List Mgmt. 2025 List Management Discussion - Part IV

[Hubnester]

2025 List Management Discussion - Part 4

Now that our season is over, and news is starting to break - it's time for a fresh thread.

This thread is to discuss all things list management - trades, draft, free agency, delistings and more.
As we are now officially in our off-season, we'll be wanting to keep this thread more strictly on-topic than the previous iterations.
Be respectful. You are allowed to disagree with someone - but play the ball, not the man. Repeat offenders will have their posting rights revoked.

Thanks to Lore once again for this incredibly useful spreadsheet.

2025 KEY DATES
Free Agency Period: Friday, October 3rd - Friday, October 10th
Trade Period: Monday, October 6th - Wednesday, October 15th
AFL Draft: Wednesday, November 19th - Thursday, November 20th

See Also:
2025 Year in Review Rumours & Confirmed Movements 2025 Draft Discussion
​

 

[gringo2011]

I really rate Zac Jones. I think he's been great for the club, and while nobody could say he's been a star, he gives his absolute all every time, and is a Saints man through-and-through.

Time hasn't really caught up with him, but a rising level lifts all boats, and effort is not going to be enough at this stage. I would have him comfortably outside the best 22, unless we have a massive injury issue.

I think at the this stage of the clubs progression, we must now roll the dice and move past players who are good enough without being really good. The same is probably true with Byrnes. Both players have attributes that until now were in short supply at the club - that burst of speed, that tenacity and desperation that really is their trademark - but we need to get that out of our better players, take off the band-aid and allow us to live or die on their actions than thin out the squad with (with the utmost respect) GOPs. Our youth progression demands it and the club isn't doing its job properly if it continues to make up the numbers in the squad.
I absolutely believe Zac Jones's best opportunity - if he still wants to play professional footy - is a leadership position in our inaugural VFL side, and I would love to see that frankly.

He'd be perfect for the job. The only issue might be his wage, so I guess the ball is in his court what he wants to do, if he wants to move on to a more lucrative profession or not.

Jones has been too uneven. His best was great but he went missing too often. He’s been frustrating to watch. He could have been an excellent player but stalled.

 

[BrutThough]

Looking at the list, if we assume Marshall gone, it seems the biggest holes:

1. Centre half forward:

• I’m not convinced Caminiti is the answer forward.
• Sharman/Owens are undersized
• We can’t rely on King. And if he goes down we have 0 high caliber Key forwards.
• If King is fit and we play a fast ball movement game plan this could work but some big Ifs.
• Do we commit to Tauru in this role?
• if we’re serious about playing finals/contending in the next couple of years it makes zero sense getting rid of Marshall while we have no alternative.

2. Lock down back pocket:
I’m fans of Hastie and O’Connell BUT as this stage we’re projecting they will be good AFL footballers and can play the role.
Perhaps we back in one of those 2?
Or do we roll the dice and play the 4 talls and 2 half back?

I wonder if one of the talls - Wilkie or Aleer - is being project as also being able to play small?

 

[stavro#4]

I wonder if one of the talls - Wilkie or Aleer - is being project as also being able to play small?

Has to be Wilkie.

Then he just rolls off and becomes third man

 

[Tommy Wigs]

If the Brisbane model of multiple forwards who can roll through the midfield and have maximum impact from multiple touches is the way forward.

Ainsworth would be a significant upgrade on Dan Butler.

People can tell me about Ryan Henry Hall Higgins etc.

But smalls who can have 15 touches a goal and a direct goal assist every week are worth their weight in gold these days.

He has also been close to ever present under Hardwick. So is hardly some shit footballer.

24/25 games this year.
17/23 last
21/23 2023
22/23 2022

Yep agree. I’m not fingers crossed with him. But I wouldn’t be unhappy with it. Moves well, has some tricks, and good skills. But that’s also assuming Butler leaves otherwise it’s hardly a need, perhaps isn’t regardless. And I agree that he is an upgrade on Butler.

 

[stavro#4]

Yep agree. I’m not fingers crossed with him. But I wouldn’t be unhappy with it. Moves well, has some tricks, and good skills. But that’s also assuming Butler leaves otherwise it’s hardly a need, perhaps isn’t regardless. And I agree that he is an upgrade on Butler.

Agreed on all points.

It’s also a rumour at this stage and let’s see what happens.

 

[Tommy Wigs]

Completely agree which begs the question… why did we bring in McRae and what has changed.

