We're a Shit Show - Fagan is a Complete Fraud, We're Rotten to the Core

[ManInTheArena]

I’ve been saying this from the start. The cost in management time and focus is more than cash a lot of the time

The opportunity cost is massive, and boards need to be really careful. I've had boards in strategic planning days get really carried away trying to push the company in multiple directions under the guise of "diversification". What they often don't consider is, a) the amount of work some white board scribbles actually mean for the executive team, and b) the opportunity cost of splitting up the executive team's head into multiple pieces. When we're laying awake at night thinking about what to do next to improve the company, do the board really want multiple competing businesses occupying our heads? What thoughts, and subsequent executions, didn't our core business get because we were sidetracked? I find they often don't think about that when everyone's excited and having a circle jerk on the strategy day, and often the executive team don't either until the rubber hits the road.

The only way to do this successfully is to actually start another company with its own executive team, like Wesfarmers do, for example. Even then, you'd want your first company to be swimming in excellence first, which the AFC is not. And it's really not the sort of organisation to do it anyway. It's not a listed entity with the primary goal of shareholder return, and I don't believe in a company existing to serve another company unless it's a part of a vertical integration.

I really dislike what we're doing at the AFC.

 

[Pugsley]

Time to start microwaving memberships.

 

[ManInTheArena]

To what extent can we starve these frauds by making a boycott of membership? How many members could we plausibly convince to participate in a membership boycott? Or is the 'So Proud/Always Next Year' brigade simply too large?

Posters keep suggesting this, but it won't happen. You might get tens, or hundreds of people boycotting if you're lucky. You won't get thousands like you need, and the reason for that is multiple. The main one being that the vast majority of our members don't know a lot of information, and don't care to. They just want to go along to the football and yell "ball" when it obviously ****ing isn't, sing "Adelaide *clap, *clap, *clap", blame umpires for being biased and hating the Crows, get mad at the coach, go home, and maybe read a bit stuff in the Advertiser about Talia's cat. That's fine, that's what they want to do, and to be honest they're probably happier for it.

 

[Pugsley]

Posters keep suggesting this, but it won't happen. You might get tens, or hundreds of people boycotting if you're lucky. You won't get thousands like you need, and the reason for that is multiple. The main one being that the vast majority of our members don't know a lot of information, and don't care to. They just want to go along to the football and yell "ball" when it obviously ******* isn't, sing "Adelaide *clap, *clap, *clap", blame umpires for being biased and hating the Crows, get mad at the coach, go home, and maybe read a bit stuff in the Advertiser about Talia's cat. That's fine, that's what they want to do, and to be honest they're probably happier for it.

This is a sad fact.

 

[Rotayjay]

Posters keep suggesting this, but it won't happen. You might get tens, or hundreds of people boycotting if you're lucky. You won't get thousands like you need, and the reason for that is multiple. The main one being that the vast majority of our members don't know a lot of information, and don't care to. They just want to go along to the football and yell "ball" when it obviously ******* isn't, sing "Adelaide *clap, *clap, *clap", blame umpires for being biased and hating the Crows, get mad at the coach, go home, and maybe read a bit stuff in the Advertiser about Talia's cat. That's fine, that's what they want to do, and to be honest they're probably happier for it.

If Port supporters are the dumbest in the AFL, are Crows supporters the most naive?

 

[Sanders]

The opportunity cost is massive, and boards need to be really careful. I've had boards in strategic planning days get really carried away trying to push the company in multiple directions under the guise of "diversification". What they often don't consider is, a) the amount of work some white board scribbles actually mean for the executive team, and b) the opportunity cost of splitting up the executive team's head into multiple pieces. When we're laying awake at night thinking about what to do next to improve the company, do the board really want multiple competing businesses occupying our heads? What thoughts, and subsequent executions, didn't our core business get because we were sidetracked? I find they often don't think about that when everyone's excited and having a circle jerk on the strategy day, and often the executive team don't either until the rubber hits the road.

