Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder: This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread. Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that. Thanks.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

Thread rules update:

From this point if you're going to make a connection between Islam and the crime rate, you need to demonstrate causation in your post. If you do not, I'm going to infract you for the inherent racism in the position you're taking.

 

[demondavey]

In Turkey?

There's an awful lot to protest about, and protest isn't heard by the ruling classes there. When you don't give the lower classes something to hope for or share the wealth of society with them, they're gonna do this sort of thing. It's easier by far to radicalise already desperate people.

The other side of it too is, when Turkey tells outsiders that they've captured 115ish ISIS fighters across a myriad of raids, do you believe them? As in, do you believe a state that has serious corruption, antidemocratic and imperialistic problems and has lied about them consistently isn't flavouring the truth at least a little?

I don't know, but I feel like when we get information out of Ergodan's state apparatus we're not really told the whole story.

So it is him telling Chris Scott to change the teams at the last minute? I knew he was dirty

 

[demondavey]

So true, poor people throughout the world just go "I may aswell blow up some people trying to celebrate Christmas". It's inevitable and no further explanation needed.

You’ve simplified a serious topic. Germans with no hope who were on their knees voted for Adolf Hitler.

Desperate people are radicalised all the time. ISIS has used social media to recruit, as has and as does the NSN. Educated people with hope tend not to waste their lives joining fringe ideologies that want to murder people.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Does it matter?

Yeah I think it does, a lot. Not like the burqa isn’t something of a lightning rod for opposing camps in multicultural western society.

 

[demondavey]

Yeah I think it does, a lot. Not like the burqa isn’t something of a lightning rod for opposing camps in multicultural western society.

Isn’t that their issue though? Opposing camps? I mean, if they don’t like it, well, who cares.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Does it matter?

yes if the woman doesn't want to wear it but feels compelled by combination of religious coercive control and family/ partner coercion and threats

 

[Gethelred]

OK I have a question.

Muslims tell us that it is customary and expected for women to wear a hijab or a burkha, not to consign them to inferior status, but to protect them from the uncontrollable urges of men.

Yet every day I see Muslim men going about their business in close proximity to non-Muslim women dressed with everything they’ve got on display. Nothing left to the imagination.

Yet I’ve not once seen a Muslim man become so inflamed by this display as to be driven out of his mind and pounce on one of these scantily-clad non-Muslim women and ravish her maniacally.

It seems men can control their lustful urges.

So where does this leave the justification for insisting that Muslim women wear a hijab or burkha?

When I was around 14-15, as part of my school's RE program, we were given exposure to other religions. We went to a Buddhist temple; we had a Passover banquet; and we went to the closest Islamic private school, where we were given a tour of the facilities and presented to by students and teachers. And this was essentially one of the first things that was discussed: that there were rigid gender roles within Islam, and that one of those things was the adherence to the hijab.

The students who presented to us - two girls for this part of the thing - both made it known that they could choose to take it off, but that it was their choice to wear it. It was viewed as cultural as well as religious; a connection to their parents, their family, their history. They maintained that god wanted them to be modest rather than their hair being a temptation, but also accentuated the cultural connection.

At the school I teach at, we had a girl go through most of Year 7 wearing a hijab decide she didn't want to wear it anymore, and to my knowledge her parents accepted that.

I don't know. It seems I'm saying that a fair bit recently, but I genuinely don't know. We wear the clothes presented to us by culture that 'suit' us as dictated by subjective standards as to what 'looks good', and/or what is 'appropriate'. We wear suits to the office; we cannot wear thongs and a singlet top to work; we must wear closed toed shoes to work even when there's no safety concerns. While I recognise the genuine issues around rigid gender roles for women in societies that inhibit their freedom to choose, I also recognise that as long as it's their choice they should be free to wear their hijabs and burkas as suits them.

I personally think we should be a good deal freer to explore ourselves through clothing than we are in our drab, boring, business casual world. Why can't I have a hot pink suit that clashes outrageously with my skin tone and hair colour? Why should I be forced into wearing white shirts and blue suits? Why can't I wear robes?

Why are capes no longer a thing? I'd smash a good cape.

yes if the woman doesn't want to wear it but feels compelled by combination of religious coercive control and family/ partner coercion and threats

At what point does it become coercive, though?

Say for the sake of argument, your parents brought you up only eating green apples. You initially didn't like the taste, but your mother made her famous Apple Pie, and you came around to the sourness; it became one of your favourite childhood memories. Your grandmother hated Pink Lady apples, and refused to ever purchase them; she passed that despite down to her daughter, then on to you. You were told how Pink Ladies were awful, that they weren't clean, that they were bad for you; it didn't matter that this wasn't true, you absorbed them when you were young.