Well, yes, I wasn’t the biggest fan of it, but I’d arguably have him in front of Steele and not sure we need both when they’re both getting decent coin. Perhaps what has changed isn’t so much some enormous change in the game, but a continuation of the trend towards pace and agility and positional flexibility.

Team-wise, Nas has changed everything. And finding Hall and Beastshall (even if early), as well as Windy’s year and Hugo continuing to grow have also changed my optimism about our emerging midfield.

 

[busso_mick]

I don't think it's his mic, I think it's his voice!

I think after a regimen of drugs for a good tan and roaring boners, his voice was impacted?

He should be seen and not hird.

 

[Tommy Wigs]

I don't think it's his mic, I think it's his voice!

I think after a regimen of drugs for a good tan and roaring boners, his voice was impacted?

He’s reasonably monotone, isn’t he! Perhaps not as bad as Bucks. But he’s very level headed. I avoided almost all footy shows this year, but a couple of times I caught the show with Bartel and Hird and it was refreshing for the absence of big-noting and punching down on easy targets. Why do so many media personalities need to deliver everything like a team that lost or isn’t performing well kicked their dog or flicked them on the balls. So unnecessarily angry.

 

[Tommy Wigs]

Has to be Wilkie.

Then he just rolls off and becomes third man

It seems to be a strategy for exactly that but across the board - reasonably mobile, quite tall collectively, and lots and lots of team defence coverage. I’m not an advocate for getting Aleer, but Sosos, Tauru, Wilkie and Aleer will all do that. Probably Hastie and LOC if they play too / instead. Hawthorn is set up quite like that with Battle, Barrass, Sicily and Scrimshaw.

 

[ScrappyDo]

I wonder if one of the talls - Wilkie or Aleer - is being project as also being able to play small?

Has to be Wilkie.

Then he just rolls off and becomes third man

We'll see things step up a notch with Wilkie in that role. No more having him playing 5cms undersized and accountable he'll cutting oppo inside 50's to shreds.

 

[Yawkey way]

If the Brisbane model of multiple forwards who can roll through the midfield and have maximum impact from multiple touches is the way forward.

Ainsworth would be a significant upgrade on Dan Butler.

People can tell me about Ryan Henry Hall Higgins etc.

But smalls who can have 15 touches a goal and a direct goal assist every week are worth their weight in gold these days.

He has also been close to ever present under Hardwick. So is hardly some shit footballer.

24/25 games this year.
17/23 last
21/23 2023
22/23 2022

I didn’t say he was shit.

I said he’s a decent player but not a mid imo. The ability to roll through there is overstated in most cases. Higgins was a tac ball magnet, would you say we roll him through the mids ?.

As always he’s a contracted GC player, personally I don’t see value there. If we can include him in the Flanders trade then well done to our team but I don’t know how realistic that is.

Also list spots are getting tight already so we’re now at a one in one out situation so I think hypotheticals should include who you’re trading out. Contracted players don’t have to just say how high, you get their noses out of joint and maybe you’re doing more harm than good now.

Butler was in the leadership group voted in by his team mates, so we’re saying goodbye potentially to how many in that group.

I’m looking for quality now not just because we can deals. Once again Aleer looks looks and more like we’re overpaying a player we don’t need but are too far down the track to pull out. If you want Ainsworth do we still need Ryan?.

It’s interesting that Brisbane who you site as the model will have a returning Hipwood and have recruited Allen, is it choice or situational. The hawks are the same you can’t play quality keys you don’t have. Teams that have quality keys play them and those that don’t are looking to acquire then, Geelong want Curnow, Collingwood, Sydney, and so on.

Great win by Brisbane but whack a mole small forwards isn’t new, it’s been done before and disappeared. Any set up is dependent on quality and several of their smalls aren’t that small and are strong overhead like lohmann. In fact most are strong overhead and are more mediums than smalls.

Anyway is there still a mystery mid ? Is Acres a chance to return ? Who’s in the crosshairs ? Will Marshall get done ? I’d be very disappointed in we lipped Marshall for Ainsworth.

Interesting times but you reach a point where sitting back and waiting even at the risk off doing nothing else is the right move imo.

 

[gringo2011]

Nothing to do with Ainsworth being a shit player, I don't believe that at all, it is just that we have that position well covered already with who we have and are spending capital to bring in a 29 year old Ryan.

