Test The Ashes First Test November 21-25 1300hrs @ Perth Stadium

[the_interloper]

Not that I agree with this necessarily but I’ve heard arguments put forward for Sobers in cricket. I don’t see that it stacks up because, quite simply, it doesn’t. And the couple of names I’ve heard in hockey - I think from memory Gordie Howe was one of them - he doesn’t either.

On an unrelated note I just saw a horse not unlike Shadowfax from Lord of the Rings simply running down my street while I have a smoke on my morning break

Yeah I had heard Howe mentioned as well, I know nothing about that sport so not prepared to argue that one.

If you're talking all round cricketers Sobers is a good choice, great bat obviously, bowled quick and spin and a great fielder too. I'd argue Kallis is at least his peer though, but if you're picking a greatest team ever Bradman first, put him at 3 and then worry about the rest.

 

[Pistol Night]

Yeah I did think of that, I thought I'd heard other answers than Gretzky though, not the case in cricket.



Nope, people say Lebron, I think you could make a strong case for Chamberlain actually given how dominant he was. Again, not as clear cut as cricket. Cricket is very statistically driven though so we have good concrete evidence of the gap between Bradman and the rest, NBA tends to rely a lot on championships which is why I think Bill Russell is overrated.



Yeah fair enough. Actually I'd always heard about Jansher Khan in that sport, think he did something similar.

Anyone that says LeBron is anywhere near MJ need to lay off the crack pipe

 

[MarcMaverick]

Women's squash is a niche sport but Heather McKay not losing a game between 1962 and 1981 is pretty impressive.

Relevance?

 

[the_interloper]

Anyone that says LeBron is anywhere near MJ need to lay off the crack pipe

I think it's MJ, so do I still need to lay off the crackies?

 

[Pistol Night]

I think it's MJ, so do I still need to lay off the crackies?

No. Enjoy responsibly.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Ussie should be dropped and definitely no farwell. This is test cricket ffs.

Who cares once series is wrapped up

 

[Cleavy]

It’s interesting.
Gilchrist undoubtedly earned his spot, no question.

But a look at his Shield efforts makes it a bit less clear cut.

He had been good - above average - but not absolutely demanding selection.
He had hit 2444 runs at 37 in the six seasons before that and he had a good deal of help from some not-outs.

6 centuries across 6 seasons, one season with more than 500 runs; for context, the top 5 run scorers were all hitting 900+ each year generally, his best was 757 in 1995-96.

His best year average wise was 1997-98 and that came courtesy of 421 runs at 60; largely boosted by 3 not outs from his 10 innings, and half of those runs came in one innings.

Undoubtedly his freak one day batting, and the fact that he was showing he could produce the occasional exceptional knock in long format cricket meant he was a logical successor to Healy but he wasn’t absolutely belting the door down. He’d only averaged more than 40 twice in his career for a season and one of those occasions came almost half a decade before he eventually got his chance (95-96)

out of interest, how do his Shield stats for those years compare to the other state wicketkeepers at the time?

 

[Southerntakeover]

Relatively speaking it is.

Sorry mate but if you’ve read anything I’ve written about cricket I’m pretty sure you know I’m fully aware of Warne’s contributions to virtually every series he ever played and any regular poster in this forum, the ones who like me and the ones who don’t, will back me up on that. Whether you agree with my opinion on his quality over there or not is irrelevant.

I think you spend way too much time self admiring your message board persona.

If you didn't know about the series it's shoddy analysis, if you did you're intentionally disingenuous in pretending you can't identify a difference.

Neither does you any credit.

 

[PhatBoy]

out of interest, how do his Shield stats for those years compare to the other state wicketkeepers at the time?

Good question.
1997-97 you can make the argument that Berry and Nielsen had better seasons; their averages were 30, same as Gilchrist, but didn’t get any cushioning really and they both hit centuries and scored more runs. Seccomb averaged 30 and hit a century that season as well. Gilchrist hit 2 50s and had a top score of 67.

Outside of that he was the clear stand-out. So if Healy was going to go, there was never any question about who should come in.