Now you're the parent and you're in the shopping centre, and before you is some Pink Ladies and some Granny Smiths. There's no external hand forcing your actions, but are you truly free in that moment to choose?

 

[demondavey]

yes if the woman doesn't want to wear it but feels compelled by combination of religious coercive control and family/ partner coercion and threats

They don’t have to in Australia

 

[Crankyhawk]

When I was around 14-15, as part of my school's RE program, we were given exposure to other religions. We went to a Buddhist temple; we had a Passover banquet; and we went to the closest Islamic private school, where we were given a tour of the facilities and presented to by students and teachers. And this was essentially one of the first things that was discussed: that there were rigid gender roles within Islam, and that one of those things was the adherence to the hijab.

The students who presented to us - two girls for this part of the thing - both made it known that they could choose to take it off, but that it was their choice to wear it. It was viewed as cultural as well as religious; a connection to their parents, their family, their history. They maintained that god wanted them to be modest rather than their hair being a temptation, but also accentuated the cultural connection.

At the school I teach at, we had a girl go through most of Year 7 wearing a hijab decide she didn't want to wear it anymore, and to my knowledge her parents accepted that.

I don't know. It seems I'm saying that a fair bit recently, but I genuinely don't know. We wear the clothes presented to us by culture that 'suit' us as dictated by subjective standards as to what 'looks good', and/or what is 'appropriate'. We wear suits to the office; we cannot wear thongs and a singlet top to work; we must wear closed toed shoes to work even when there's no safety concerns. While I recognise the genuine issues around rigid gender roles for women in societies that inhibit their freedom to choose, I also recognise that as long as it's their choice they should be free to wear their hijabs and burkas as suits them.

I personally think we should be a good deal freer to explore ourselves through clothing than we are in our drab, boring, business casual world. Why can't I have a hot pink suit that clashes outrageously with my skin tone and hair colour? Why should I be forced into wearing white shirts and blue suits? Why can't I wear robes?

Why are capes no longer a thing? I'd smash a good cape.

Did you have a sense for how the school would have approached the year 7s situation if her parents didn't accept it?

 

[10571z]

OK I have a question.

Muslims tell us that it is customary and expected for women to wear a hijab or a burkha, not to consign them to inferior status, but to protect them from the uncontrollable urges of men.

Yet every day I see Muslim men going about their business in close proximity to non-Muslim women dressed with everything they’ve got on display. Nothing left to the imagination.

Yet I’ve not once seen a Muslim man become so inflamed by this display as to be driven out of his mind and pounce on one of these scantily-clad non-Muslim women and ravish her maniacally.

It seems men can control their lustful urges.

So where does this leave the justification for insisting that Muslim women wear a hijab or burkha?

I mean just because you may not have “seen it”

While there isn’t specific religious data Islam is easily the highest immigrant religion in Sweden…

UK is seeing rising rape case but again no data specific to religion..

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

They don’t have to in Australia

Legally, no. But that's not to say there's not considerable social pressure in certain instances.

 

[Crankyhawk]

They don’t have to in Australia

how do we know what is happening inside a family dynamic though. Sure the Australian imams may be supportive of the freedom to choose but I am thinking of new immigrants who may not be aware that they have the choice (if they have come from a more strict interpretation country)

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

View attachment 2502651
I mean just because you may not have “seen it”

While there isn’t specific religious data Islam is easily the highest immigrant religion in Sweden…

UK is seeing rising rape case but again no data specific to religion..

No, you’re quite right, I haven't seen it.

And I suspect you haven’t either. How many times have you seen a Muslim man leap on a western female work colleague and sexually assault her because she was scantily clad by Muslim standards?

(And you are attempting to take this discussion somewhere else entirely. How surprising.)

 

[Crankyhawk]

View attachment 2502651
I mean just because you may not have “seen it”

While there isn’t specific religious data Islam is easily the highest immigrant religion in Sweden…

UK is seeing rising rape case but again no data specific to religion..

What percentage of Swedens population are migrants or second generation immigrants
(we have seen in other threads graphs showing from what I understand 35% of the australian population being immigrants)

edit - ABS has it as about 30% (29.8% to be precise) in 2020 for first generation alone

Migration, Australia, 2019-20 financial year

Statistics on Australia's international migration, internal migration (interstate and intrastate), and the population by country of birth

www.abs.gov.au

 

[Gethelred]

Did you have a sense for how the school would have approached the year 7s situation if her parents didn't accept it?

We have a trans boy whose parents don't accept the situation. We work around it as best we can: we call him by his name - or we would if he'd stop changing it - and we ensure that to the best of our ability we treat him as a boy at school. If students tease him about it - and they do - we pull them into line. On the roll, his name hasn't changed; if parent contact is made - and it's only ever made by experienced teachers and team leaders - we used the name the parents chose and the incorrect pronouns.