The only way to do this successfully is to actually start another company with its own executive team, like Wesfarmers do, for example. Even then, you'd want your first company to be swimming in excellence first, which the AFC is not. And it's really not the sort of organisation to do it anyway. It's not a listed entity with the primary goal of shareholder return, and I don't believe in a company existing to serve another company unless it's a part of a vertical integration.

I really dislike what we're doing at the AFC.

Agree completely

I’d slightly disagree though on the point about it not being the sort of organisation to become a conglomerate

It’s true we don’t have the scale, the capacity, the learned culture or history of excellence to leverage; all the things you’d normally consider essentials before trying to branch out like this. All of these are things are outside of our nature, they just reflect how good we are. So in that regard I think we shouldn’t do it because we’re not good enough not quite that we are wrong sort of organisation

But that’s splitting hairs

My biggest beef with these new sports investments? The payoff is too small

There is no chance to win big for the stakes involved

The upside just isn’t there

 

[ManInTheArena]

Agree completely

I’d slightly disagree though on the point about it not being the sort of organisation to become a conglomerate

It’s true we don’t have the scale, the capacity, the learned culture or history of excellence to leverage; all the things you’d normally consider essentials before trying to branch out like this. All of these are things are outside of our nature, they just reflect how good we are. So in that regard I think we shouldn’t do it because we’re not good enough not quite that we are wrong sort of organisation

But that’s splitting hairs

My biggest beef with these new sports investments? The payoff is too small

There is no chance to win big for the stakes involved

The upside just isn’t there

My issue with it, other than that we don't have the skillset or resources to pull it off, is that the AFC is a non profit. Every company needs a core purpose and Wesfarmers' is literally "To provide a satisfactory return to shareholders.". At least they're honest. The AFC's should be to win premierships so it can't be the head of a conglomerate. If it were then the baseball and eSports teams now only serve the AFC's mission, which is really demotivating for a sporting team. Imagine if the AFC was owned by Manchester United, and we were only in existence to help them win, and money and resources went there to achieve that. It's a recipe for disaster and a complication of core purposes that I don't think can work. The only way it could work would be to have a holding organisation that has a different core purpose. What though? "To run the most successful sporting organisations in the world", maybe? Regardless, we agree we don't have the skillset, and we don't have the resources for four executive teams.

 

[Its not the coach]

It was clear to me Fagan was no good in 2016 when in round 23 the floating round the afl offerd to give us a monday night game against west coast, which would have gave us a much needed 8 day break coming off a tough showdown win and prized 2nd spot on the ladder. But Fagan being a goose and knowing nothing about football insisted we get the friday night game, he got his way west coast ran all over us because we were tired. we dropped from 2nd to 5th chance blown. Just sums our pathetic putrid club up really.choosing a one off friday night lights ahead of giving us the best chance of ultimate success. Even half decent clubs would have been fighting for the longer break especialy with the week off the following week. I couldnt believe it at the time and when i hear fagans name i think of that.

 

[ManInTheArena]

If Port supporters are the dumbest in the AFL, are Crows supporters the most naive?

I think you could say any AFL club has the same.

 

[Sanders]

My issue with it, other than that we don't have the skillset or resources to pull it off, is that the AFC is a non profit. Every company needs a core purpose and Wesfarmers' is literally "To provide a satisfactory return to shareholders.". At least they're honest. The AFC's should be to win premierships so it can't be the head of a conglomerate. If it were then the baseball and eSports teams now only serve the AFC's mission, which is really demotivating for a sporting team. Imagine if the AFC was owned by Manchester United, and we were only in existence to help them win, and money and resources went there to achieve that. It's a recipe for disaster and a complication of core purposes that I don't think can work. The only way it could work would be to have a holding organisation that has a different core purpose. What though? "To run the most successful sporting organisations in the world", maybe? Regardless, we agree we don't have the skillset, and we don't have the resources for four executive teams.

