and sometimes quite shallow.

We’ve pushed our forwards, especially the half-forwards, higher up the ground (which is partly why we're seeing Hall far more involved). The idea is to get extra numbers around the ball and apply more pressure at the contest, an area where we’d been getting beaten.

But it’s really just robbing Peter to pay Paul. Personally, I’d rather we didn’t try to paper over the midfield cracks this way and instead kept a more traditional, balanced structure.

But also I did mention before we're actually out performing our ladder position in offence 10th vs 15th so we're actually good compared to teams around us on the ladder.

Every team in the competition pushes the forwards within 10-15m of the stoppages. We’re not doing anything different. We simply can’t execute our skills and our poor decision making is what cost us our win- which has been said numerous times

 

[Desperate saint]

Don’t you see the problem here?
No more honourable loses?
But…

You want Webster, Hill and Butler out?
These guys make us competitive.
I’m not saying good or bad,. But just making a comment on win/loss percentages.
We go back the well, or we don’t.
Honourable losses are bacause other these guys.

Never want to see Butler in a saints jumper again-lowe footy IQ always tries to do too much a gets caught gave another 50 away that resulted in a goal

 

[BrutThough]

Funny what a week in footy can do haha. Last week everyone wanted Keeler in for the rest of the year no matter what, one poor game and they want him wearing zebras stripes for the rest of the year. Recency bias at its best.

Watched the press conference and Ross kind of stuck up for Keeler a bit. Acknowledged it wouldn’t be easy for a 10 gamer coming up against an experienced due as good as barrass and sicily, and then conceded that he sacrificed his own game to stop barrass influence which worked, he only had 1 intercept in the second half.
So Keeler was essentially used as a decoy.

I'd argue it's not 1 poor game. Outside of Alice Springs, he's struggled to make an impact in games and gets too easily beaten.

The mids and half back types who have put up similar form lines have all gone back to Sandy. Time for Keeler to do the same and give someone else a try.

 

[akaifu]

I'd argue it's not 1 poor game. Outside of Alice Springs, he's struggled to make an impact in games and gets too easily beaten.

The mids and half back types who have put up similar form lines have all gone back to Sandy. Time for Keeler to do the same and give someone else a try.

Well lets hope Heath earns it today. Otherwise we have no other option than to keep Keeler in

 

[jimmytigs]

ok first off i wasnt too disappointed,to me our issues are easily identifiable and fixable,unlike carltons

observation one=we are tanking,otherwise we are the stupidest dumbest team in the history of the afl,reason=why oh why does every player that has the ball within 50 40 30 meters of goal pass to a 1 v 1?can our players only kick 30 meters?windhager the worst culprit

hastie=absolute shocker of a first half,i hadnt seen a great deal of him before,often a sub,often at sandy,but my goodness,he came out after half time and totally turned it around,thanks ginnivan(dh)

butler=fxxx off,seriously,this guy only plays for himself and a highlight reel,2nd half he was pretty much un noticed,he wasnt subbed out,as jimmy was,im over him well and truly,he cant stick a tackle,he cant take a mark,because he doesnt want to,carlton need small forwards,lets see if we can hoodwink them with this guy=fxxx off

macrae has sort of regressed to a good solid player,which is ok,steele has improved to about the same level,like both of them,but going forward if we can turn steele into aleer lets do it,aleer has upside(maybe),steele doesnt

naz=superstar,but at times seems to believe his own press,gets caught at times,maybe some talk from team mates would help

clark=60-70% game time means you need to be perfect when on ground,he screwed up in first half quite a bit,like hastie he really redeemed himself,but come on hunter,60-70% tog surely means 95% plus efficiency and not getting caught

keeler=promising but lift

wilson=lift

henry=7 games to show he is worth keeping,hardly a factor,how is his knee?

tauru=wow

wood/hill=struggling

garcia=held his own against newcombe,love what im seeing

sincs=down a bit

hall=magnificent

sharman=lift,under 10 possies,you need to convert all chances

wilkie=saw him beaten twice,he is excused

please tell me though that we are tanking,i can accept that,but dont tell me that it is team policy to pass to a one on one when a player is 35/40/45 meters out from goal?because we do that time after time after time and nearly always there is no st.kilda mark at the end of it,also please explain our players being caught in tackles so often=clark/butler/higgins=get rid of the fxxxen thing

 

[saintbill]

Kingy said it in the post game, Max King plays and we win. It’s not that far away.

I think a lot of people have forgotten how Max King plays. He certainly isn't a messiah.

Both Kings are absolute statues. Having King gives us a contest with the long kick in, but he certainly won't improve our ball movement.

 

[Yawkey way]

Those two spots could also mean absolutely nothing. We have no idea. It's just guesswork.

Pushing this narrative that winning a few games is going to hurt our future is just a trolling attempt at this point.

With no relegation in the afl and the season over in terms of playing finals what should our priorities be ?.

Surely it’s to prepare for next season, the upcoming draft is very much a part of that. Each to their own but personally I’m over meaningless wins, I want to contend for flags not feel comforted by claiming oh we won 9.

NFL, NBA, MLB all have drafts and just about every team shuts down the season when finals/playoffs are out. They do it for a variety of reasons one of which is draft position.

As for the often cited belief that it makes it harder to attract players, maybe but how’s that working out for us at present. So well that we need to pay $1.7 million to get TDK over the line. I think selling a team on the rise with exciting young players would trump a few extra wins. I’m pretty sure players and their agents are well aware of oppositions lists and the where they see them heading.

Also we haven’t been tankers so I don’t think a transitional late season youth focus will have any impact on the teams culture.

 

[Desperate saint]

Or even dropped Sharman back to get some confidence up. Tauru goes forward.

Sharman used to be a beautiful powerful accurate Kick for goal-now he does these dinky little half kicks that go nowhere

 

[projectv]

Happy for Buts to have another year as long as he understands that he probably wont be best 22 next year (assuming Lance pulls his finger out)

Good leader. Good guy to have at the club on cheap money

Give him a role like Tom Campbell last year where he plays 1-2 games and is an off-field leader that's fine.

But he's surplus to requirements on field.

 

[g_TRAIN]

Every team in the competition pushes the forwards within 10-15m of the stoppages. We’re not doing anything different. We simply can’t execute our skills and our poor decision making is what cost us our win- which has been said numerous times

You're right but were doing it more than before.

A noticeable shift since the first Freo game.

 

[stavro#4]

Those two spots could also mean absolutely nothing. We have no idea. It's just guesswork.

Pushing this narrative that winning a few games is going to hurt our future is just a trolling attempt at this point.

It’s hardly a trolling attempt.

I’m not going to argue with you back and forward at this point. Those few wins last year have shown little this year in terms of development. If we play a bunch of kids in the final 5 weeks and happen to beat Richmond north etc then I’d say it would mean a lot more to their development then rolling out Webster hill Marshall wood etc and beating them.

At this point you need to measure what success looks like. Winning a handful of games that impacts the quality of kid you can draft or the position of said talent is something you need to be mindful of.

You see it otherwise and that’s fine.

 

[akaifu]

I think a lot of people have forgotten how Max King plays. He certainly isn't a messiah.

Both Kings are absolute statues. Having King gives us a contest with the long kick in, but he certainly won't improve our ball movement.

It's not just the impact of King. It's also the flow on effect

Instead of Barrass intercepting everything on Keeler, King would get double teamed which frees up Sharman which then frees up Owens which then frees up Higgins. It also means Wood stays on a wing and supports our defence, which likely prevents Gunston and Chol from combining for 5 goals