List Mgmt. 2025 List Management Discussion - Part 3

[Hubnester]

2025 List Management Discussion - Part 3

Now that our season is over, and news is starting to break - it's time for a fresh thread.

This thread is to discuss all things list management - trades, draft, free agency, delistings and more.
As we are now officially in our off-season, we'll be wanting to keep this thread more strictly on-topic than the previous iterations.
Be respectful. You are allowed to disagree with someone - but play the ball, not the man. Repeat offenders will have their posting rights revoked.

Thanks to Lore once again for this incredibly useful spreadsheet.

2025 KEY DATES
Free Agency Period: Friday, October 3rd - Friday, October 10th
Trade Period: Monday, October 6th - Wednesday, October 15th
AFL Draft: Wednesday, November 19th - Thursday, November 20th

See Also:
2025 Year in Review Rumours & Confirmed Movements 2025 Draft Discussion
​

 

[akaifu]

I'm not actually a fan of the financial arms race either. Paying guys like TDK top dollar is insane. Its will come back and bite us too at some point. We'll start losing players and end up paying a lot for not much return. We should be getting creative, the top wages are only for absolute stars like Nas, not topping up.

TDK isn't absolutely proven yet since he hasn't won anything, but there is so much upside with this player given what he's shown when injury-free & played as the primary ruck AND the addition of the new ruck rules that do not favour any player more than TDK. The jumping ruck is coming back, and TDK along with maybe Jackson are the two who could be at the forefront of this generation

If premiership winners like Brisbane are willing to offer up to 850k for Sam Draper - an INJURY PRONE jumping ruckman coming off an achilles injury - then that should highlight how highly clubs are starting to rate these types of players going forward

 

[akaifu]

The hunt for Windhager
Melbourne’s pursuit of Windhager is genuine, but North Melbourne also consider themselves a genuine chance after offering the durable 22-year-old a five-year deal.

The Saints upped their original offer from two to four years recently and are keen to retain him after his good friend Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera re-signed for two years just before the season finished. However, the Demons and Kangaroos’ offers are more attractive.

Melbourne are also reportedly interested in Saints ruckman Max Heath, while they are yet to re-sign Judd McVee, who has interest from other clubs, and free agent and premiership forward Charlie Spargo.

I'd take McVee for Windhager every day of the week thank you very much

 

[Joffaboy]

I love how you take the sarcastic high ground, you werent so righteous when Nas looked like he was leaving.

We are building a club that is hoping to contend, we simply cant afford to lose quality players. Everyone understands the club are interested in bringing in other midfielders, but surely we can get it done without losing a quality kid like Windy.

You reckon Windy equates to NAZ. Really lol.
As funny as Windy is a better winger than Hill.
Sorry if your opinion doesn't change my mind. So ridiculous.

 

[gringo2011]

No one ever said TDK is a bargain

It just makes sense given the context of our list. A young-ish ruckman who was in AA conversations early in the year before copping injuries recruited free of draft capital and we cough up an extra 600k, which was saved when we overpaid our stars the last few years thus they are underpaid now - which they contractually agreed to

He is a potential game-winning superstar who has been compared to Max Gawn. He has also been dubbed by Max Gawn himself as potentially the next #1 ruckman of the competition - he has never said that about anyone else. It is almost the equivalent of a salary dump from our POV. You people that are against signing him are taking the recruitment of a high-profile player for free for granted as if we can just land a different one for free

Windy, on the other hand, is a worker bee. Fills holes in team structure and plays according to the coach. He is NOT a game changer and has NEVER shown an ability to change the side's fortunes to the extent of 800k+/year. He is NOT the type you pay overs for IMO, especially when you have the likes of Boxshall, Hastie, Travaglia, O'Connell and others vying for best 23 spots who have shown that they can play similar roles

And on your point about it potentially being a disaster - we are giving up at most 2x 2nd rounders & maybe a Windy/Marshall for TDK, JSOS, Ryan, Aleer*, Flanders/mid

What is the upside/cost ratio here do you think? Would you prefer the former or the latter combo? Genuine question

If this spending spree does nothing but shake our players out and cause friction while moving sideways, it's been a fail. Windhager is 22 or something. He's only behind Nas for progression year on year and looks ready to go up to another level. The club didn't know Nas was any good apparently until it smacked them in the face.

We haven't landed any of those players except the FAs. I'd say we have undone most of the good will created if we send off homegrown talent for over priced ring ins. I was enjoying not feeling pissed off with the club for a few weeks.

 

[gringo2011]

An athletic ruck that works at ground level is definitely in the 1 mil range at any club.

On output he's at best $800k and that's generous. He's not a top 10 ruck yet.

 

[Joffaboy]

Hill looks absolutely cooked and Windhager looked excellent on the wing late in the year. I'd say he's a better wingman right now.

