Most overrated player in the AFL currently?

[Blightys Barrel]

I think going back Carlton’s Wayne “Dominator” Johnson was a player built for finals. Played in 4 winning GF’s late 70’s/80’s. No stats to show for here, but was a vital cog in that era for the Blues.

 

[g_TRAIN]

Josh Battle

24

Josh Battle

Age

27

Ht

193cm

Wt

93kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.9

3star

K

9.0

3star

HB

3.9

3star

M

5.0

5star

T

2.4

4star

MG

196.8

3star

D

11.0

3star

K

7.3

3star

HB

3.8

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

1.8

3star

MG

142.8

3star

D

10.8

3star

K

6.2

3star

HB

4.6

4star

M

3.4

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

175.6

3star

, he's a very good player who was underrated last year and overrated this year.

Statistically he was better last year.

 

[Linda Lovelace]

It was Draper while with Essendon and remains draper.

This is a good call. There's silly shitf*ghts all over the thread about great players or players a lot of people already recognize as overrated.

But the real sweet spot for being overrated is to be a mediocre player with a recognisable face in a struggling club that somehow became considered borderline elite. Nobody cares enough about you to deep dive into how sh*t you really are, so the vague, false perception of your abilities just persists.

Him being overrated will pay off massively if you guys can get band 1 compo out of it.

 

[Mr Meow]

Can't forget his current coach in the September comparisons (who I believe is one of the most underrated players in finals history) but is also far more comparable as a player. Here's one of his 7 game finals stretches (2014 and 2015):

2014 QF vs Geelong - 36 touches, 6 clearances, 4 goal assists - clear best on ground
2014 PF vs Port - 26 touches, 4 clearances, 8 tackles - top 3 on field
2014 GF vs Syd - 33 touches, 7 clearances (including all 5 centre clearances in the 2nd term when Hawthorn blew the game open), 9 tackles - unlucky runner up in the Norm Smith (a performance that would have won in most other years).

Named best finals player at the premiers.

2015 QF vs West Coast - 35 touches (#1 on ground) and 10 clearances - clear BOG in a loss.
2015 SF vs Adelaide - 33 touches (#1), 4 clearances - one of the best on ground
2015 PF vs Freo - 35 touches (#1), 5 clearances - BOG
2015 GF vs West Coast - 34 touches (#1), 6 clearances, 4 tackles (2 assists) - unlucky runner up in the Norm Smith.

Named best finals player at the premiers again and comfortably holds the record for most disposals in a final series.

P.S.- His next final he had another 30 against Geelong and just before (2nd last final prior to) the above streak - he had 38 (and 11 clearances) to be clear BOG in the "Kennett curse" game.

It's a shame the Ayers Medal didn't exist earlier as I think it would be great to better compare the finals credentials of past players - I think Mitchell would be viewed differently given I he averaged 29 disposals in finals (I think the highest in history?) with exceptional ball use, as well as averaging 6 clearances, 11 contested possessions, 4 tackles, etc - I think he may have the most finals BOG's in history (albeit with no Ayers votes to back it up).

Selwood had 31 disposals, 3 goals, 3 goal assists and 9 clearances in the 2014 QF. Clear BOG but his teammates were smashed.

The PF that year I had Roughead, Langford, Hodge, Gray and Boak ahead. Possibly a couple of others.

Generally though I agree with your point on Mitchell and finals of that era. The mayo just got slathered on a bit too much. Most, but not all of his high disposal games were dominant.

 

[north_lad]

This is a good call. There's silly shitf*ghts all over the thread about great players or players a lot of people already recognize as overrated.

But the real sweet spot for being overrated is to be a mediocre player with a recognisable face in a struggling club that somehow became considered borderline elite. Nobody cares enough about you to deep dive into how sh*t you really are, so the vague, false perception of your abilities just persists.

Him being overrated will pay off massively if you guys can get band 1 compo out of it.

He may have a rude lid and a shit haircut but the fact remains he can't kick a ****ing ball

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Selwood had 31 disposals, 3 goals, 3 goal assists and 9 clearances in the 2014 QF. Clear BOG but his teammates were smashed.

The PF that year I had Roughead, Langford, Hodge, Gray and Boak ahead. Possibly a couple of others.

Generally though I agree with your point on Mitchell and finals of that era. The mayo just got slathered on a bit too much. Most, but not all of his high disposal games were dominant.

Fair enough. This is why we need Ayers votes - to actually be able to compare and see. Still, even most Hawthorn supporters consider Hodge the finals specialist and Mitchell the home and away specialist. Mitchell is never really brought up as one of the great finals players when I would have him at the very top end (of all players). He was one that copped the hard tags from the likes of Ling, Crowley, etc and still averaged 29 touches at nearly 80% in finals as an inside mid - and the best big game player in an all time team. People remember the Norm Smith medallists but not the guys that dominated the finals that got them there - with Mitchell also unlucky enough to finish runner up in the Normie twice in a row (with games that would have won it in plenty of other years). Would have no doubt won the Ayers medal back to back (and picked up a stack of votes in other years too) and would be remembered differently accordingly.