The irony of all of it was this: Gilchrist himself being arguably kept out of the Australian team as a glove man, was holding back the next best Australian keeper-batsman:

Easily the best qualified run scorer across Shield through the back half of the 90s who was also a notable ‘permanent’ keeper for any length of time was Ryan Campbell, who frequently had high 30s seasons opening the batting:

672 at 37 (1 century and 6 50s)
726 at 38 (3 centuries and 3 50s)
885 at 49 (2 centuries and 5 50s - and I believe that came when he had started to keep as Gilchrist missed more and more state cricket)

 

[PhatBoy]

I think you spend way too much time self admiring your message board persona.

If you didn't know about the series it's shoddy analysis, if you did you're intentionally disingenuous in pretending you can't identify a difference.

Neither does you any credit.

You can think whatever the hell you want about my posts. Thinking i somehow wasn’t aware of what happened during the biggest win Australia has had in arguably 30 years is pretty f**ken stupid though I’ll give you that. Next you’ll suggest I didn’t hear about Clarke’s hundred in Bangalore or his 6/9 or Martyn’s hundreds during the series or something.

How is it shoddy analysis to draw a conclusion that a once in a lifetime player also had a significantly poorer level of output in one - actually two - places in which he played just because he once managed a decent contribution there?

Sourav Ganguly once managed to bat his team to a Honorable draw with a first innings 144 at the Gabba.

I’m not about to call on him to bat for my life on a bouncy deck though am I.

 

[DangerSloane]

Cook benefited from the side from 2012-2014 being elite. Just look at that side, it beat up on a lot of sides in that area. Root has done in in more areas, Cook was poor against more than Root even he'd admit his record vs sa is average and NZ isn't any better.

We do remember that Cook opened too right and didnt bat 4 like Root?

There's always a premium applied to those that have to face the new ball every time.

 

[DangerSloane]

It was interesting how they picked Gilly as a batsman only before he played as wicket keeper...

That is if my memory is correct.

 

[PhatBoy]

We do remember that Cook opened too right and didnt bat 4 like Root?

There's always a premium applied to those that have to face the new ball every time.

Not in Asia there isn’t. Where Root is also elite.

 

[BStaff17]

Did we? Ponting was lingering for a long while, seeing he averaged under 40 for the three years prior to retirement. Plus, he only averaged 6 in that South African series when he was finally pushed.

Punter just didn't read the room the time to call it was the India series when he had those last moments of greatness. Bit like Buddy Franklin going on after randomly getting 50+ goals at 36 years old, sometimes the universe allows for a great player to retire a hero, should they want it.

The 2013 Ashes was 6 months away when Punter retired. I understand why he tried.

He was one of leading the Shield run-scorers that summer in his final year. So he was banging down the door.

Hussey retiring 3 tests later probably hurt us more in that transition who racked up 3 centuries that summer.

He opted to retire on a high then go 12 months too long.

 

[PhatBoy]

It was interesting how they picked Gilly as a batsman only before he played as wicket keeper...

That is if my memory is correct.

he batted 6 in his first five matches in 1997; it was actually Michael Di Venuto who was used in the ‘go out and whack it’ capacity at that stage. After that he kept permanently

 

[LukeParkerno1]

We do remember that Cook opened too right and didnt bat 4 like Root?

There's always a premium applied to those that have to face the new ball every time.

In some conditions it’s easier to open especially Asia but in some areas it’s the other way. It’s the reason Head opened in Asia ball doesn’t turn for 10 overs or so. Where they bat has nothing to do with it. Root is a better bat

 

[Jim Prideaux]

Not that I agree with this necessarily but I’ve heard arguments put forward for Sobers in cricket. I don’t see that it stacks up because, quite simply, it doesn’t. And the couple of names I’ve heard in hockey - I think from memory Gordie Howe was one of them - he doesn’t either.

On an unrelated note I just saw a horse not unlike Shadowfax from Lord of the Rings simply running down my street while I have a smoke on my morning break

The end times are near Phat

 

[Kapow!!!]

