Test Frank Worrell Trophy Third Test (D/N) West Indies v Australia July 12-16 0400hrs 13/7 @ Sabina Park, Jamaica

[Guardian Hawk]

I had trained well during the week in slips practice.
I actually could catch, just not on that day. To be fair, only one dropped catch was a sitter but still ... four.


Yes, very odd. I was about 24 and too dumb to ask to be moved.

It gets weirder. I was promoted to B-Grade (as a bowler) 5 games later and 3 games into the next season I was playing A1 Turf.

You're obviously (or were) a very good cricketer.

We've all had at least one bad day in the slips and picking you as a bowler and not letting you bowl (first game or not) is frankly ridiculous.

 

[Millky95]

Mitchell Johnson in the 13/14 Ashes is as good as I've ever seen.

Johnson also backed it up in the following series in South Africa. 3 tests, 22 wickets at 17. Steyn next highest with 12. Easily the best 8 game stretch of a fast bowler I have ever witnessed. 8 tests, 59 wickets at 15.5 with an economy of less than 3 for a strike bowler is freakish

 

[the_interloper]

Maybe it's time to sack Lyon, play Boland and let Webster bowl offspin.

I'm not sure how much longer Hazlewood will be in the side, has been injury prone at times, 34 is pretty old for a quick. Maybe in a horses for courses situation but generally I'd be picking Lyon. That is why having an all rounder is crucial though, it does give you options.

 

[the_interloper]

You're obviously (or were) a very good cricketer.

We've all had at least one bad day in the slips and picking you as a bowler and not letting you bowl (first game or not) is frankly ridiculous.

I remember playing C Grade and they put me in the slips, spilt one straight away, back to mid on ha ha.

Only ever took one slips catch, was at third, last ball of the day, walked off the field doing the Ric Flair strut pretty much!

 

[Gethelred]

Meh. He's a freak talent. I've never seen an Aussie who can genuinely make the top 6 and be more than a change up with the ball.

Shane Watson?

That's what he's capable of. What's gained by having someone like that trumps a top 6 batsman averaging a few more - which is what you're advocating for.

That's the problem, though: it's not just a few more, but closer to 10 runs an innings than it is 5. Ideally, he averages 45+, but I'll settle in this era of low averages for him averaging less.

For me, it comes down entirely to what gets him to perform at his primary skill, and he's supposted to bat in the top 6.

You're going to use a 5th bowler and in recent times we're going to take a hit on our 6th batsman to pick someone who can bowl at a high enough level to not cause a big drop in pressure.

Head goes a good deal better than just a chopout bowler, and we've been loathe to use Lyon over the past few years.

Marnus's meds aren't the worst thing ever seen, either.

Webster has made a great start, but banking on him remaining a top 6 batsman in the country isn't a great bet.

And banking on someone who - right now - gets caught playing to balls he shouldn't and knicking off as well as getting bowled by balls he left to be one of the top 6 bats in the country whilst using half his ****ing training time on bowling is a surefire bet?

Look, you're welcome to disagree. I just don't see the point in making what we already do to an excellent standard better at the expense of making a weakness more vulnerable.

 

[Gethelred]

I remember playing C Grade and they put me in the slips, spilt one straight away, back to mid on ha ha.

Only ever took one slips catch, was at third, last ball of the day, walked off the field doing the Ric Flair strut pretty much!

I had a really good year joining a new club and playing twos in the slips, including two late cuts off a spinner I'm still proud of.

I'm hopeless behind the stumps at the best of times.

 

[Soggy2112]

What?

He’s had 4 matches at 3 and averages 23 or so. 6 hits at 4 which is inflated by 174 not against NZ and the rest at 6 or 7 wher he averages about his Test average.

If that’s your basis, it’s pretty flimsy. I would hardly call that more success.

This would be one of those cases where average doesn’t tell the full story.

I’m also referring to his Shield numbers at 4 where he outperformed any of his peers by a considerable margin.

 

[Soggy2112]

Shane Watson?

