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Autopsy Round 22 = Hawthorn 110-46 Collingwood

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No SPIN said:
Still going on about your discredited video narrative ? Like I said your default setting is to be negative.
What ever floats your boat sport.
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“Discredited”

If you were an AFL player how many strikes you reckon you’d be on?
 
SouthernPie said:
I'm not for one minute saying this is the sole reason for tonight's insipid performance, but I hadn't fully realized this was our 3rd game in 12 days!!! That's a big ask at the end of a long season.
If there has been heavier training loads as well (as was admitted by Fly), then that’s a bit of a **** up really. No wonder we looked like we were playing through treacle.
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From the outside looking in, I think we likely shifted our “heavy training loads” forward this year relative to 2023 because we had the 3 games in 12 days on our horizon. Seems from the training reports we’ve had lighter loads through this period. For mine, the fact we haven’t been able to get any stability in team selection has been a more significant issue. Just seeing confidence and cohesion eroded week to week. On that performance, likely we’ll see another round with a significant number of changes going into next Saturday.
 
LuckyLee said:
Too old, too slow.

This has been coming for quite a few years. We should have started phasing out older players immediately after 2023 Premiership - 2 or 3 each year. Some of them could have earned us some decent draft picks if we hadn’t held onto them too long. Now we’re gonna lose 8-10 of them in next two years and in the meantime be forced to continue to play many of them in the seniors because we haven’t recruited and developed adequate young replacements.

There’s also too much nostalgia clouding decisions. Why did we re-sign Pendles so quickly? He should have been a very late re-signing, subject to form, cap space and ability to contribute on-field in 2026. Who cares if he gets the games record. Boomer Harvey was robbed of another year or two by Brad Scott’s purge of older NM players. Boomer kicked 35 goals in that last season and was still fit and fast.
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Yea we should model our list management on Norths that deliberately cut a perennial finals team to rebuild instead.
 
Cousin of Daicos said:
“Discredited”

If you were an AFL player how many strikes you reckon you’d be on?
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Here’s a prediction - bookmark it.
You’re going to death ride the team from now on and leading up to the finals as you did in 2023.

A leopard doesn’t change it’s spots.

But can you subdue your natural instincts - that’s your challenge.
We’ll wait and see!
 
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No SPIN said:
Here’s a prediction - bookmark it.
You’re going to death ride the team from now on and leading up to the finals as you did in 2023.

A leopard doesn’t change it’s spots.
Click to expand...

Funny you post this prediction when I was about to post about not wanting to give up on the season yet

But we’ve now put ourselves in the dreaded space of needing basically miracle results to go our way as well as now expecting the oldest team in AFL history who currently look physically spent to win 4 finals

But hey, Brisbane won it from 5th last year so who knows
 
satty said:
honestly I hope the players all go away together over the weekend and sort this mess out. Much like how carlton did in 2023 I think, when carlton players had a team only retreat at curnows farm . It sparked a finals run.

Think something very similar is required for this group. Fly's messaging is no longer landing with this group, this is something they need to sort out themselves. we have a 9 day break until we play adelaide, perfect time to just get away from it all and work out just what the hell is happening to them.
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Who’s going to break the news to Curnow that we’re coming?
 
We're losing contest and can't defend the spread anymore.

Because we are getting killed on the spread teams are able to make good decisions going into their F50.

I can't tell if there is a new tactic being used against us OR if we've just fallen away (or both).

Despite our form I was optimistic before tonight. Not so much now, confidence has slipped away and top 4 is gone.
 
unplugged said:
Strange old night. Have had about an hour and a half to calm down knowing we were absolutely no chance.

Firstly, you've got to feel for Howe. Finally comes back and we're a bees dick off a best 23 for Adelaide next week and down he goes within 90 seconds.

Similar effort to last week, although even worse on a 5 say break, we were flat again. Absolutely no pressure put on in the middle, soft half-hearted tackling efforts all over the ground, no aerial presence, the list goes on. Their mids waltzed out of the middle all night and hit up their forwards without any dramas.

And then we got so far behind we had players trying to do too much and it worsened.

I get we had a similar slump in 2023 but nothing like this. We might turn this around but we've seen an over-reliance in sports science this year which has meant resting, loads lessened, loads increased, etc. rather than just cracking in and playing your best team to win each week.