You can think whatever the hell you want about my posts. Thinking i somehow wasn’t aware of what happened during the biggest win Australia has had in arguably 30 years is pretty f**ken stupid though I’ll give you that. Next you’ll suggest I didn’t hear about Clarke’s hundred in Bangalore or his 6/9 or Martyn’s hundreds during the series or something.

How is it shoddy analysis to draw a conclusion that a once in a lifetime player also had a significantly poorer level of output in one - actually two - places in which he played just because he once managed a decent contribution there?

Sourav Ganguly once managed to bat his team to a Honorable draw with a first innings 144 at the Gabba.

I’m not about to call on him to bat for my life on a bouncy deck though am I.

Reading a lot from the players around Warney on all his Indian tours I think if you're going to draw a line of delineation around his 2 failed tours and 1 successful one and all the other anomalies like Root in Australia is that just about all the other anomalies had a glaring deficiency/weakness in their technique to the conditions they were said to have struggled in. Warne's deficiency however was ignorance rather than technique: He learned too late that turning it square on dustbowls counter-intuitively negates the actual threat of side spin. It becomes easy to defend or leave, becomes predictable. 2004 he learned that less revs, subtle movements with the rare right angle turner every spell just to show you've got it in your arsenal was actually the way to go. Who knows, had his Indian tours lined up a bit better with his maturing game intellect he may well have had a couple of tours where he was dangerous in India. But alas ignorance and naivety are still technical deficiencies, just far less quantifiable ones.

I think we give Root a bit more credit in the maturity stakes and assume his inability to deal with bounce is an ingrained technical one i.e. High front elbows struggle against faster rising bounce but maybe he is just similarly ignorant and refuses to put a couple of shots away even though he clearly has the capability and shots to deal with what he has faced.

 

[DangerSloane]

In some conditions it’s easier to open especially Asia but in some areas it’s the other way. It’s the reason Head opened in Asia ball doesn’t turn for 10 overs or so. Where they bat has nothing to do with it. Root is a better bat

I dont believe this to be true at all.

Where do you get the facts that its easier to open in Asia?

 

[PhatBoy]

Reading a lot from the players around Warney on all his Indian tours I think if you're going to draw a line of delineation around his 2 failed tours and 1 successful one and all the other anomalies like Root in Australia is that just about all the other anomalies had a glaring deficiency/weakness in their technique to the conditions they were said to have struggled in. Warne's deficiency however was ignorance rather than technique: He learned too late that turning it square on dustbowls counter-intuitively negates the actual threat of side spin. It becomes easy to defend or leave, becomes predictable. 2004 he learned that less revs, subtle movements with the rare right angle turner every spell just to show you've got it in your arsenal was actually the way to go. Who knows, had his Indian tours lined up a bit better with his maturing game intellect he may well have had a couple of tours where he was dangerous in India. But alas ignorance and naivety are still technical deficiencies, just far less quantifiable ones.

I think we give Root a bit more credit in the maturity stakes and assume his inability to deal with bounce is an ingrained technical one i.e. High front elbows struggle against faster rising bounce but maybe he is just similarly ignorant and refuses to put a couple of shots away even though he clearly has the capability and shots to deal with what he has faced.

Warne became a smarter bowler in the last 5-6 years of his career there’s no question. And I don’t disagree with what you’re saying.

That ‘04 Indian team also didn’t have the same level of mental strength to deal with someone as intelligent and canny as Warne. Tendulkar and Ganguly only played two tests each - players like Mohammad Kaif and Partiv Patel and Yuvraj Singh weren’t up to it. Contrast that to say, 1998: he wasn’t a world beater as far as being a great opener goes but a guy like Navjot Sidhu on home pitches used to treat visiting spinners like they were primary schoolers and Warne at that stage didn’t really know what had hit him. The days when the back-up batsmen were ‘great’ players of spin had passed, and he actually had a good series against Laxman who was obviously a great player against spin himself.
Sehwag was the only one who really played well - that 150-odd was a fantastic knock.

 

[PhatBoy]

I dont believe this to be true at all.

Where do you get the facts that its easier to open in Asia?

I’m no scientician but I’ve been led to believe by all and sundry including yourself in this very discussion that places like NZ and SA are the hardest places to open.

Which means somewhere has to be the easiest.