That's the problem, though: it's not just a few more, but closer to 10 runs an innings than it is 5. Ideally, he averages 45+, but I'll settle in this era of low averages for him averaging less.

For me, it comes down entirely to what gets him to perform at his primary skill, and he's supposted to bat in the top 6.

Head goes a good deal better than just a chopout bowler, and we've been loathe to use Lyon over the past few years.

Marnus's meds aren't the worst thing ever seen, either.

And banking on someone who - right now - gets caught playing to balls he shouldn't and knicking off as well as getting bowled by balls he left to be one of the top 6 bats in the country whilst using half his ****ing training time on bowling is a surefire bet?

Look, you're welcome to disagree. I just don't see the point in making what we already do to an excellent standard better at the expense of making a weakness more vulnerable.

When Green was playing regular shield cricket he was comfortably the best bat in the competition. People forget that. He is currently averaging in the mid-30s which is not amazing, but in this era of bowler friendly pitches is certainly not terrible, particularly when you consider that he is improving and has loads of upside. Before he got injured he seemed to have started to hit his stride, and since he’s come back he’s just taking a little while to find his feet again, however has ended up making some really valuable contributions this series.

 

[Gethelred]

When Green was playing regular shield cricket he was comfortably the best bat in the competition. People forget that. He is currently averaging in the mid-30s which is not amazing, but in this era of bowler friendly pitches is certainly not terrible, particularly when you consider that he is improving and has loads of upside. Before he got injured he seemed to have started to hit his stride, and since he’s come back he’s just taking a little while to find his feet again, however has ended up making some really valuable contributions this series.

At no point am I disagreeing with any of this. What I am saying is that right now, he's vulnerable - especially early, but throughout an innings - to going out to balls of a good length to slightly fuller on and outside off - regardless of movement in the air or off the pitch - and that this can be worked on and improved and should be improved first before worrying about his bowling.

Right now - the next two years - we do not need to worry about his bowling. Get him into as close to the final product with the bat as we can get, and then worry about adding him as a fifth or sixth seamer.

 

[HitTheNailOnTheHead]

Mate the day he takes 10 wickets with the red ball is when he goes back to play a 7th XI club game.

You know he's taken 10 wickets in a test match twice now don't you? Same as Cummins.

 

[DaRick]

Yeah I thought Starc was going to be a bit like a quicker Bracken, great at the short form but struggles to penetrate at Test level. Glad to have been proven wrong, you're right about him becoming way more consistent. It used to be when he was on look out otherwise he might get slapped, the stinkers have become more and more rare.

Bracken had the exact opposite problem - very accurate and could be wily, but he simply wasn't quick enough, especially on 2000s AUS decks.

I thought Starc could be Akram-lite - he definitely had the swing and the pace, but nothing like the consistency. I began to have serious doubts some years into his career, when he hadn't really kicked on despite showing some promise, but he turned things around.

 

[DaRick]

Starc is so much better than Anderson

They're not all that comparable.

 

[eddiesmith]

I used to be critical of his erratic nature but cannot deny him now as a great Australian bowler.
Even if we split his stats as you have done there's nothing wrong with a S/R of 51. Michael Holding is 50.9 and Mitchell Johnson 51.1

His overall S/R has only 12 bowlers in the history of the game (min 100 wickets) striking at a better rate.

As an aside 0.67 is all that separates Anderson and Starc for bowling averages.

Yeah and how highly do Australians rate James Anderson, especially outside of England?

But with the red ball it’s 26.8 for Anderson v 29.5 for Starc

 

[Gough]

I'm glad to have seen both of them.

 

[beatnik]

They're not all that comparable.

True, mainly because Starc is taller, faster and better

 

[grumbleguts]

Mitchell Johnson in the 13/14 Ashes is as good as I've ever seen.

Agreed. Caused Piers Morgan to have a conniption.

 

[Westend]

At no point am I disagreeing with any of this. What I am saying is that right now, he's vulnerable - especially early, but throughout an innings - to going out to balls of a good length to slightly fuller on and outside off - regardless of movement in the air or off the pitch - and that this can be worked on and improved and should be improved first before worrying about his bowling.

