The wildcard weekend is just basically saying the Finals would expand to a top 10

[Dazzler9]

Imagine the day when a seventh placed team eventually wins a flag. Oh that's right, that's already happened.

I don't think any finals system is perfect, but I'd be happy for the addition of 9th and 10th which would reduce the chances of a repeat of 2016 (as good as that was and as happy I was to see the Bulldogs win).

7th is not 10th, is it.

I can just about abide a 7th placed team in an 18 team comp winning it. But not 10th.

 

[Back One Out]

9th and 10th should not have a chance to win a flag, [but] I support means to make the path for 7 and 8 harder and longer to do what the Bulldogs did in 2016.

Meh

We've had the current Top 8 system for 19 years and in that time, only ONE team has even reached the Grand Final from outside the Top Four.

Only one team has won the flag from outside the Top 3.

The Bulldogs in 2016 were not a legitimate 7th-placed team. I always knew they were better than that. Easily one of the best teams that Hawthorn played that season. I wasn't shocked in the slightest when they towelled us up in the Semi Final.

It was a remarkably even season in 2016 with 7 premiership contenders but no real stand out champion teams. The 1st-placed Swans were very good, but not great. The Doggies weathered a brutal injury toll just to qualify for the finals. Really, they were a top 4 calibre team. 15 wins would be good enough for 3rd or 4th in most years. They were as good a chance to win the flag as anyone with the extra week's rest after Round 23 and most of their guns in good nick. They won 2 interstate finals and knocked off the reigning premiers en route to the GF. What more did you want for them to prove they were legit?

2016
1. Syd 17-5 151.2
2. Geel 17-5 143.8
3. Haw 17-5 118.6
4. GWS 16-6 143.1
5. Adel 16-6 138.3
6. WCE 16-6 130.0
7. W.B 15-7 115.4
8. NM 12-10 105.2


I actually think it was a good thing that once in 19 years, an underdog team was able to surprise the football world and win the flag from 7th. Otherwise, why bother even having a top 8? The Top 8 system actually worked the way it was supposed to and gave a fighting chance to a deserving team which had won 15 games, but unluckily missed the top 4.



Here's the W/L records of teams who finished 7th (2000-2018)
The Bulldogs were easily the best team to do so. 2016 was an anomaly.

2000 - W.B - 12-10, 103.6
2001 - Syd. - 12-10, 115.7
2002 - NM_ - 12-10, 98.8
2003 - WCE - 12-8-2, 117.4
2004 - WCE - 13-9, 103.8
2005 - Melb - 12-10, 95.8
2006 - Melb - 13-8-1, 109.7
2007 - Syd. - 12-9-1, 119.6
2008 - NM_ - 12-9-1, 97.0
2009 - Carl. - 13-9, 110.5
2010 - Haw - 12-9-1, 110.7
2011 - Syd. - 12-9-1, 109.3
2012 - Freo - 14-8, 115.7
2013 - Port. - 12-10, 102.4
2014 - Ess_ - 12-9-1, 106.3
2015 - Adel. - 13-8, 115.7
2016 - W.B - 15-7, 115.4
2017 - Ess_ - 12-10, 106.5
2018 - GWS - 13-8-1, 114.3





Ladder position of Grand Finalists: (2000-2018)

1st vs 2nd

• 2004 Port vs Bris
• 2007 Geel v Port
• 2008 Geel v Haw
• 2009 St K v Geel
• 2011 Coll v Geel
• 2014 Syd v Haw

1st vs 3rd

• 2000 Ess v Melb
• 2001 Ess v Bris
• 2010 Coll v St K
• 2012 Haw v Syd
• 2013 Haw v Freo
• 2017 Adel v Rich

1st vs 4th

• 2006 WCE v Syd

2nd vs 3rd

• 2003 Coll v Bris
• 2005 WCE v Syd
• 2015 WCE v Haw
• 2018 WCE v Coll

2nd vs 4th

• 2002 Bris v Coll

1st vs 7th

• 2016 Syd v WB

 

[Dazzler9]

Meh

We've had the current Top 8 system for 19 years and in that time, only ONE team has even reached the Grand Final from outside the Top Four.