MY memory of the 2014 QF is that Selwood was best on in the first half (Mitchell second) when the game was still close (from memory scores level at half time?). Selwood kicked his 3rd early in the 3rd quarter to give Geelong the lead and I thought "oh no, here we go again". Fron that point on, however, Mitchell took control of the midfield and set up a number of goals as Hawthorn ran away with it to win by 40 odd points. My memory is that Selwood was pretty quiet in the latter stages of that game when Hawthorn took over halfway through the third. Mitchell finished with 36 touches at a staggering 81% playing inside, including 19 kicks and 29 effective disposals. Don't think they had score involvements back in the day but Mitchell was involved in everything, especially when Hawthorn surged late to win it. I would have had Mitchell first and Selwood second as the clear two best players (especially with a 40 point win) but I do note the game was 11 years ago (and Selwood's stat line is indeed impressive - you could go either way).

(You might be right about the prelim - it was my only final I didn't watch at the ground (overseas). I recall being suprised how much of the footy Langford was winning but being worried about his use and decision making, especially late. Don't remember Gray having a big say really (and was opposed to Langford- who beat him) but certainly Roughie, Hodge and Boak were the others in the mix).

 

[Mr Meow]

Fair enough. This is why we need Ayers votes - to actually be able to compare and see. Still, even most Hawthorn supporters consider Hodge the finals specialist and Mitchell the home and away specialist. Mitchell is never really brought up as one of the great finals players when I would have him at the very top end. He was one that copped the hard tags from the likes of Ling, Crowley, etc and still averaged 29 touches at nearly 80% as an inside mid - and the best player in an all time team. People remember the Norm Smith medallists but not the guys that dominated the finals that got them there - with Mitchell also unlucky enough to finish runner up in the Normie twice in a row (with games that would have won it in plenty of other years). Would have now doubt won the Ayers medal back to back (and picked up a stack of votes in other years too) and would be remembered differently accordingly.

MY memory of the 2014 QF is that Selwood was best on in the first half (Mitchell second) when the game was still close (from memory scores level at half time?). Selwood kicked his 3rd early in the 3rd quarter to give Geelong the lead and I thought "oh no, here we go again". Fron that point on, however, Mitchell took control of the midfield and set up a number of goals as Hawthorn ran away with it to win by 40 odd points. My memory is that Selwood was pretty quiet in the latter stages of that game when Hawthorn took over halfway through the third. Mitchell finished with 36 touches at a staggering 81% playing inside, including 19 kicks and 29 effective disposals. Don't think they had score involvements back in the day but Mitchell was involved in everything, especially when Hawthorn surged late to win it. I would have had Mitchell first and Selwood second as the clear two best players (especially with a 40 point win) but I do note the game was 11 years ago (and Selwood's stat line is impressive).

(You might be right about the prelim - it was my only final I didn't watch at the ground (overseas). I recall being suprised how much of the footy Langford was winning but being worried about his use and decision making, especially late. Don't remember Gray having a big say really (and was opposed to Langford- who beat him) but certainly Roughie, Hodge and Boak were the others in the mix).

It is really, really hard to star in finals where your team are overwhelmed and belted. A few examples here and there, I would point to Selwood's being one of the strongest in that scenario this century. Winners are grinners though, especially when the margin blows out and thus it wouldn't surprise me if Mitchell got 10 votes with what was in my opinion a slightly lesser performance.

It's a funny one with finals. If your team is the best around it's easier to star but at the same time starring performances do drive that dominance. Dangerfield was pushing shit up hill in several losing 2016-2021 finals (but besides the odd game or memorable stuff up was he actually less than stellar?) and then at half his powers he dominates 2022 with all the votes - no surprise it was when the Cats were the best team going around.

If you look at strong finals performers this century you will generally just defer to the best handful of players (maybe the odd surprise) from the 4 dynasty teams. Less so players from the almost sides or one off flag teams.

Anyway just some general musings but I agree Mitchell was an outstanding finals performer. Bartel didn't dominate disposal counts as much but is probably our like for like big game performer like (Ablett simply starred as he always did). Hodge was too, but like you said got more recognition.

 

[Guardian Hawk]

It is really, really hard to star in finals where your team are overwhelmed and belted. A few examples here and there, I would point to Selwood's being one of the strongest in that scenario this century. Winners are grinners though, especially when the margin blows out and thus it wouldn't surprise me if Mitchell got 10 votes with what was in my opinion a slightly lesser performance.