Happy if someone tells me otherwise but now we need to win the next 2 or we miss the top 4.

All in all a very embarrassing night on Steele's 350th. He'd probably rather his 300th where he ****ed his knee and we won.
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I was wondering before tonight’s game and taking out physical and mental presence to replace it all the momentarily with what can be termed as no less than hocus pocus mumbo jumbo. In essence, I was wondering how many “milestone” games for us (probably the league too. But us because I barrack for the Pies) that we’ve lost and or had bad luck.

Pies vs Blues NYE, Sidey’s 300th, Sidey’s 350th, Pies vs Blues Collingwood 125th anniversary game in 2017 etc etc
 
Cousin of Daicos said:
Funny you post this prediction when I was about to post about not wanting to give up on the season yet

But we’ve now put ourselves in the dreaded space of needing basically miracle results to go our way as well as now expecting the oldest team in AFL history who currently look physically spent to win 4 finals

But hey, Brisbane won it from 5th last year so who knows
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Keep up the positivity!!!!
 
PonsfordMagpie said:
I'm too emotional to summarise this game in full, so I'm going to sleep on it first. All I will do is transcribe the post match presser once it's uploaded online.

I saw bits of the presser on TV when I got home. At least Fly looked bitterly disappointed like the rest of us and immediately apologised to the supporter base. I don't think he saw this performance coming.

Fingers crossed Howe is doing okay.
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Yep, just watched it too. He was extremely disappointed & agree he didn't see that coming. Mostly perplexed by our lack of pressure, which was one of our strengths & our poor decision making.

It was the most unlike Pies game I've seen under Fly. Except maybe close to that Hawks game last year when they smashed it.
 