You’re probably right about the holding company, but even that needs to be properly resourced. Which we don’t have

But back to type (and it is the faintest of split hairs) Fenway sports group owns Boston Red Sox and Liverpool FC, very successfully, trying to leverage expertise and know how. For profit

Barcelona FC runs teams in basketball, rugby, handball, ice hockey etc. They too leverage their expertise and know how. They are a fan owned entity that doesn’t distribute profit or have shareholders

It can be done, if you have expertise and know how to leverage. We don’t

We want these other ventures to generate money to support AFC, which as you say must eventually be demotivating for the subsidiary teams themselves

So I return to: we could if we were good enough, we are not

And they aren’t worth it even if we were, which again we are not

 

[ManInTheArena]

You’re probably right about the holding company, but even that needs to be properly resourced. Which we don’t have

But back to type (and it is the faintest of split hairs) Fenway sports group owns Boston Red Sox and Liverpool FC, very successfully, trying to leverage expertise and know how. For profit

Barcelona FC runs teams in basketball, rugby, handball, ice hockey etc. They too leverage their expertise and know how. They are a fan owned entity that doesn’t distribute profit or have shareholders

It can be done, if you have expertise and know how to leverage. We don’t

We want these other ventures to generate money to support AFC, which as you say must eventually be demotivating for the subsidiary teams themselves

So I return to: we could if we were good enough, we are not

And they aren’t worth it even if we were, which again we are not

I take it those organisations are where they got the idea, at the same time as seriously overrating themselves. Add in a bunch of whiteboard scribbles and we have the AFC of today.

 

[Sanders]

I take it those organisations are where they got the idea, at the same time as seriously overrating themselves. Add in a bunch of whiteboard scribbles and we have the AFC of today.

Bang on

 

[ThePrideOf]

The board currently consists of 3 old school bankers, 1 politician, 1 SAPOL HR person, 1 serial board member, 2 footy players and a lawyer...

I am sorry... there is no one here that knows innovation if it hit them with a bat!

The club cant stay ahead of its competition if it cant innovate and re-invent itself and position itself into a market leader.

The whole club is old school... from the board down...

It will never inject youth or new thinking when the nursing home board is still around.

Any up and coming business people who are part of innovative and disruptive thought/philosophies are not welcome at AFC

 

[ManInTheArena]

I worked for a board once that was the shittest board. They did an internal board review and the results came out as they were an excellent board! I think that's one of the only times my face has been completely transparent in a board meeting. I looked on in astonishment that some of these people literally believed they were excellent board members and had an excellent board. That is the Dunning Krueger effect in its full glory. I got rid of them eventually and re-engineered the whole board. I think the AFC's board is about half way to what that board was and what it ended up. We have a half good board that doesn't know what it doesn't know, or isn't willing to know, or both.

 

[ManInTheArena]

The board currently consists of 3 old school bankers, 1 politician, 1 SAPOL HR person, 1 serial board member, 2 footy players and a lawyer...

I am sorry... there is no one here that knows innovation if it hit them with a bat!

The club cant stay ahead of its competition if it cant innovate and re-invent itself and position itself into a market leader.

The whole club is old school... from the board down...

It will never inject youth or new thinking when the nursing home board is still around.

Any up and coming business people who are part of innovative and disruptive thought/philosophies are not welcome at AFC

Exactly. The skills mix and diversity (not just gender) is horibble. It's the first indication from the outside that they don't know what excellence in governance is.

 

[jaytex]

Posters keep suggesting this, but it won't happen. You might get tens, or hundreds of people boycotting if you're lucky. You won't get thousands like you need, and the reason for that is multiple. The main one being that the vast majority of our members don't know a lot of information, and don't care to. They just want to go along to the football and yell "ball" when it obviously ******* isn't, sing "Adelaide *clap, *clap, *clap", blame umpires for being biased and hating the Crows, get mad at the coach, go home, and maybe read a bit stuff in the Advertiser about Talia's cat. That's fine, that's what they want to do, and to be honest they're probably happier for it.

I for one was certainly much happier before I discovered BigFooty was a thing.

Googling "why was Sando sacked?!" all those years ago was the beginning of the end for me.

 

[ad victoriam]

To what extent can we starve these frauds by making a boycott of membership? How many members could we plausibly convince to participate in a membership boycott? Or is the 'So Proud/Always Next Year' brigade simply too large?

