2017 Trade and FA thread

[Johnny Bananas]

The people responsible for drafting Josh with the #2 pick should of, and did select him with confidence.

From Josh's perspective, I sympathise with the pressure and duty he must have felt. It's hard trying to live up to that when you're personally unhappy with the situation.

From the Lions' perspective though this is flat wrong, you're trying to put lipstick on a pig. The next pick after Schache was a Lions supporter who is now on his way to being an elite midfielder. This was a terrible mistake by the club, and blundering into it with a misplaced sense of confidence simply made it worse.

 

[luthor]

From Josh's perspective, I sympathise with the pressure and duty he must have felt. It's hard trying to live up to that when you're personally unhappy with the situation.

From the Lions' perspective though this is flat wrong, you're trying to put lipstick on a pig. The next pick after Schache was a Lions supporter who is now on his way to being an elite midfielder. This was a terrible mistake by the club, and blundering into it with a misplaced sense of confidence simply made it worse.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Everyone though recruiting Schache was a terrific idea at the time.

I honestly can't recall anyone , at least not in this place, expressing strong doubts about Schache at the time he was drafted.

 

[luthor]

View attachment 430887
You guys can discuss all this later at the duck pond.

I'm the good looking one.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Everyone though recruiting Schache was a terrific idea at the time.

I honestly can't recall anyone , at least not in this place, expressing strong doubts about Schache at the time he was drafted.

None of the posters here had the resources and access to Schache that the club did.

 

[Daniels Riches]

From Josh's perspective, I sympathise with the pressure and duty he must have felt. It's hard trying to live up to that when you're personally unhappy with the situation.

From the Lions' perspective though this is flat wrong, you're trying to put lipstick on a pig. The next pick after Schache was a Lions supporter who is now on his way to being an elite midfielder. This was a terrible mistake by the club, and blundering into it with a misplaced sense of confidence simply made it worse.

You seem pretty confident there Johnny. I know exactly how Josh felt when he was drafted to the Lions and what he told our recruiters. Sorry, but you are flat wrong. Could write an essay on this, but have said it all before.

 

[Dalions]

From Josh's perspective, I sympathise with the pressure and duty he must have felt. It's hard trying to live up to that when you're personally unhappy with the situation.

From the Lions' perspective though this is flat wrong, you're trying to put lipstick on a pig. The next pick after Schache was a Lions supporter who is now on his way to being an elite midfielder. This was a terrible mistake by the club, and blundering into it with a misplaced sense of confidence simply made it worse.

Imagine the fall back if we didn't take Josh Schache. He was the perfect fit for us at the time and everyone thought so, recruiters, media and supporters.
In hindsight if we were to have the pick all over again knowing the result 2 years later and knowing who we picked up at pick 39 I would take Darcy Parish over Clayton Oliver.

 

[bungalow_bill]

In what instances would the AFL block a trade? You would think the Suns trade was close to the mark

 

[Johnny Bananas]

You seem pretty confident there Johnny. I know exactly how Josh felt when he was drafted to the Lions and what he told our recruiters. Sorry, but you are flat wrong. Could write an essay on this, but have said it all before.

That's super. The part you bolded isn't about Josh and his feelings, it's about the club's decision making process. I'm aware you're friends with Josh. Why are you touchy about the club's decision making though?

 

[SizeMatters]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Everyone though recruiting Schache was a terrific idea at the time.

I honestly can't recall anyone , at least not in this place, expressing strong doubts about Schache at the time he was drafted.

Fair enough, I still rate Schache but I just think Weitering is a tier above him in body positioning, reading of the play and willingness to get involved and I think the way Weitering plays he can step up straight into the AFL. Schache is still a while off IMO in terms of accountability, aggression and body positioning. I watched Schache 6 goal performance (his best game apparently) and I think it has been over rated. 3 of his goals were created from sitting off his opponent Frances when he was running off him of which only a poor disposal a kick or two into the oppositions counter attack nabbed him the goals (won't happen as often in AFL).
I haven't seen much 1v1 contests with body positioning from Schache either which is concerning as in the AFL that is the bread and butter to getting goals these days. I can see he has talent and is an elite finisher but still has a long way to go. From my understanding from interviews and watching clips he is a bit reluctant to get into a contested situation. From what I have seen Schache possesses great leading patterns, which is from a deeper understanding of the game which helps him immensely much like Daniher in his draft year. Lacks explosiveness to get separation from his opponent but I think he can remedy this by engaging and pushing off his opponent prior to a hard lead which IMO is missing from his game. Can easily be taught.