I’d have started my search for the easiest, with the places where there are, to my knowledge off the top of my head, 1 Sri Lankan, 0 Bangladeshi, 6(?) Indians, and 4 Pakistani fast bowlers have taken over 200 test wickets. I’d put that down to, in part, the fact that it can’t be all THAT helpful with the new ball.

 

[PhatBoy]

The end times are near Phat

It was literally like something out of the apocalypse: windy, dark clouds, storm approaching, then this horse bolts down a country street with its white main flowing

 

[DangerSloane]

I’m no scientician but I’ve been led to believe by all and sundry including yourself in this very discussion that places like NZ and SA are the hardest places to open.

Which means somewhere has to be the easiest.

I’d have started my search for the easiest, with the places where there are, to my knowledge off the top of my head, 1 Sri Lankan, 0 Bangladeshi, 6(?) Indians, and 4 Pakistani fast bowlers have taken over 200 test wickets. I’d put that down to, in part, the fact that it can’t be all THAT helpful with the new ball.

Thats skipping a number of steps.

Just off the top of my head:

• Fast bowlers bowl less overs in the sub continent because of the conditions.
• Teams have been known to play more spinners, and open the bowling with spinners.

I think opening is harder no matter where the game is played. Your inference that saying its hard to open the batting in NZ and SA makes it easy in the subcontinent is wild.
Not to mention the fact that when you're using averages, a middle order bat is far more likely to finish an innings not out than an opener which moves the averages.

 

[PhatBoy]

Thats skipping a number of steps.

Just off the top of my head:

• Fast bowlers bowl less overs in the sub continent because of the conditions.
• Teams have been known to play more spinners, and open the bowling with spinners.

I think opening is harder no matter where the game is played. Your inference that saying its hard to open the batting in NZ and SA makes it easy in the subcontinent is wild.

Not as wild as yours when you said Cook has no holes in his record.

If I’m going to try and make runs in Asia and I have a choice of when I’m going to do it as a specialist batsman from England who has been raised facing mostly pace bowling, as both Root and Cook have, I’m going to prefer to face as much as I can early on when the ball is hard and when you ARE likely to face a newer ball that isn’t moving off the pitch (generally), may have a LITTLE bit of conventional swing, before getting into the meat of the innings where you have 2-3 spinners coming at you with men crowded around the bat. Or later on when the ball starts to reverse swing.

Cook would have also got a pretty good view of Root making 180 and a couple of half centuries when they opened together in the 2013 Ashes.

 

[sherb]

Ahead of the 2010-11 series, England came here a month early, played 2 state games (albeit 3 days long but that's still something) and a 4 day match against Australia A in Hobart. Even if they didn't win that series, they could at least look themselves in the mirror and say that preparation wasn't the issue. They also played a tour match against Victoria in between the Perth and Melbourne Tests.

What do this lot do in comparison? Play some hit and giggle games in New Zealand, 3 ODI matches in Kiwiland and a scratch match against the England Lions in Lilac Hill. Not the preparation for an away Ashes series. As the saying goes, 'fail to prepare, prepare to fail'.

Admittedly, their preparation for the 2013-14 series was pretty good in terms of the volume of cricket they played leading up to the 1st Test. They were just on the receiving end of Mitch Johnson being basically unplayable, which can happen.

It's not the first time he's been dismissive during a post match interview - did the same thing Mike Atherton when questioned him on whether England could have done things differently during the Old Trafford Test and the 2023 series on the whole. He's been an absolute tosser from the 2023 Lord's Test onwards.

In fairness, that's not just an England thing.

Australia in England 2023: WTC Final, five Ashes Tests and that was it. Even if one wanted to argue that the WTC final was the lead in match for the Ashes, where were the preparation matches for the WTC final?
Australia in India 2023: Four B-G Tests, followed by 3 ODIs. Again, that was it. No preparation matches.

There seem to be two reasons for the lack of lead-in matches. Obviously, the crowded schedule doesn't allow for tours of any length any more. Also, the authorities seem reluctant to schedule them (I am sure I recall there was a bit of a clamour for lead in matches to India 2023 and CA said no).