Only one team has won the flag from outside the Top 3.

The Bulldogs in 2016 were not a legitimate 7th-placed team. I always knew they were better than that. Easily one of the best teams that Hawthorn played that season. I wasn't shocked in the slightest when they towelled us up in the Semi Final.

It was a remarkably even season in 2016 with 7 premiership contenders but no real stand out champion teams. The 1st-placed Swans were very good, but not great. The Doggies weathered a brutal injury toll just to qualify for the finals. Really, they were a top 4 calibre team. 15 wins would be good enough for 3rd or 4th in most years. They were as good a chance to win the flag as anyone with the extra week's rest after Round 23 and most of their guns in good nick. They won 2 interstate finals and knocked off the reigning premiers en route to the GF. What more did you want for them to prove they were legit?

2016
1. Syd 17-5 151.2
2. Geel 17-5 143.8
3. Haw 17-5 118.6
4. GWS 16-6 143.1
5. Adel 16-6 138.3
6. WCE 16-6 130.0
7. W.B 15-7 115.4
8. NM 12-10 105.2


I actually think it was a good thing that once in 19 years, an underdog team was able to surprise the football world and win the flag from 7th. Otherwise, why bother even having a top 8? The Top 8 system actually worked the way it was supposed to and gave a fighting chance to a deserving team which had won 15 games, but unluckily missed the top 4.



Here's the W/L records of teams who finished 7th (2000-2018)
The Bulldogs were easily the best team to do so. 2016 was an anomaly.

2000 - W.B - 12-10, 103.6
2001 - Syd. - 12-10, 115.7
2002 - NM_ - 12-10, 98.8
2003 - WCE - 12-8-2, 117.4
2004 - WCE - 13-9, 103.8
2005 - Melb - 12-10, 95.8
2006 - Melb - 13-8-1, 109.7
2007 - Syd. - 12-9-1, 119.6
2008 - NM_ - 12-9-1, 97.0
2009 - Carl. - 13-9, 110.5
2010 - Haw - 12-9-1, 110.7
2011 - Syd. - 12-9-1, 109.3
2012 - Freo - 14-8, 115.7
2013 - Port. - 12-10, 102.4
2014 - Ess_ - 12-9-1, 106.3
2015 - Adel. - 13-8, 115.7
2016 - W.B - 15-7, 115.4
2017 - Ess_ - 12-10, 106.5
2018 - GWS - 13-8-1, 114.3





Ladder position of Grand Finalists: (2000-2018)

1st vs 2nd

• 2004 Port vs Bris
• 2007 Geel v Port
• 2008 Geel v Haw
• 2009 St K v Geel
• 2011 Coll v Geel
• 2014 Syd v Haw

1st vs 3rd

• 2000 Ess v Melb
• 2001 Ess v Bris
• 2010 Coll v St K
• 2012 Haw v Syd
• 2013 Haw v Freo
• 2017 Adel v Rich

1st vs 4th

• 2006 WCE v Syd

2nd vs 3rd

• 2003 Coll v Bris
• 2005 WCE v Syd
• 2015 WCE v Haw
• 2018 WCE v Coll

2nd vs 4th

• 2002 Bris v Coll

1st vs 7th

• 2016 Syd v WB

Good points, well made

 

[ep2018]

Surreal how even 2016 was. We finished 16-6 and 6th, whilst this year with the same amount of wins we finished 2nd.

 

[Back One Out]

Good points, well made

Regarding the wildcard weekend, I probably should add:

What's the point of making it nigh impossible for the 7th and 8th placed teams? History has shown that nobody outside the Top 4 has much of chance anyway with the current system, so the wildcard weekend would serve no purpose other than the greedy AFL & Channel 7 milking the infinite cash cow (us, the fans) by adding 2 extra pointless finals and maintaining fan interest for an extra week or two for teams who finish 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th.

Let's hope the AFL doesn't further water down their finals series like those NRL idiots have done.