I am not against the Saints going after more than the five already targetted, I just query if he's the right fit. In my view we should focus on other area's of weakness. Maybe Butler is on the table

Addressing your tweet earlier, I am not against us using as much capital as we can including future drafts.
Our record with getting diamonds in the rough of late had been outstanding with rookies and mid season drafts. Get what we need now, and trust Dalrmple to find the late pick gems.

I think he’s more Ollie Florent than Dan Butler. It’s a different role. I’ve come around to the idea.

 

[Tommy Wigs]

Agreed on all points.

It’s also a rumour at this stage and let’s see what happens.

I’m not sure what is happening in Bobby Hill’s background, but if it’s more a case of personal mental health issues and not being a naughty boy (no idea), then I’d be all in.

 

[stavro#4]

Well, yes, I wasn’t the biggest fan of it, but I’d arguably have him in front of Steele and not sure we need both when they’re both getting decent coin. Perhaps what has changed isn’t so much some enormous change in the game, but a continuation of the trend towards pace and agility and positional flexibility.

Team-wise, Nas has changed everything. And finding Hall and Beastshall (even if early), as well as Windy’s year and Hugo continuing to grow have also changed my optimism about our emerging midfield.

Nas
Macrae
Windy
Garcia
STEELE
Boxshall

Hall should get more time

And 12 months from now Flanders and Pou should be ahead.

For me it’s Steele or Macrae and I think Macrae gives us more well rounded output.

 

[Tommy Wigs]

We'll see things step up a notch with Wilkie in that role. No more having him playing 5cms undersized and accountable he'll cutting oppo inside 50's to shreds.

Thank god he is staying.

He would have changed everything for the Dogs. Double double plus outcome.

But I guess they have Caleb Daniel’s little brother Budarick coming in as a quality Full Back.

 

[stavro#4]

I didn’t say he was shit.

I said he’s a decent player but not a mid imo. The ability to roll through there is overstated in most cases. Higgins was a tac ball magnet, would you say we roll him through the mids ?.

As always he’s a contracted GC player, personally I don’t see value there. If we can include him in the Flanders trade then well done to our team but I don’t know how realistic that is.

Also list spots are getting tight already so we’re now at a one in one out situation so I think hypotheticals should include who you’re trading out. Contracted players don’t have to just say how high, you get their noses out of joint and maybe you’re doing more harm than good now.

Butler was in the leadership group voted in by his team mates, so we’re saying goodbye potentially to how many in that group.

I’m looking for quality now not just because we can deals. Once again Aleer looks looks and more like we’re overpaying a player we don’t need but are too far down the track to pull out. If you want Ainsworth do we still need Ryan?.

It’s interesting that Brisbane who you site as the model will have a returning Hipwood and have recruited Allen, is it choice or situational. The hawks are the same you can’t play quality keys you don’t have. Teams that have quality keys play them and those that don’t are looking to acquire then, Geelong want Curnow, Collingwood, Sydney, and so on.

Great win by Brisbane but whack a mole small forwards isn’t new, it’s been done before and disappeared. Any set up is dependent on quality and several of their smalls aren’t that small and are strong overhead like lohmann. In fact most are strong overhead and are more mediums than smalls.

Anyway is there still a mystery mid ? Is Acres a chance to return ? Who’s in the crosshairs ? Will Marshall get done ? I’d be very disappointed in we lipped Marshall for Ainsworth.

Interesting times but you reach a point where sitting back and waiting even at the risk off doing nothing else is the right move imo.

Didn’t Ross say towards the back end of the season that he wanted to roll Higgins through the midfield next season?

Outside of king our entire front half looks mobile. Even if Caminiti plays forward with King. They both move well.

Hawthorn as you mentioned destroy sides with their ability to rotate 8-9 guys between arcs etc.

 

[stavro#4]

Tom Morris opinion is that

Pick 7 is the main part of the Flanders deal. But others involved.

Marshall gets to Geelong with their first as the key part of that deal - but also other picks involved.

 

[Fehring]

Nas
Macrae
Windy
Garcia
STEELE
Boxshall

Hall should get more time

And 12 months from now Flanders and Pou should be ahead.

For me it’s Steele or Macrae and I think Macrae gives us more well rounded output.

One thing that gives me pause is that I had given up on Steele and decided his body was just too banged up, which is not uncommon for a guy of his age who plays the way he does. But his end to the season was good, and I would like to see what he could do with a good preseason and no captaincy responsibilities. But maybe I'm deluding myself? Because I actually thought he had an uninterrupted preseason last year.