If she didn't want to wear her hijab at school, then the second she arrived she could take it off and once one of the teachers noticed it would go on her profile - visible to staff and wellbeing, but not to parents - and it'd get followed up, either by team leaders or by wellbeing. We'd work around it, the way we would the issue above.

It isn't for us to make these choices, to confirm or reject the choices of the children within our care. Provided their behaviour is not causing them or others harm, it's none of our business what they do.

 

[Gethelred]

View attachment 2502651
I mean just because you may not have “seen it”

While there isn’t specific religious data Islam is easily the highest immigrant religion in Sweden…

UK is seeing rising rape case but again no data specific to religion..

10571z, this is the article you pinched that headline from:

Access Restricted

From that same article:

Study faces criticism over methodology

Mr Khoshnood said the statistics also showed that migrants who had been in Sweden for less than five years were more likely to be convicted of rape.

“The longer you have lived in Sweden, the lower the odds of being convicted of rape. So we can see that the integration and understanding you develop for Swedish society plays a major role,” Mr Khoshnood told Swedish news outlet SVT.

The study has faced criticism over its methodology, as it only studied rape convictions in Sweden. Experts point to the fact that just a small proportion of rapes in the country are reported to the authorities.

Jerzy Sarnecki, a criminologist at Stockholm University, dismissed the study as “meaningless” as it only examined figures for convicted rape.

“They’ve only looked at convicted people, and they make up a fraction of all rapists,” he told Swedish broadcaster SVT.

Mr Khoshnood has defended that approach, arguing that 4,000 rape cases over a two-decade period gives “as broad a picture as possible” of the situation in Sweden.

Specifically, this study uses only convictions for rape against women when making this claim. This ignores the reality that rapes go unreported in statistically high amounts, and that it excludes sexual assault, rape of males or trans people, and cases that did not succeed in achieving a conviction.

So the question I've got is, at what point do you receive consequences for posting a racist headline concerning a flawed study shorn of the context and explanation?

For the sake of transparency, here is the actual study:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/08862605241311611

 

[Crankyhawk]

We have a trans boy whose parents don't accept the situation. We work around it as best we can: we call him by his name - or we would if he'd stop changing it - and we ensure that to the best of our ability we treat him as a boy at school. If students tease him about it - and they do - we pull them into line. On the roll, his name hasn't changed; if parent contact is made - and it's only ever made by experienced teachers and team leaders - we used the name the parents chose and the incorrect pronouns.

If she didn't want to wear her hijab at school, then the second she arrived she could take it off and once one of the teachers noticed it would go on her profile - visible to staff and wellbeing, but not to parents - and it'd get followed up, either by team leaders or by wellbeing. We'd work around it, the way we would the issue above.

It isn't for us to make these choices, to confirm or reject the choices of the children within our care. Provided their behaviour is not causing them or others harm, it's none of our business what they do.

thanks

I wonder (and it is purely speculative) if the scenario you outline occurs re the hijab, and then the parents found out; but aware of their own limitations they can't do anything while she is at school - but then verbal her about the choice when she is at home. Girl then reports situation to DFFH/ child protection as verbal aggression making her feel unsafe. Wonder what CPS would then do?

 

[Gethelred]

thanks

I wonder (and it is purely speculative) if the scenario you outline occurs re the hijab, and then the parents found out; but aware of their own limitations they can't do anything while she is at school - but then verbal her about the choice when she is at home. Girl then reports situation to DFFH/ child protection as verbal aggression making her feel unsafe. Wonder what CPS would then do?

Not my area, I'm afraid. We make the calls if we think we need to as mandatory reporters, but where that goes is accomplished by other people.

 

[Crankyhawk]

10571z, this is the article you pinched that headline from:

Access Restricted

From that same article:

So the question I've got is, at what point do you receive consequences for posting a racist headline concerning a flawed study shorn of the context and explanation?

Specifically on the study, I don't know how you can practically get a different methodology to operate

• you cannot get a database of accused rapists that do not proceed to trial
• not even sure you'd be able to get one of those found not guilty at trial

should the headline be more precise - hard; it does mention convicted rapists but then the quote you put mentions it as "5 years in sweden being the cut off" so I'm not sure how that translates to a headline of migrants (yes) and second generation immigrants (surely they have been in sweden more than 5 years?)" Or perhaps the curve is actually quite flat after the first 5 year and so you need to go to that many years in order to get the "2 thirds" number

edit: having difficulty finding the study; most of my attempts seem to go to articles around the author (Kristina Sundquist) being charged for promoting "hatefacts" about immigrants (and yes a lot of the sites seem conservative) though what appears to be Lund University site also mentions the prosecution and not the article. Does seem that the is controversy around whether she had the right ethical approvals to publish it in the first place so probably the research article is not accessible