 

[ep2018]

Regarding the wildcard weekend, I probably should add:

What's the point of making it nigh impossible for the 7th and 8th placed teams? History has shown that nobody outside the Top 4 has much of chance anyway with the current system, so the wildcard weekend would serve no purpose other than the greedy AFL & Channel 7 milking the infinite cash cow (us, the fans) by adding 2 extra pointless finals and maintaining fan interest for an extra week or two for teams who finish 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th.

Let's hope the AFL doesn't further water down their finals series like those NRL idiots have done.

The elimination finals are pretty much wildcards as is. And the same week, the top 4 teams play off for the right to host prelim finals.

Finals dont really start until week 2 with the semis imo.

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

I think Gil would like it if he could find a way for all 18 teams to still be in contention for the flag at the end of the H&A season, to maximise revenues.

Be like Gil, be an idiot.

 

[Pessimistic]

Finey said it best. It would be a shit weekend of football. Meh teams playing off

Final 8 is pretty much two final 4s where the winners play off in grand final

So make a final 10, if you have to have one, two final 5s. 1 4 5 7 10 and 2 3 6 8 9

Week1. Bye for 1 and 2. QF 3 plays 6 and 4 plays 5. EF 7 plays 10 and 8 plays 9. Last two losers eliminated

Week2. 1 plays winner 4v5. 2 plays winner 3v6 Loser 3v6 plays winner 8v9 and loser 4v5 plays winner 8v9. 2 teams eliminated

Week3. Loser first game above plays winner fourth game. Loser second game plays winner third game . Two teams eliminated

Week4 winner first game week 2 plays winner second game week 3. Winner second game week 2 plays winner first game week 3 two teams eliminated

Grand final 2 winning teams play off. I think the system would return the teams placed 1 and 2 after home and away into the he grand final more often than current final 8
There’s an extra 4 finals, two f which are extra elimation finals

 

[Pessimistic]

Everyone liked the final 5. But it operated when there was a total of 12 teams who actually played 22 rounds
The equivalent would be at least 20 teams playing 19 rounds, play each other once. Give each team two byes to make it 21 rounds plus 5 weeks finals which is back to the 6 month thing.

Playing each other once is always going to be a bit uneven, but a final 10 would compensate up to a point

 

[Kappa]

When theres 20 teams we should have a wildcard weekend because 7-10, right now the system is fine.

 

[Starburns_]

A wildcard isn’t a wildcard if it’s just 7th v 10th and 8th v 9th.
You need teams to qualify from means other than the ladder. Otherwise every final is technically just a wildcard round up until the GF.
If you had top 6 qualify straight to week 1 of finals then had the next 4 highest percentages qualify, that could be considered a wildcard.
Though the proper system if we wanted wildcards would be this
3 x 6 team conferences (say A, B, C). Play everyone in your conference twice, everyone else once. Top two from each conference qualify straight to finals.
The rest of the teams are ranked on an overall ladder (W). The top 4 teams in that qualify for the wildcard round.

Finals system could be anything you want after that.

Such a conference system is the only scenario where 'wildcards' would make sense.

But with finals as they are, I'd argue that we don't actually need that conference system, nor would such a system necessitate more than 2 wildcards (7 and 8) anyway.

That said, I’m against a wildcard system. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. When was the last time a team won the flag, that shouldn’t have, due to the finals system?

Never.

The finals system is perfect as it is, and it should be somewhat difficult to qualify for, rather than rewarding mediocrity. No need to expand it until the competition expands.

Meh

We've had the current Top 8 system for 19 years and in that time, only ONE team has even reached the Grand Final from outside the Top Four.

Only one team has won the flag from outside the Top 3.

The Bulldogs in 2016 were not a legitimate 7th-placed team. I always knew they were better than that. Easily one of the best teams that Hawthorn played that season. I wasn't shocked in the slightest when they towelled us up in the Semi Final.

It was a remarkably even season in 2016 with 7 premiership contenders but no real stand out champion teams. The 1st-placed Swans were very good, but not great. The Doggies weathered a brutal injury toll just to qualify for the finals. Really, they were a top 4 calibre team. 15 wins would be good enough for 3rd or 4th in most years. They were as good a chance to win the flag as anyone with the extra week's rest after Round 23 and most of their guns in good nick. They won 2 interstate finals and knocked off the reigning premiers en route to the GF. What more did you want for them to prove they were legit?