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Fly's presser

I know you're a very positive guy, but that's probably your worst performance for the year in all respects. How concerning is the trajectory that your team is going at the moment?
"Yeah, I apologise to our Magpie Army, that's a disappointing performance, you can't sugarcoat that. We owe Steele Sidebottom way more than that too, like he's a legend of the footy club. We're hurting, that one really hurt. Just a lack of system and then a lack of fight, a lack of effort, sometimes at the same time, which leaves us really vulnerable. Anyone that's watched us over the last few years would say 'they're basically glued together by system and then you have great efforts and then we're okay'. But not tonight".
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Your last six quarters if you go back to the Brisbane match after half time, it's probably since that point it's just gone downhill hasn't it?
"I just deal in this game. Let's just stay here. We just had some really poor efforts at times. The aerial on the goal line [was] just really poor. Look, this is the reality of what we got right now. Like I've always said to our players, nothing is permanent. Nothing's permanent, only if we want to be. We'll be judged on the full term I'd like to think, but right now we got to get our system back in check because it doesn't really matter who plays and you know 'magnet, magnet, magnet, move that part' and you know defence and all the other parts would have glued that back together".
Click to expand...
I know you said you don't look at form from previous weeks, but that system that you spoke about tonight, was that something you knew? Was that something you saw for the first time for a long time tonight?
"I think for a long time, I don't recall us having that poor of connection in the way we move the ball and in the way we defend the ground. Credit to Hawthorn, they were always going to challenge us in major parts of the game. It doesn't matter who you play this time of the year, you're playing top eight teams or more you give them a chance to play to their strengths, you're going to get hurt and we got hurt really bad".
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What impact did losing Howe early have on the team?
"I just don't want to make excuses. It rocked us, it did, it was right in front of us, it rocked us and it rocked some of our staff. I don't want to make excuses, but we hope he's OK, I hope his family's OK too, those things aren't great when you're watching live. Hope you're okay, buddy".
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Is Howe alright? What's the initial prognosis?
"I'm not sure. My understanding he's gone to get scans, but I don't know yet. I can't comment on that".
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For the third time in four weeks now without Jeremy Howe down there, your backline looks disorganised and under the pump. That must be very concerning?
"Yeah, it is. There's three guys flying at the one ball and spoiling at the same time is not system and we've worked on that all pre-season. So there's desperation and then there's desperation like 'I got the ball and I'm going to spoil and I'll be the guy'. [There's] no method in that and Darcy Cameron, poor Darcy Cameron [is] sitting under the ball and everyone's letting a man fly and take a mark of the year on his head. That's not system, so those things we can fix. The effort stuff is, I'd like to think that's an anomaly. That hasn't been there for us in that regard for...I can't remember when we had maybe Round 0 when we're old and slow, yeah?
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Why did Nick Daicos start on the bench?
"Because everyone starts on the bench in our team and no one's bigger than the individual. He's one of our leaders and it's just subtle. It's nothing major at all as everyone takes a turn. Josh [Daicos] started on the bench last week. I actually think it was a pretty cool thing".
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It looked like Nick Daicos was getting some treatment to his neck. Is there any injury there?
"No, my short medical meeting is that everyone's okay at the moment but we'll have to wait and see".
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The intensity tonight by the Hawks, they really brought the heat early which put you on the back foot particularly with your handball game which has been a feature as that was your strength a number of weeks ago. It now seems to have become a bit of a weakness?
"Yeah, that's fair. We're handballing backwards under pressure which is 'my problem becomes yours, I'll give it to you' type thing. We can pick holes in all of our game really if you want to, we can go through lots of things. It's about finding the things that we can turn around quickly. I said this before the game, if we didn't review anything this is the question I asked the coaches straight away most weeks. If we don't review anything, what's permanent? What's going to be there next week? Now that's the things we have to get to work on".
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Also that contested ball element, which has been a feature but Hawthorn really controlled that game right from the outset.
"Well, mostly on the outside of clearance. We lost post clearance say post contested ball by 20 odd I think".
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Collingwood only had 42 tackles for the game in a game where you went down by 64 points?
"Well that comes with the effort thing. You're 114,000 members, you expect a certain amount of effort, and we didn't have it. So you get disappointed with that and our tackle pressures, but again that's because we get bodies in the wrong position and then we don't move the ball inside 50 well and don't connect, and there's more than just one layer to pressure, but that's certainly something we'll dial into. When you put that jumper on there's an expectation that we represent it better than what we did tonight".
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You obviously leaked a lot of marks inside 50. I think it was 18 [tonight] and you're obviously up against probably the most ominous forward line next week without Jeremy Howe. Are you confident the backline can turn things around?
"Well the game for me was really high transition. It's a danger game against the Hawks if you want to play that for 120 odd minutes. We didn't connect. One thing I'll say is when we get behind, we want to chase. Six goals is not enough for me for our fans to watch at home. I don't know how many kept watching right through the end. We'd like to fight until the end, so they never turn it off. I think that's historic. Tonight they might have turned it off a bit early, which disappoints us. But you know, that's a high transition game [and] we had a short turnaround. Those things will challenge you".
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Do you really embrace that Adelaide challenge next week?
"Oh yeah, we have to don't we? Judge us on the full term and judge us on our response. That will create a headline, but yeah bring it on. We've got to turn up, not just because we're going to Adelaide and who we play, but it's just because that's what we want to do. We want to be a team that turns up every week. Nothing's permanent. Nothing's permanent and I never believed in form and I never believed in confidence because my next action will be the one that decides if I'm confident or form wise. So, we coach that hard but we got to glue our system back together and we got a full week to do that. 19 or 20 100-game players, they know how to play their role so we got to glue them back together quickly".
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How do you explain the loss of confidence and form?
"Confidence is an outcome. Form's an outcome. We live in process. You judge us on outcomes. We judge ourselves on process. So you come to a stoppage and you're out of position we go 'hey, come on, what are you doing in that position?' So you start to think more than do and then we have systems in place where we go 'hey, you're out of position, hey come over here mate, I need you there'. So when you go quiet, you go internal. So we do process. So we come back to minutes and seconds. So we lost a few minutes and seconds tonight, but we're going to stay present to that. When you start to think outcome and expectation, then you're not doing, you're thinking. We want them to play, so we're confident we can turn those things around".
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You think the players are drifting into 'outcome'?
"No doubt. You can see it and I call it out when I see it. No doubt, so we got to live in process and we have and we're going to get better every day. We turn up on Monday this week with a big smile on our face and let's get better as we have done for a number of years now".
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How much is that the system you talk about and how much of that does it relate to all those many unforced errors made by your players. Are they linked in a way?
"I start to ask the same question. You see some incredibly experienced guys making unforeseen skill errors, but then again I think they're overthinking potentially at times so we got to get out of their way and allow them to flow. Decisions can be made, like if I got the ball in hand and this ground doesn't look like 'who am I going to kick it to?' then you second guess yourself too. But then not giving enough credit to Hawthorn either with their pressure and the way they play the game. This is a tough game to play. We got to back our system in. It served us well and under pressure and under adversity, go back to what you know and go do your job and it's up to me to glue them together and our coaches to glue them together. Take responsibility for what we did tonight".
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You said you're getting 'internal' and you're getting to your head, so what can you do to change that mindset within a week?
"So easy. If you're quiet, [then] talk. That's like 15 years of doing development. Players tell me when they're out of form and out of confidence. I go 'well, what do you do when you have confidence and have form?' Just do that. 'Well, I'm quiet when I got no confidence. Well, be loud!'. 'I don't go for my marks, well, go for your marks!'. 'I tackle when I've got confidence, well tackle!" It's their actions, not thoughts. It's right in front of us. Right in front of us".
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Do you remain supremely confident of what this season can achieve for this team?
"Yeah, I do, because we got trust but again we'll be judged on the full length of that. We won't live in outcome, we're going to live in process. Minute by minute and there's still lots of minutes left as far as I'm aware and we'll make the most of those".
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www.afl.com.au