Rather than a stupid boycott, wouldn't it be better showing at the AGM and voicing your concerns, Would paid up member fronting Head Office and asking question work better, Not attacking or abusing as most of the worker are not responsible for the team action on the field.
All I see in wingeing supporters would are more willing to throw the membership away than getting of the arse and do anything constructed.

Think about with a waiting list as big as the Crows have you stupid boycott would not work.
Yes I know a bunch of the BF lifers will now attack, But how about getting off your arse and supporting the club, and if that means change then push for it, Turn up at the club voice your dislike, Voice your dislike thru our elected members in Rod Jameson and Kym Ryder.

Can almost guarantee the Rod Jameson get voted in again this year, due to a lack of supporter actually voting, The same supporters who don't vote but bitterly complain about the direction of the club.

But yea let have a membership Boycott that will fix the issues, even if it cripples the club.

 

[Samcro24]

Rather than a stupid boycott, wouldn't it be better showing at the AGM and voicing your concerns, Would paid up member fronting Head Office and asking question work better, Not attacking or abusing as most of the worker are not responsible for the team action on the field.
All I see in wingeing supporters would are more willing to throw the membership away than getting of the arse and do anything constructed.

Think about with a waiting list as big as the Crows have you stupid boycott would not work.
Yes I know a bunch of the BF lifers will now attack, But how about getting off your arse and supporting the club, and if that means change then push for it, Turn up at the club voice your dislike, Voice your dislike thru our elected members in Rod Jameson and Kym Ryder.

Can almost guarantee the Rod Jameson get voted in again this year, due to a lack of supporter actually voting, The same supporters who don't vote but bitterly complain about the direction of the club.

But yea let have a membership Boycott that will fix the issues, even if it cripples the club.

So is it pointless because of the waiting list or will it cripple the club? Can’t be both I wouldn’t have thought.

I tend to agree though, it’s not going to do much unless we could arrange for 20-30k to not rock up one week or get everyone to not buy anything at AO. They need some sort of mass statement of dissatisfaction, and show of power. A threat to the bottom line is the only thing that motivates them, other than having to play second fiddle to pear.

And that’s the problem as others have pointed out. Most wont know/care. You only have to look at social media when someone is melting on the crows page in the aftermath of a diabolical loss. Some happy clappers bob up with, “oh you so called supporters need to pull your head in and support the lovely boys...”

Then all you have is what seems to be a small but vocal element of the supporter base that is pissed off. It’s easily waved off by the club. They even have a word for them.

“Agitators”

 

[mattymac]

 

[GreyCrow]

So is it pointless because of the waiting list or will it cripple the club? Can’t be both I wouldn’t have thought.

I tend to agree though, it’s not going to do much unless we could arrange for 20-30k to not rock up one week or get everyone to not buy anything at AO. They need some sort of mass statement of dissatisfaction, and show of power. A threat to the bottom line is the only thing that motivates them, other than having to play second fiddle to pear.

And that’s the problem as others have pointed out. Most wont know/care. You only have to look at social media when someone is melting on the crows page in the aftermath of a diabolical loss. Some happy clappers bob up with, “oh you so called supporters need to pull your head in and support the lovely boys...”

Then all you have is what seems to be a small but vocal element of the supporter base that is pissed off. It’s easily waved off by the club. They even have a word for them.

“Agitators”

Kris Massie likes this

 

[ad victoriam]

So is it pointless because of the waiting list or will it cripple the club? Can’t be both I wouldn’t have thought.

I tend to agree though, it’s not going to do much unless we could arrange for 20-30k to not rock up one week or get everyone to not buy anything at AO. They need some sort of mass statement of dissatisfaction, and show of power. A threat to the bottom line is the only thing that motivates them, other than having to play second fiddle to pear.

And that’s the problem as others have pointed out. Most wont know/care. You only have to look at social media when someone is melting on the crows page in the aftermath of a diabolical loss. Some happy clappers bob up with, “oh you so called supporters need to pull your head in and support the lovely boys...”

Then all you have is what seems to be a small but vocal element of the supporter base that is pissed off. It’s easily waved off by the club. They even have a word for them.