2016
1. Syd 17-5 151.2
2. Geel 17-5 143.8
3. Haw 17-5 118.6
4. GWS 16-6 143.1
5. Adel 16-6 138.3
6. WCE 16-6 130.0
7. W.B 15-7 115.4
8. NM 12-10 105.2


I actually think it was a good thing that once in 19 years, an underdog team was able to surprise the football world and win the flag from 7th. Otherwise, why bother even having a top 8? The Top 8 system actually worked the way it was supposed to and gave a fighting chance to a deserving team which had won 15 games, but unluckily missed the top 4.



Here's the W/L records of teams who finished 7th (2000-2018)
The Bulldogs were easily the best team to do so. 2016 was an anomaly.

2000 - W.B - 12-10, 103.6
2001 - Syd. - 12-10, 115.7
2002 - NM_ - 12-10, 98.8
2003 - WCE - 12-8-2, 117.4
2004 - WCE - 13-9, 103.8
2005 - Melb - 12-10, 95.8
2006 - Melb - 13-8-1, 109.7
2007 - Syd. - 12-9-1, 119.6
2008 - NM_ - 12-9-1, 97.0
2009 - Carl. - 13-9, 110.5
2010 - Haw - 12-9-1, 110.7
2011 - Syd. - 12-9-1, 109.3
2012 - Freo - 14-8, 115.7
2013 - Port. - 12-10, 102.4
2014 - Ess_ - 12-9-1, 106.3
2015 - Adel. - 13-8, 115.7
2016 - W.B - 15-7, 115.4
2017 - Ess_ - 12-10, 106.5
2018 - GWS - 13-8-1, 114.3





Ladder position of Grand Finalists: (2000-2018)

1st vs 2nd

• 2004 Port vs Bris
• 2007 Geel v Port
• 2008 Geel v Haw
• 2009 St K v Geel
• 2011 Coll v Geel
• 2014 Syd v Haw

1st vs 3rd

• 2000 Ess v Melb
• 2001 Ess v Bris
• 2010 Coll v St K
• 2012 Haw v Syd
• 2013 Haw v Freo
• 2017 Adel v Rich

1st vs 4th

• 2006 WCE v Syd

2nd vs 3rd

• 2003 Coll v Bris
• 2005 WCE v Syd
• 2015 WCE v Haw
• 2018 WCE v Coll

2nd vs 4th

• 2002 Bris v Coll

1st vs 7th

• 2016 Syd v WB

Excellent breakdown of things that should really be the checkmate argument against expanding finals.

 

[SunGirl89]

When was the last time a team won the flag, that shouldn’t have, due to the finals system?

Never.

last team to undeservedly make a grand final - Carlton, 1999 (should have been eliminated in week 1)
last team to undeservedly win a grand final - Adelaide, 1997 (should not have had home semi final)

Although because of such anomalies the finals system was justifiably changed, even though it was more sound mathematically.

 

[SunGirl89]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the possibility, although improbable, of reducing the length of the regular season.

We currently have a 198+9 game season. I'm sure broadcasters would want to keep the season at ~200 games.

That could open up the possibility of extending the final series in one way or another.

A: 18 teams - 1 conference - 17 round season (H or A v each team) = 153 games
B: 20 teams - 2 conferences - 18 round season (H&A v teams in same conference) = 180 games
C: 20 teams - 1 conference - 19 round season (H or A v each team) = 190 games
- each conference has EF+QF - 1SF+2SF - PF - CF (conference final), and then Grand Final

Can definitely see option C happening, if and when 2 extra teams are added, maybe WA3 + SA3/TAS. Only 8 less regular season games than we currently have. Each conference would have 6 finals, and then the conference winners play off in the grand final. 190+(2x6)+1 = 203 games.

 

[Starburns_]

last team to undeservedly make a grand final - Carlton, 1999 (should have been eliminated in week 1)
last team to undeservedly win a grand final - Adelaide, 1997 (should not have had home semi final)

Although because of such anomalies the finals system was justifiably changed, even though it was more sound mathematically.