'I apologise to our Magpie Army, that's a disappointing performance': McRae

Watch Collingwood’s press conference after round 22’s match against Hawthorn
www.afl.com.au www.afl.com.au
 
Jeez that was tough viewing. Not sure how to put a positive spin on that. Expected a resonse and it just didnt come.
 
turned it off halfway through the third quarter. That wasn’t worth losing sleep and struggling with a migraine on a work day for.

Annoyingly my cat woke me even earlier than needed, hacking up a hairball. Probably made him sick to watch our putrid performance last night too.

Anyway the has started about matching my mood now.
 

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1. Reading Fly's presser. I never thought I'd understand fully what he's thinking but his presser comments were spot on and I couldn't agree more. He's honest there but also still being a leader. Mentioning process over outcome and how things break down when outcome trumps process... that is pure management and strategy talking.

So many players started playing for pride rather than trusting the process.

2. Is it time to panic? The Pies have won 15 games and a percentage of over 120. Usually this is enough to secure top 4 or even 5. Not this year. Just a really competitive season and anyone of the top 8 can beat each other on any given night on a coin toss especially come finals intensity.

Coaches and team managers look up ahead of schedule and look for strategic movements or opportunities. I think the Fremantle loss was definitely unplanned. I think the Lions game last week Pies would have written that as a 50/50 game, as in no matter how good they played it isn't guaranteed. Tonight I think the team panicked, as in the players on the ground panicked and hence why they started playing for outcome rather than sticking to the process or strategy.

3. My 2 cents. I think Fly and the coaching staff have been training the team at super high loading since securing the 15 wins. The oldies look tired and exhausted. Even the younger ones look sore or missing the quick twitch reaction or power in their tackling.
I think the coaching staff started to play for Finals. Meaning they will ease up on training during Finals month to keep fresh for the games themselves so they build tank in July and August. But the schedule is just awful for the Pies going up against their potential Finals opponents. There is strategy in not playing your best plan against your rivals and saving it as a surprise attack... it is not a conspiracy it's absolutely strategic.

4. The Adelaide game now becomes more important than it should have been. If Adelaide is playing for pride then they expose themselves early by trying their best plan to put Collingwood to the sword, but it also means teams get to see and study it. Really not sure how Adelaide will take it next game. Fly would either ease of training and have a real crack against Adelaide or stick to his plan and hope it works. But every game is consequential.... just very unideal after securing 15 wins really.... a very competitive season indeed.


5. Is it time to panic? For ladder position... sure.
For finals? No... not really. Finals is a different beast. Just watch Swans, Demons, Carlton of the passed 2 years. You can't bring the same plan from Home and Away season to September and hope it's good enough.
I think Pies are indeed training amd preparing for September and just super unfortunate to have a schedule that has so much consequence because of how good the contest is.

And Fly alluded to this in his presser saying that he hopes the media and fans look at it at a overall performance rather than game by game or phase of the schedule. I think he does have a strategy come finals.

So I don't think it's time to panic. It's more like, let the finals begin just very unfortunate that Pies may have to travel. But sliding down the ladder may lead to matchup against other Victorian teams meaning no travel for finals. Finishing 3rd, 4th may not be ideal if they can't finish top 2 because it means travel.