Wouldn't mind either and Schache is the better fit but I think long term Weitering will be a better player.

I agree with bolded part. After watching a few U18 games I'm not really seeing the love for Schache. Yes he has scored goals (most I have seen is from turnovers up the field) but there are some major flaws in his game. I haven't really seen him win many contested marks or use his body effectively compared to Weitering, although I might have been watching his poorer games??. Weitering is still IMO comfortably the best player in the draft currently.

Before he was drafted I had strong doubts but in saying that he was clearly the best fit for our club at the time... it was unthinkable to pass on the nations best performed key forward given our position at the time. We had Close and Freeman as our saviours to put things into perspective.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Imagine the fall back if we didn't take Josh Schache. He was the perfect fit for us at the time and everyone thought so, recruiters, media and supporters.

Management are not paid to make the popular decision or the media's decision. They're paid to make the right decision. Any criticism given to the club would be obviated if it turned out to be the right decision, one that delivered best results. I'm sure supporters would much prefer to win a flag through decisions they may not have agreed with at the time, than to get the players that they personally rated but aren't conducive to team success.

 

[Kevvo]

That's super. The part you bolded isn't about Josh and his feelings, it's about the club's decision making process. I'm aware you're friends with Josh. Why are you touchy about the club's decision making though?

I think you’re conflating outcomes with decisions.

To use a poker analogy, you can go all in holding aces against 2-7 and lose. It was the right decision to make the bet, it just didn’t work out.

In Schache’s case it wasn’t as random as that, but every sign that I’m aware of suggested he’d be keen to stay and that he’d be a strong performer. Despite that, he didn’t handle the move well, and we probably contributed to that by positioning him as our saviour. In an area where there is so much uncertainty I think we made the right decision and got unlucky.

 

[POBT]

Madness to suggest that drafting Schache wasn't the right move at the time. A draft selection had never been so obvious.

I wouldn't be surprised if we looked back on the last two years and wondered if we could have done some things better but the initial draft decision was a no-brainer.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I think you’re conflating outcomes with decisions.

In a competitive environment where people are paid good money to bring the club forward, decisions should be valued by their outcome. Should management keep their jobs if they repeatedly make decisions that may seem logical in some senses but fail to deliver results? We know the answer to that one, which is why management were replaced last year.

and we probably contributed to that by positioning him as our saviour.

This is what I mean. Mistakes like this don't bring the club forward. I'm not blaming Josh for that, in case Daniels Riches wants to come out guns blazing again. I'm blaming the club for not getting an accurate read on him and acting accordingly.

 

[Dalions]

Management are not paid to make the popular decision or the media's decision. They're paid to make the right decision. Any criticism given to the club would be obviated if it turned out to be the right decision, one that delivered best results. I'm sure supporters would much prefer to win a flag through decisions they may not have agreed with at the time, than to get the players that they personally rated but aren't conducive to team success.

If you honestly think that the club makes recruiting decisions based off media perception then I am pretty sure you are well and truly off the mark.
He was widely regarded, not only by the media as a top 2 pick in his draft year.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

If you honestly think that the club makes recruiting decisions based off media perception then I am pretty sure you are well and truly off the mark.

Nobody said that, and I don't know why you are bringing up such an idea. I only mentioned the media because the post I was quoting mentioned that the media rated Schache as the best possible pick.

 

[Daniels Riches]

That's super. The part you bolded isn't about Josh and his feelings, it's about the club's decision making process. I'm aware you're friends with Josh. Why are you touchy about the club's decision making though?

Don't think I'm being touchy with the clubs decision making. You seem to have a problem with the fact that we didn't select Clayton Oliver because he was a Lions supporter and 'on his way' to becoming an elite midfielder. Josh was the perfect fit at the time. Unfortunately, circumstances changed and it wasn't to be. But saying that recruiting him in the first place was a terrible mistake is a bit rich. Aside from your obvious love for young Clayton, what are the specific reasons why you believe it was such a terrible mistake to recruit Josh?