It's a funny one with finals. If your team is the best around it's easier to star but at the same time starring performances do drive that dominance. Dangerfield was pushing shit up hill in several losing 2016-2021 finals (but besides the odd game or memorable stuff up was he actually less than stellar?) and then at half his powers he dominates 2022 with all the votes - no surprise it was when the Cats were the best team going around.

If you look at strong finals performers this century you will generally just defer to the best handful of players (maybe the odd surprise) from the 4 dynasty teams. Less so players from the almost sides or one off flag teams.

Anyway just some general musings but I agree Mitchell was an outstanding finals performer. Bartel didn't dominate disposal counts as much but is probably our like for like big game performer like (Ablett simply starred as he always did). Hodge was too, but like you said got more recognition.

I actually think Bartel is more similar to Hodge. Good, versatile player that could cruise at times during the season (but do any job required of him) and then step up massively to have a big influence in September, especially in Grand Finals. Rewarded with a Norm Smith and generally recognised as a 'big game' player.

Ablett and Mitchell are more equivalent. Consistent elite performances throughout the whole season as the team's best mid/player that continues into finals (and with Mitchell rising to an even higher level, noting Ablett's level was so high to begin with, there was not really any higher to go for him). No Norm Smiths despite a swathe of elite finals (and Grand Finals).

Dangerfield is a tricky one. Definately had some elite finals over the journey and unfairly maligned at times when Geelong has failed to progress and he has done his bit. His 2016 and 2017 finals series were both very, very good. Even in 2019, his 2 best finals were the ones Geelong lost. He has, however, sometimes had finals where he has just tried to do a bit too much. His usual play is to burst from the stoppage and gain metres with a long kick and it's actually very valuable. Sometimes the criticism of ineffective disposal has been unfair as it is the way he usually plays (to a high standard) but when you lose finals against good opposition, those moments are replayed and remembered. However, the day he had 12 clangers against Melbourne was actually pretty costly. As were the 7 he had against Collingwood. He had 9 against Richmond in 2017 - and their supporters love to pay him out or some reason -but I actually thought he was still very good that day (The Vlastuin incident in 2020 probably adds fuel to that fire but my view is it was a total accident in the play). A mixed bag for Danger but overall a good finals record with plenty of great games - and a better finals performer than people give him credit for (which admittedly has died down since 2022).

 

[Mr Meow]

I actually think Bartel is more similar to Hodge. Good, versatile player that could cruise at times during the season (but do any job required of him) and then step up massively to have a big influence in September, especially in Grand Finals. Rewarded with a Norm Smith and generally recognised as a 'big game' player.

Ablett and Mitchell are more equivalent. Consistent elite performances throughout the whole season as the team's best mid/player that continues into finals (and with Mitchell rising to an even higher level, noting Ablett's level was so high to begin with, there was not really any higher to go for him). No Norm Smiths despite a swathe of elite finals (and Grand Finals).

Dangerfield is a tricky one. Definately had some elite finals over the journey and unfairly maligned at times when Geelong has failed to progress and he has done his bit. His 2016 and 2017 finals series were both very, very good. Even in 2019, his 2 best finals were the ones Geelong lost. He has, however, sometimes had finals where he has just tried to do a bit too much. His usual play is to burst from the stoppage and gain metres with a long kick and it's actually very valuable. Sometimes the criticism of ineffective disposal has been unfair as it is the way he usually plays (to a high standard) but when you lose finals against good opposition, those moments are replayed and remembered. However, the day he had 12 clangers against Melbourne was actually pretty costly. As were the 7 he had against Collingwood. He had 9 against Richmond in 2017 - and their supporters love to pay him out or some reason -but I actually thought he was still very good that day (The Vlastuin incident in 2020 probably adds fuel to that fire but my view is it was a total accident in the play). A mixed bag for Danger but overall a good finals record with plenty of great games - and a better finals performer than people give him credit for (which admittedly has died down since 2022).

Fair points.

Finals weeks I've been popping on extended highlights (20+ minutes) of a lot of Geelong finals of the Scott era - including losing ones because I must be a masochist.

What's abundantly clear as those Cats sides were their inability to win the chaotic ground ball + intense pressure game of finals football at either end of the ground. Our old, lumbering defence of veterans sadly got exposed as they reached the end of their careers. The side lacked players with real pace and agility, who could apply and withstand the pressure at that level.

How that wraps into Dangerfield is I didn't see the Geelong primary midfielders as being a major issue. Danger has always turned the ball over a fair bit but been damaging with the rest of his play. We simply didn't have great ground level forwards, surging wingmen or a second tall target to make the most of his territory gains. Hence the ball slingshotted back chaos style and our slow defence were leaky.