Right now - the next two years - we do not need to worry about his bowling. Get him into as close to the final product with the bat as we can get, and then worry about adding him as a fifth or sixth seamer.

Well why get the surgery done and miss 12 months of cricket?? Like it or not greenie will be backing bowling come the summer

 

[DaRick]

Yeah you pasted the cricinfo table into excel

Jul-51 ffs

And he forgot to format the table.

Maybe it's time to sack Lyon, play Boland and let Webster bowl offspin.

If they're gonna sack Lyon, it'd be for Murphy/Kuhnemann/Rocchiccioli.

Four quicks just aren't sustainable nowadays, even accounting for more bowler-friendly pitches. Over rates will always be a problem, and Lyon's ability to utilise overspin and sidespin while being pretty accurate means that he'll contribute something most of the time.

The only concern that I have is that he's been a bit inconsistent since his calf injury. He's had matches where he hasn't quite gotten his line and length right.

 

[DaRick]

Well why get the surgery done and miss 12 months of cricket?? Like it or not greenie will be backing bowling come the summer

It'd be a shame if he stopped bowling completely, because he's a very good fifth bowler.

Swings the ball consistently, gets sharp bounce and is reasonably pacy.

More likely him and Webster will alternate.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

If they're gonna sack Lyon, it'd be for Murphy/Kuhnemann/Rocchiccioli.

Four quicks just aren't sustainable nowadays, even accounting for more bowler-friendly pitches. Over rates will always be a problem, and Lyon's ability to utilise overspin and sidespin while being pretty accurate means that he'll contribute something most of the time.

The only concern that I have is that he's been a bit inconsistent since his calf injury. He's had matches where he hasn't quite gotten his line and length right.

They aren't sacking Lyon.
He's the 3rd highest wicket taker for 2025 so far, with a better than career average as well.

 

[DaRick]

They aren't sacking Lyon.
He's the 3rd highest wicket taker for 2025 so far, with a better than career average as well.

I was speculating.

I know they're not sacking him.

More than likely, he gets to go out on his own terms. Even a sacking will be disguised as a retirement to save face (e.g. Ponting).

 

[Soggy2112]

Yeah I thought Starc was going to be a bit like a quicker Bracken, great at the short form but struggles to penetrate at Test level. Glad to have been proven wrong, you're right about him becoming way more consistent. It used to be when he was on look out otherwise he might get slapped, the stinkers have become more and more rare.

And you're right about Hazlewood, I'm sure they don't play him over Boland just for a laugh, it's a rare combo.

He has become more accurate, but it’s not just that. He has a much more varied skill set now as a bowler than he used to.

Part of the inconsistency he used to have was conditions based. If he couldn’t get the full, swinging deliveries going he could be a bit of a bowling machine for quality players who could handle the pace.

However, he now has so many more ways to get you.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

I was speculating.

I know they're not sacking him.

More than likely, he gets to go out on his own terms. Even a sacking will be disguised as a retirement to save face (e.g. Ponting).

He'll be in the team at the 2027 England tour I suspect. Already on record as wanting one more away Ashes and can't see any current underling outperforming him by enough to make a forced change beforehand.

 

[Gethelred]

Well why get the surgery done and miss 12 months of cricket??

I don't know, I am a) not his doctor and b) not in possession of the advice given to him related to his surgery.

Like it or not greenie will be backing bowling come the summer

... is this a joke?

The point of my post is to say what I think we should do, not what I think they will do. Trying to tell me what they will do is equivalent to answering a question about the weather with the fact that it's good fishing at the moment; it's both irrelevant and a conversation ender.

And if you want to end conversation, a sporting forum is an exceedingly weird place to do it.

 

[sherb]

321 wickets, averages 29.52, strike rate of 51 with red ball.

In India, 53 average and 89 strike rate
In NZ 43 and 63
In UAE 53 and 100
In Pakistan 34 and 77

Funny, only away against West Indies and Sri Lanka does he have ‘elite’ figures

Warne

In India, 43 average and 81 S/R
In West Indies, 39 average and 78 S/R

Dud.