 

[stavro#4]

One thing that gives me pause is that I had given up on Steele and decided his body was just too banged up, which is not uncommon for a guy of his age who plays the way he does. But his end to the season was good, and I would like to see what he could do with a good preseason and no captaincy responsibilities. But maybe I'm deluding myself? Because I actually thought he had an uninterrupted preseason last year.

I think Steele’s best footy is when he is a few Kgs heavier and he can play that bulk role.

The issue is that Ross is very strict about weight limits as he wants his midfielders lean to cover ground as opposed to inside beasts.

I just think a move is best for both parties.

 

[Tommy Wigs]

I didn’t say he was shit.

I said he’s a decent player but not a mid imo. The ability to roll through there is overstated in most cases. Higgins was a tac ball magnet, would you say we roll him through the mids ?.

As always he’s a contracted GC player, personally I don’t see value there. If we can include him in the Flanders trade then well done to our team but I don’t know how realistic that is.

Also list spots are getting tight already so we’re now at a one in one out situation so I think hypotheticals should include who you’re trading out. Contracted players don’t have to just say how high, you get their noses out of joint and maybe you’re doing more harm than good now.

Butler was in the leadership group voted in by his team mates, so we’re saying goodbye potentially to how many in that group.

I’m looking for quality now not just because we can deals. Once again Aleer looks looks and more like we’re overpaying a player we don’t need but are too far down the track to pull out. If you want Ainsworth do we still need Ryan?.

It’s interesting that Brisbane who you site as the model will have a returning Hipwood and have recruited Allen, is it choice or situational. The hawks are the same you can’t play quality keys you don’t have. Teams that have quality keys play them and those that don’t are looking to acquire then, Geelong want Curnow, Collingwood, Sydney, and so on.

Great win by Brisbane but whack a mole small forwards isn’t new, it’s been done before and disappeared. Any set up is dependent on quality and several of their smalls aren’t that small and are strong overhead like lohmann. In fact most are strong overhead and are more mediums than smalls.

Anyway is there still a mystery mid ? Is Acres a chance to return ? Who’s in the crosshairs ? Will Marshall get done ? I’d be very disappointed in we lipped Marshall for Ainsworth.

Interesting times but you reach a point where sitting back and waiting even at the risk off doing nothing else is the right move imo.

Agree on Ainsworth - if they do like him, then he’s not coming in as someone that will roll through the mids. Roll through the high half forwards, sure.

I doubt we would get much for Butler, but if he’s, say, a 3rd rounder by himself, then Ainsworth wouldn’t be more than a mid to late second imv. Which, by itself, doesn’t appear to be value when compared to what we need. But I tend to think similarly about Flyin’, albeit he’s so out of mind / out of sight that perhaps that’s unfair.

 

[Fehring]

Didn’t Ross say towards the back end of the season that he wanted to roll Higgins through the midfield next season?

Outside of king our entire front half looks mobile. Even if Caminiti plays forward with King. They both move well.

Hawthorn as you mentioned destroy sides with their ability to rotate 8-9 guys between arcs etc.

Hawks and Brissie both have this phalanx of mid-forwards. It seems to be the in-vogue prototype, so I wasn't surprised that they wanted Ryan while also holding on to Collard and all the other smalls (and not surprising that he'd like Higgo to run through mid. The stay-at-home small forward is maybe not dead, but seemingly out of fashion).

 

[Fehring]

I think Steele’s best footy is when he is a few Kgs heavier and he can play that bulk role.

The issue is that Ross is very strict about weight limits as he wants his midfielders lean to cover ground as opposed to inside beasts.

I just think a move is best for both parties.

Yeah, his struggles actually do line up with his slimmer physique so that makes sense. And you only lose pace as you age, so bulking up now would not be ideal.

 

[akaifu]

Odds on SOS and Gubby dodging this

 

[CaptainRisky]

Didn’t Ross say towards the back end of the season that he wanted to roll Higgins through the midfield next season?

Outside of king our entire front half looks mobile. Even if Caminiti plays forward with King. They both move well.

Hawthorn as you mentioned destroy sides with their ability to rotate 8-9 guys between arcs etc.

Pigs might fly too , just cant see it happening myself

 

[Tommy Wigs]

Nas
Macrae
Windy
Garcia
STEELE
Boxshall

Hall should get more time

And 12 months from now Flanders and Pou should be ahead.

For me it’s Steele or Macrae and I think Macrae gives us more well rounded output.

Agree on all of that. Pou is massive for our direction, one way or another. But I love the boy.