Those sides also found little space and the chain reaction of that meant everyone was under the pump. Some of Duncan's errors were baffling given how composed he usually was. Mistakes and fumbles become contagious. The dynasty sides this century were the opposite, whereby that insane pressure doesn't build up and there's a much better synergy. Easier to play well and be high impact in that scenario.

Apologies for this big tangent but it does have relevance when discussing players finals performances and some of their missteps when their side has been swarmed.

 

[TheFourPillars]

Josh Battle, he's a very good player who was underrated last year and overrated this year.

Statistically he was better last year.

Aah yes statistics. Given the way u waxed it in ure backline. Is it something surprising? Its not just about possessions.

 

[g_TRAIN]

Aah yes statistics. Given the way u waxed it in ure backline. Is it something surprising? Its not just about possessions.

I've watched every game he's played this year and last year. Have you?

 

[TheFourPillars]

I've watched every game he's played this year and last year. Have you?

No, I haven't watched every game St Killda played last year. However, last year you were one of the most defensively dour teams. I think if you look at how much time the ball spent in the back half when you were in possession you will get a clear indication as to why he was statistically better last year.

 

[Soggy2112]

It is really, really hard to star in finals where your team are overwhelmed and belted. A few examples here and there, I would point to Selwood's being one of the strongest in that scenario this century. Winners are grinners though, especially when the margin blows out and thus it wouldn't surprise me if Mitchell got 10 votes with what was in my opinion a slightly lesser performance.

It's a funny one with finals. If your team is the best around it's easier to star but at the same time starring performances do drive that dominance. Dangerfield was pushing shit up hill in several losing 2016-2021 finals (but besides the odd game or memorable stuff up was he actually less than stellar?) and then at half his powers he dominates 2022 with all the votes - no surprise it was when the Cats were the best team going around.

If you look at strong finals performers this century you will generally just defer to the best handful of players (maybe the odd surprise) from the 4 dynasty teams. Less so players from the almost sides or one off flag teams.

Anyway just some general musings but I agree Mitchell was an outstanding finals performer. Bartel didn't dominate disposal counts as much but is probably our like for like big game performer like (Ablett simply starred as he always did). Hodge was too, but like you said got more recognition.

It’s a good point you make about Dangerfield and his finals record.

In 2015 he starred in a 74 point elimination final loss (his last game for us). No one will ever remember that though. An interesting comparison is that Hodge had 24 and 4 in that game which adds to his well deserved finals legacy. However, I don’t think Dangerfield was any less effective in finals, he just didn’t play in teams that performed as well.

 

[g_TRAIN]

No, I haven't watched every game St Killda played last year. However, last year you were one of the most defensively dour teams. I think if you look at how much time the ball spent in the back half when you were in possession you will get a clear indication as to why he was statistically better last year.

I think if you had watched him last year you would notice the difference was really quite minimal.

He was really good last year as he was this year. He was slightly more attacking this year.

He was criminally underrated last year. His step up if you believe there was one this year was minimal at best.

 

[TheFourPillars]

I think if you had watched him last year you would notice the difference was really quite minimal.

He was really good last year as he was this year. He was slightly more attacking this year.

He was criminally underrated last year. His step up if you believe there was one this year was minimal at best.

Oh don't get me wrong mate, you are right he was a damn good player at St Kilda it's why we chased him.

 

[thistimeforsure]

Yeah but he’s never kicked over the mark apparently. Whatever that means

Does seem to get a bit more leeway than other players about where he can play on from after a free kick or mark

 

[WilloTree]

Jeepers. A lot of talk about Jai Newcombe.

Good player, but to live up to the hype now he has to win the Brownlow...

...twice...

...on the same night...

...while playing Rachmaninoff...

...with one hand...

 

[TheUnicorn]

Weddle / Newcombe

 

[Wish Wellingtons]

Josh Weddell

 

[matthew_s]

Surely Watson comes back into the equation?

 

[TheUnicorn]

Surely Watson comes back into the equation?

Nah, he’s a kid who copped a hard tag and hawthorn could barely get a clearance out the guts all night. I hate hawthorn and all their ducking little grubs but Watson was the least of their problems tonight.

 

[MisterMarcus]

Not Dangerfield......

 

[caveman72]

The Wizard Watson. nothing magical about his performance tonight. Makes Howard Wolowitz look like Merlin. Hawks have filed a missing persons report

 

[Wish Wellingtons]

The Wizard Watson. nothing magical about his performance tonight. Makes Howard Wolowitz look like Merlin. Hawks have filed a missing persons report

Vanishing act second to none.

 

[caveman72]

Nah, he’s a kid who copped a hard tag and hawthorn could barely get a clearance out the guts all night. I hate hawthorn and all their ducking little grubs but Watson was the least of their problems tonight.

Needs to pull his ego in a bit. Only one true Wizard in the AFL and he played for Melbourne