Firstly, that was a significantly flawed system that has no bearing on things now. Secondly, Carlton weren't the premiership team so they're irrelevant to this discussion. Finally, despite getting a decent break on the semi-final, the Crows beat 3rd and 1st on the ladder (on the road) in the weeks following that. If they didn't deserve it, they would've fallen at one of those hurdles.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the possibility, although improbable, of reducing the length of the regular season.

We currently have a 198+9 game season. I'm sure broadcasters would want to keep the season at ~200 games.

That could open up the possibility of extending the final series in one way or another.

A: 18 teams - 1 conference - 17 round season (H or A v each team) = 153 games
B: 20 teams - 2 conferences - 18 round season (H&A v teams in same conference) = 180 games
C: 20 teams - 1 conference - 19 round season (H or A v each team) = 190 games
- each conference has EF+QF - 1SF+2SF - PF - CF (conference final), and then Grand Final

Can definitely see option C happening, if and when 2 extra teams are added, maybe WA3 + SA3/TAS. Only 8 less regular season games than we currently have. Each conference would have 6 finals, and then the conference winners play off in the grand final. 190+(2x6)+1 = 203 games.

20 teams, 20 games (everyone once + 1 rivalry game), creates 2 more H&A games than we currently have and only one less home game per club. It also means that the league can continue to maintain a single ladder.

 

[SunGirl89]

Firstly, that was a significantly flawed system that has no bearing on things now.

He did not qualify his question by limiting it to the current finals system so my response is valid.

Carlton weren't the premiership team so they're irrelevant to this discussion.

No, they’re not. They denied a team a chance to win a grand final. Their presence ensured that North were unbackable favourites.

Despite getting a decent break on the semi-final, the Crows beat 3rd and 1st on the ladder (on the road) in the weeks following that. If they didn't deserve it, they would've fallen at one of those.

Ridiculous argument. If every team were given a 2nd chance or a 3rd chance, yeah shit might happen. That is not the point. Collingwood might have won the premiership last year if the grand final was best of 3. So what?

 

[Starburns_]

No, they’re not. They denied a team a chance to win a grand final. Their presence ensured that North were unbackable favourites.

If Essendon were good enough they would have flogged an 'undeserving' Carlton team. It's not North's fault that Essendon choked, and it doesn't make them undeserving either.

Ridiculous argument. If every team were given a 2nd chance or a 3rd chance, yeah shit might happen. That is not the point. Collingwood might have won the premiership last year if the grand final was best of 3. So what?

In a best of 3 prelim series, Collingwood probably don't even make the GF, but that doesn't mean they didn't deserve to be there.

You can only beat who is in front of you and by that stage of the season everyone is either a very good side, or has showed their worth by beating multiple good sides. The entire concept of an 'undeserving' premiership side is nuffie logic, it's not like 5th can win the flag despite never playing a top 4 side, it's impossible.

 

[buttermuffs]

I feel like it’s a bit of a silly idea. To me, 5-8 already seems like a bit of a wildcard round in itself. It’s the lower half of the top eight who have to basically play an extra game more than the top four anyway. Making 6-10 play another game on top of that just seems ridiculous.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

When theres 20 teams we should have a wildcard weekend because 7-10, right now the system is fine.

When/If there's 20 teams we still shouldn't have more than six go to "post-season".

 

[Dazzler9]

The beauty of the old top 5 (and top 4) is that in order to win a flag you literally had to beat every team who finished above you on the ladder. The system proposed by Harrythetiger a page or two back was the closest to this system you could get with a top 8, and I fully endorse it. It would require a 5 week finals format, but I would think Gil would be onboard with that ($$).

 

[wagstaff]

Don't know whether already msuggested but wouldn't mind a wildcard format where on the designated week off, 8 plays 9 to remain in the finals.

It gives the Top 7 teams the benefit of the week's break, it gives the rested 5th placed team the benefit of playing an opponent whose already played an intense finals match (and a bonus over teams who finish 6/7).

It also still ensures you have to finish in the top half of the ladder to play finals and ensures there's footy in the week off.