 

[Viceregal]

And if we had passed on him 2 years ago and he was picked up by a Vic club and developed awesomely ... we would never have known how the sliding doors (the movie not the idiot) would have turned out - hopefully the decision that 'looked' like the worse one ends up being the better one (also as per the movie).

 

[baaaall!]

It would be cool if Josh came back in 5/6/7 years to ‘finish what he started.’

A man can dream...

 

[luthor]

When we beat the Dogs in the last Round of 2015, we avoided the spoon, thereby "missing out" on Pick 1.

Schache was so universally highly regarded, it was line ball as to whether he or Weitering would be taken Pick 1.

Which led to the fear amongst Lions supporters that Carlton could/would pinch him from under our noses. I can clearly recall a number of media "experts" expressing disbelief that the Lions could have been so "stupid" as to win that last game and therbeby jeopardise our chances of getting Schache, the player that was "meant" for us. (In other words, we were being accused of being naiive and stupid for not tanking)

As it transpired, as draft night drew near, we all started to breathe a little easier when Carlton signalled that they were likely to take Weitering at Pick 1. When they went ahead and took Weitering , there was this general euphoria amongst Lions fans that we ended up getting our man. If we had bypassed Schache and taken Oliver it would have been regarded at the time as one of the most baffling and mind blowing decisions in the club's history

Sometimes a notion has such momentum that it is just impossible not to go with it.

There's no point in attempting to retrospectively point fingers and apportion blame.

As someone said previously, s**t happens!

Let's move on.

 

[Dalions]

Nobody said that, and I don't know why you are bringing up such an idea. I only mentioned the media because the post I was quoting mentioned that the media rated Schache as the best possible pick.

If that is the case we did alright to pick him up, at pick 2.

 

[Gadzorks]

In a competitive environment where people are paid good money to bring the club forward, decisions should be valued by their outcome. Should management keep their jobs if they repeatedly make decisions that may seem logical in some senses but fail to deliver results? We know the answer to that one, which is why management were replaced last year.


This is what I mean. Mistakes like this don't bring the club forward. I'm not blaming Josh for that, in case Daniels Riches wants to come out guns blazing again. I'm blaming the club for not getting an accurate read on him and acting accordingly.

Definately managers should be accountable but there are always things outside of your control when dealing in unknowables. If we drafted at age 21 the system would work better because the players would have significantly more personal maturity and their football pedigree would be be established. Or not.

These kids are potentially great footballers but they are still kids.

Its kinda like farming in nq. You do everything right and a cyclone still wipes you out. In this case our cyclone was josh's inability to settle in qld.

 

[bungalow_bill]

It would be cool if Josh came back in 5/6/7 years to ‘finish what he started.’

A man can dream...

Was thinking the same thing - with some maturity and experience he may want to have another go. Extremely unlikely but he did leave on friendly terms and no bridges were burnt

 

[Johnny Bananas]

But saying that recruiting him in the first place was a terrible mistake is a bit rich. Aside from your obvious love for young Clayton, what are the specific reasons why you believe it was such a terrible mistake to recruit Josh?

Rich how? The club didnt accurately gauge Josh's personality and motivations at the time, as evidenced by them promoting him as a saviour when that kind of pressure was apparently not good for him. If they can't gauge something like that accurately, neither can they gauge if a player will ultimately end up staying. Why do I believe it was a mistake? The results show it to be pretty obvious.

 

[Kevvo]

In a competitive environment where people are paid good money to bring the club forward, decisions should be valued by their outcome. Should management keep their jobs if they repeatedly make decisions that may seem logical in some senses but fail to deliver results? We know the answer to that one, which is why management were replaced last year.


This is what I mean. Mistakes like this don't bring the club forward. I'm not blaming Josh for that, in case Daniels Riches wants to come out guns blazing again. I'm blaming the club for not getting an accurate read on him and acting accordingly.

What proportion of first round picks are successful commensurate with their pick? Without knowing specific figures, I’d expect that it was pretty low. You’d be sacking an awful lot of staff under your approach. Any sensible review of outcomes requires you to consider the context.

 

[BRAB]

Rich how? The club didnt accurately gauge Josh's personality and motivations at the time, as evidenced by them promoting him as a saviour when that kind of pressure was apparently not good for him.

I reckon there might be a lack of positions for recruiters at AFL level that operate purely by hindsight.