Lions won last year from 5th spot because they played at home first week... then only had to travel to GWS stadium where it's a much closer to home than going to Victoria. It matters.
 
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obvious now that fly has lost the group..
it was every man for himself out there…
Players were so uncharacteristically crap, it’s hard to fathom they follow flys instructions and systems
 
upnsmoke said:
1. Reading Fly's presser. I never thought I'd understand fully what he's thinking but his presser comments were spot on and I couldn't agree more. He's honest there but also still being a leader. Mentioning process over outcome and how things break down when outcome trumps process... that is pure management and strategy talking.

So many players started playing for pride rather than trusting the process.

2. Is it time to panic? The Pies have won 15 games and a percentage of over 120. Usually this is enough to secure top 4 or even 5. Not this year. Just a really competitive season and anyone of the top 8 can beat each other on any given night on a coin toss especially come finals intensity.

Coaches and team managers look up ahead of schedule and look for strategic movements or opportunities. I think the Fremantle loss was definitely unplanned. I think the Lions game last week Pies would have written that as a 50/50 game, as in no matter how good they played it isn't guaranteed. Tonight I think the team panicked, as in the players on the ground panicked and hence why they started playing for outcome rather than sticking to the process or strategy.

3. My 2 cents. I think Fly and the coaching staff have been training the team at super high loading since securing the 15 wins. The oldies look tired and exhausted. Even the younger ones look sore or missing the quick twitch reaction or power in their tackling.
I think the coaching staff started to play for Finals. Meaning they will ease up on training during Finals month to keep fresh for the games themselves so they build tank in July and August. But the schedule is just awful for the Pies going up against their potential Finals opponents. There is strategy in not playing your best plan against your rivals and saving it as a surprise attack... it is not a conspiracy it's absolutely strategic.

4. The Adelaide game now becomes more important than it should have been. If Adelaide is playing for pride then they expose themselves early by trying their best plan to put Collingwood to the sword, but it also means teams get to see and study it. Really not sure how Adelaide will take it next game. Fly would either ease of training and have a real crack against Adelaide or stick to his plan and hope it works. But every game is consequential.... just very unideal after securing 15 wins really.... a very competitive season indeed.


5. Is it time to panic? For ladder position... sure.
For finals? No... not really. Finals is a different beast. Just watch Swans, Demons, Carlton of the passed 2 years. You can't bring the same plan from Home and Away season to September and hope it's good enough.
I think Pies are indeed training amd preparing for September and just super unfortunate to have a schedule that has so much consequence because of how good the contest is.

And Fly alluded to this in his presser saying that he hopes the media and fans look at it at a overall performance rather than game by game or phase of the schedule. I think he does have a strategy come finals.

So I don't think it's time to panic. It's more like, let the finals begin just very unfortunate that Pies may have to travel. But sliding down the ladder may lead to matchup against other Victorian teams meaning no travel for finals. Finishing 3rd, 4th may not be ideal if they can't finish top 2 because it means travel.

Lions won last year from 5th spot because they played at home first week... then only had to travel to GWS stadium where it's a much closer to home than going to Victoria. It matters.
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Well considered and thoughtful post.
Hopefully it gives some solace and comfort to those who’ve written us off that there is still hope.
 
Cousin of Daicos said:
Darcy Cameron has low key been kinda average for a while now

But you know...."iNtErCePt MaRkS!"

He's looked spent for some time. Probably one of the ones we should have actually rested but didn't.
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He’s the only one I actually thought this with. I said rest him for the game after the bye against st kilda to have 2 weeks to get himself right.

If we are going to give contracts to blokes too old to play without needing to be rested and managed a few times, don’t give them contracts for next year then. This model has not worked.
 
That was horrible. I was hoping we could stay away from the cliff for another year or two, but it's likely come a little early.
We've gone from looking unbeatable to putrid in a Month. Even if Howe comes in, he's likely to only play another year.

Anyway if it has come, it's really time to look at a rebuild.

This is why flags are so hard to win. You really need to time your run.
 
A reminder that Nathan Murphy would be coming into his prime right about now 😭
 

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Autopsy Round 22 = Hawthorn 110-46 Collingwood

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