“Agitators”

Top point - It can be both, The waiting list will cover the loss of membership, but the loss could also cause sponsors to drop off and we become Port.

Boycott's don't always work they tend to create more problems than they solve. Most time the end result will end up worse than before and that may be the best case scenario with some having a more devastating effect
Such as a boycott of buying food and beverages at AO, Sound good well-meaning due to high prices but their response may be to ban drinks and food being brought into the stadium.

What does surprise me is we are talking about an Old school approach (boycotts) in Modern society, and yet we as a supporter group are so disjointed we cannot use modern tech to push a point,
Why is there not 1or 2 major pushes on Facebook or Twitter, instead we have hundreds all saying the same thing but pulling in different directions.

Most Crows supporters want to win, And most want some changes, With some going overboard and others pretending all is OK.
Perfect for the Media, not for the Club. who need constructive criticism from its members not the bullshit blame game which doe not achieve anything.

 

[Samcro24]

Top point - It can be both, The waiting list will cover the loss of membership, but the loss could also cause sponsors to drop off and we become Port.

Boycott's don't always work they tend to create more problems than they solve. Most time the end result will end up worse than before and that may be the best case scenario with some having a more devastating effect
Such as a boycott of buying food and beverages at AO, Sound good well-meaning due to high prices but their response may be to ban drinks and food being brought into the stadium.

What does surprise me is we are talking about an Old school approach (boycotts) in Modern society, and yet we as a supporter group are so disjointed we cannot use modern tech to push a point,
Why is there not 1or 2 major pushes on Facebook or Twitter, instead we have hundreds all saying the same thing but pulling in different directions.

Most Crows supporters want to win, And most want some changes, With some going overboard and others pretending all is OK.
Perfect for the Media, not for the Club. who need constructive criticism from its members not the bullshit blame game which doe not achieve anything.

I think the issue is - whatever the approach - there just wont be enough people. Too many happy clappers, and casual fans.

The club survived the noise of Tippettgate, & the mind camp. The only thing that ever lights a fire under their arses is a prosperous pear.

 

[Jarman3]

Most Crows supporters want to win, And most want some changes, With some going overboard and others pretending all is OK.
Perfect for the Media, not for the Club. who need constructive criticism from its members not the bullshit blame game which doe not achieve anything.

What I want is some fresh air in the place. There are too many people that have been there too long and have got too comfortable. We need new faces and new voices and new ideas in the admin and coaching departments. That doesn't mean you throw out every single person in the club, but it does mean you at least LOOK at them all. Anybody who has been there more than 5 years needs to be able to justify their position - "if you haven't been able to contribute to us winning a flag in the 5+ years you've already had, why should we believe you'll be able to do it at all?". I think that would be a difficult question for a lot of them to answer.

But the problem then comes down to who do you replace them with? There's a reason that just about every single person on the coaching / admin side are from South Australia (and mostly with a Crows background) - because it's bloody hard to prise good people out of Melbourne because any time one of them becomes available, he has any number of other Melbourne clubs more than willing to take him on without requiring him to uproot his family and move to Adelaide.

Our best bet is probably to try and pick off somebody decent from WA / Qld / NSW where there are fewer options. But we'll probably end up getting Hird because he'll be desperate enough for a job that he'll be willing to move, and no Melbourne club will touch him because they have enough other options available that they don't need to take on that kind of headache.

 

[ad victoriam]

I think the issue is - whatever the approach - there just wont be enough people. Too many happy clappers, and casual fans.

The club survived the noise of Tippettgate, & the mind camp. The only thing that ever lights a fire under their arses is a prosperous pear.

The Club did not survive the noise from Tippertgate, but I not going to get into a discussion on that, Look at the turnover after that,
Re the mind Camp, look closer some good ins and a couple of outs with one forced to change his ways who may be out when his contract expires this year.

 

[Crowboto]

To what extent can we starve these frauds by making a boycott of membership? How many members could we plausibly convince to participate in a membership boycott? Or is the 'So Proud/Always Next Year' brigade simply too large?

Too many sheep my friend, too many sheep.