All season you say what a great runner he is and how he presents options everywhere all game.
Suddenly he is cooked. Windhager is now a better winger than Hill. Ok mate, whatever

 

[MightySaintas]

Windy situ feels like Ben McEvoy

7

Ben Mcevoy

Age

36

Ht

200cm

Wt

101kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.6

3star

K

4.7

2star

HB

6.9

4star

M

4.2

4star

T

3.0

5star

G

0.4

3star

D

8.5

2star

K

3.9

1star

HB

4.6

3star

M

2.8

3star

T

1.8

3star

G

0.4

3star

D

6.0

2star

K

3.0

1star

HB

3.0

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

1.2

3star

G

0.0

1star

all over again...

who's going to captain the club in 2-3 years time?

also aren't we just doing some circle work with the list management. didnt want battle but now we've offered the same contract pretty much to JSOS, just a year older, not as good and less resilient. to help cover that we are looking at aleek at 600-700k. 1.4m will be tied up in aleek and jsos.

we swapped Battle for JSOS and Tarau. That's a good deal and one I'm very happy with

 

[gringo2011]

You always say this, but never a suggestion how. We don't get FS, we have no access to NGA, so we use the only thing available to us, saving SC.
Easy to calculate that we had 5 mill at least to spend over the SC this year, that is not taking into account spend 105% of the cap allowed after any 95% spend or the money paid to Billings and Crouch.

You say be creative. Well they have been, and they are not finished.
Lose players, clubs gain and lose players all the time.
Really I think you just want us to stand still and not do anything. And you are back on to 'topping up', even after you have said we have drafted well and this was not topping up.
Really you map.out a strategy within the confines and limitations the AFL puts on us.

I've given plenty of suggestions of how to build through drafting and then attack FA and chase hole fillers when you get to the right point. We are going early before results come in so now have to overpay to attract guys who aren't fully developed in.

There are plenty of Max Hall and Wilkie types in state leagues. There are plenty of good rucks stuck behind others in the AFL system.

We can't lose players as quickly as we pick them up or we'll never move forward. If our youth don't make massive strides and then commit to stay we'll never go forward.

Making your existing players feel less valued doesn't build culture. Bringing in a bunch of B graders from toxic culture isn't my preferred model either.

 

[Joffaboy]

Windy situ feels like Ben McEvoy all over again...

who's going to captain the club in 2-3 years time?

also aren't we just doing some circle work with the list management. didnt want battle but now we've offered the same contract pretty much to JSOS, just a year older, not as good and less resilient. to help cover that we are looking at aleek at 600-700k. 1.4m will be tied up in aleek and jsos.

Wait, we didn't want Battle? Why did we offer more for him to stay then?

 

[gringo2011]

All season you say what a great runner he is and how he presents options everywhere all game.
Suddenly he is cooked. Windhager is now a better winger than Hill. Ok mate, whatever

His work rate is exceptional. He's not a great player any more. By the end of the year he looked very old.

 

[gringo2011]

Wait, we didn't want Battle? Why did we offer more for him to stay then?

Because they tried to off load him for picks then realised how hard it is to replace him.

 

[akaifu]

If this spending spree does nothing but shake our players out and cause friction while moving sideways, it's been a fail. Windhager is 22 or something. He's only behind Nas for progression year on year and looks ready to go up to another level. The club didn't know Nas was any good apparently until it smacked them in the face.

We haven't landed any of those players except the FAs. I'd say we have undone most of the good will created if we send off homegrown talent for over priced ring ins. I was enjoying not feeling pissed off with the club for a few weeks.

I mean yeah, fair. But I see both Windy & Marshall as replaceable pieces of our future via Hastie/Trav/Box/etc & Caminiti/Keeler/Dodson

If a player is replaceable, I don't see the need to overpay for them

 

[gringo2011]

TDK isn't absolutely proven yet since he hasn't won anything, but there is so much upside with this player given what he's shown when injury-free & played as the primary ruck AND the addition of the new ruck rules that do not favour any player more than TDK. The jumping ruck is coming back, and TDK along with maybe Jackson are the two who could be at the forefront of this generation

If premiership winners like Brisbane are willing to offer up to 850k for Sam Draper - an INJURY PRONE jumping ruckman coming off an achilles injury - then that should highlight how highly clubs are starting to rate these types of players going forward

And there is with Windhager too. You have very flexible criteria.

If the ruck rules change, if he stays fit, if he develops and all of that he could definitely be the best ruck in footy. A lot to pay for potential still.

 

[akaifu]

His work rate is exceptional. He's not a great player any more. By the end of the year he looked very old.

We're talking about Bradley Hill, not Bobby

I swear Hill looked miles better in his last month than he did throughout the early parts of the season

 

[akaifu]

And there is with Windhager too. You have very flexible criteria.

If the ruck rules change, if he stays fit, if he develops and all of that he could definitely be the best ruck in footy. A lot to pay for potential still.

What do you think Windhager's ceiling is, and how does he get there?

 

[stavro#4]

On output he's at best $800k and that's generous. He's not a top 10 ruck yet.

You know this isn’t true and you know you are just trying to stir trouble.

Facts are that in the first half of the season. He was immense.

He had more coaches votes in the first half of this year than Marshall had all season.

Stats are here. No need for anyone to dispute it. Marshall got to more ruck contests across the year than TDK. But TDK tracked very similarly to Cameron at the pies. But TDK had a better hit to advantage than both.

Infact his hit to advantage % is better than any ruck over 10 games this year.

TDK in isolation

AFL Match Stats

AFL Match Stats

www.wheeloratings.com

 

[StCicatriz]

we swapped Battle for JSOS and Tarau. That's a good deal and one I'm very happy with

its really Tarau and Trav

we could have taken Tarau pick before.

 

[StCicatriz]

Wait, we didn't want Battle? Why did we offer more for him to stay then?

genie was out of the bottle at that point. i think earlier in the season it was attractive to lose him given the pick. then later in the season it was more attactive to keep him. but he had already agreed to hawthorn by then.

 

[Joffaboy]

I've given plenty of suggestions of how to build through drafting and then attack FA and chase hole fillers when you get to the right point. We are going early before results come in so now have to overpay to attract guys who aren't fully developed in.

There are plenty of Max Hall and Wilkie types in state leagues. There are plenty of good rucks stuck behind others in the AFL system.

We can't lose players as quickly as we pick them up or we'll never move forward. If our youth don't make massive strides and then commit to stay we'll never go forward.

Making your existing players feel less valued doesn't build culture. Bringing in a bunch of B graders from toxic culture isn't my preferred model either.

So what are your suggestions then? Go to state leagues and MSD while clubs get generational players like Daicos and Darcy and while GC have received 8 top ten picks in the last 3 years and are getting at least two more.
Getting players like Hall and Wilkie are PART of the solution not the whole thing, same as recognising later draftees such as Garcia, Boxshall and Dodson.
Using the SC to bring in players who cost no draft capital from saved money is also part of it.This then allows capital that hadn't been spent to be used in the draft or on targetted players.

And in the process, some players leave. As for Windy, I prefer him to stay, but it is not anywhere near a disaster such as NAZ leaving would be.
Ironic that a VFL player, drafted in the MSD in Hall is one that is in front of Windy for a mid spot.
Anyway you go off and be sad if you like, up to you.

 

[MOLTEN GANGLANDS]

Windhager is now a better winger than Hill. Ok mate, whatever

not the hill to die on

 

[stavro#4]

its really Tarau and Trav

we could have taken Tarau pick before.

But we didn’t. We took Travaglia.

 

[Joffaboy]

genie was out of the bottle at that point. i think earlier in the season it was attractive to lose him given the pick. then later in the season it was more attactive to keep him. but he had already agreed to hawthorn by then.

Regardless, it is not true we didn't want Battle, the $$$ showed we did.
Anyway JSOS and Tauru gor Battle is a win in my book.

 

[gringo2011]

I mean yeah, fair. But I see both Windy & Marshall as replaceable pieces of our future via Hastie/Trav/Box/etc & Caminiti/Keeler/Dodson

If a player is replaceable, I don't see the need to overpay for them

Marshall looks like he lost his spot to TDK as first ruck. We really don't need two first rucks and I'm not sure we get the best value for money if he stays. I can see him moving and us not being any worse off but we do move sideways and slightly up with TDK's tap work maybe.

Windhager seems absolutely negligent list management. He looks like a natural replacement for Hill on a wing and even as a true inside mid rotation but even just for his pure adaptability he seems to be a massive need. Those outside types are actually harder to find than inside mids for most clubs. We are unique in our inability to find inside ball winners.

We would be a thinner list with a weaker midfield next year after seeming to be topping up for a challenge. It makes zero sense to thin out as you top up. We might get Flanders and or Cmac but neither of them are proven midfielders yet.

And culturally it looks horrible on top of thinning out the exact age bracket we are thinnest in. Same as losing Battle it hit directly in the spot we can least afford to lose players from. We are not meant to be in perpetual rebuild if we are topping up.

 

[StCicatriz]

All season you say what a great runner he is and how he presents options everywhere all game.
Suddenly he is cooked. Windhager is now a better winger than Hill. Ok mate, whatever

hill might not be best 22 next year. he had been moved to the HFF. i think it's possible that a fit and firing liam henry could take his role.

 

[PJays]

You nuffies think that TDK is a bargain but $100k overs is daylight robbery. If we lose players as quickly as we replace them we are in perpetual stasis.

This will be a disaster if we pay top dollar to change the players over for no actual gain. If we lose Nas after 2 years we've just blown another couple of years going nowhere again.

Somehow we just never quite manage to get our shit sorted. So far under Lyon and SOS we've gone backwards every year, if they spend up big and can't move us forward the whole board need to go and FD staff need a review.

Thank you gringo2011

A good time to acknowledge I appreciate your contributions. You're more succinct and more knowledgeable than me, with a level-headed perspective, and often hit the nail on the head as you have here.