Rape study reported - preliminary investigation has started

portal.research.lu.se

 

[Gethelred]

Specifically on the study, I don't know how you can practically get a different methodology to operate

• you cannot get a database of accused rapists that do not proceed to trial
• not even sure you'd be able to get one of those found not guilty at trial

should the headline be more precise - hard; it does mention convicted rapists but then the quote you put mentions it as "5 years in sweden being the cut off" so I'm not sure how that translates to a headline of migrants (yes) and second generation immigrants (surely they have been in sweden more than 5 years?)" Or perhaps the curve is actually quite flat after the first 5 year and so you need to go to that many years in order to get the "2 thirds" number

I've been slowly updating the post with more information as I get it, have another look.

There's also the reality that Ardavan Khoshnood is a doctor of medicine, not criminology. I don't know what he's doing publishing an awful lot of works related to criminology, and this particular study has not been peer reviewed to my knowledge.

 

[Crankyhawk]

I've been slowly updating the post with more information as I get it, have another look.

There's also the reality that Ardavan Khoshnood is a doctor of medicine, not criminology. I don't know what he's doing publishing an awful lot of works related to criminology, and this particular study has not been peer reviewed to my knowledge.

Thanks for locating the study
(I did notice that the Lund website had it under emergency medicine which I was a bit wtf)
Looking at the data tables, I think the second generation issue is non existent (the percentages of rapists who are born in Sweden but with one or both parents born outside) was not really different to the controls (12.5% in total for both cases and controls)
the conclusions do state the limitations and seem to me to be seeking ways to better intergrate/ acculturalise - citing other articles talking about rape incidence in more "patrilocal - where woman moves in with the man's family" as having higher incidences of rape

did note that they stated "In 2022, the Swedish police received 4,810 reported instances of rape against adult women, aged 18 or older (Brottsförebyggande rådet, 2023a). However, only 325 individuals were convicted of rape offences during the same time period (Brottsförebyggande rådet, 2023b). "

I don't know if this is a "good" ratio or not; the ABS page doesn't quite compare apples with apples as it talks about police reported sexual assaults and recorded sexual assault crime - numbers of 56.500 reported to police and 36300 sexual assault crimes in 2023

https://www.aihw.gov.au/family-domestic-and-sexual-violence/responses-and-outcomes/police/sexual-assault-reported-to-police

 

[demondavey]

how do we know what is happening inside a family dynamic though. Sure the Australian imams may be supportive of the freedom to choose but I am thinking of new immigrants who may not be aware that they have the choice (if they have come from a more strict interpretation country)

What religion people practice and choose to partake in is their business. There are laws to adhere to, criminal and civil in which all citizens are subjected to. Wearing religious clothing or following practices is none of our business.

There are plenty of Anglo-Saxon people who still practice chauvinism, women who do the housework and religious people who hold dogmatic conservative views of Catholic or Protestant ideology.

What Muslims do isn’t my business or yours.

 

[demondavey]

Legally, no. But that's not to say there's not considerable social pressure in certain instances.

And that matters, why?

 

[Crankyhawk]

What religion people practice and choose to partake in is their business. There are laws to adhere to, criminal and civil in which all citizens are subjected to. Wearing religious clothing or following practices is none of our business.

There are plenty of Anglo-Saxon people who still practice chauvinism, women who do the housework and religious people who hold dogmatic conservative views of Catholic or Protestant ideology.

What Muslims do isn’t my business or yours.

what they (a Muslim, or a Catholic) does to themselves out of a free choice is not my business
it is about ensuring that they know they have a free choice

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

And that matters, why?

As an atheist kafir and vaguely feminist bloke of a certain age, I can certainly say it matters not a lot to me.

But given that women's right (or lack thereof) to dress as they choose is somewhat emblematic of western feminism - which is kind of a major movement of modern history, and Islam - which is followed by a quarter of the world's population - yes, I think it does matter, a hell of a lot to a hell of a lot of people.

You keep pursuing this mysterious line. Would you care to just come out with where you're heading with it?

 

[10571z]

10571z, this is the article you pinched that headline from:

Access Restricted

From that same article:

Specifically, this study uses only convictions for rape against women when making this claim. This ignores the reality that rapes go unreported in statistically high amounts, and that it excludes sexual assault, rape of males or trans people, and cases that did not succeed in achieving a conviction.

So the question I've got is, at what point do you receive consequences for posting a racist headline concerning a flawed study shorn of the context and explanation?

For the sake of transparency, here is the actual study:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/08862605241311611

Rapes against women account for well over 90% of cases in Sweden, so while male victims do exist, their inclusion does not materially change the overall picture. Using conviction data is also the only practical way to conduct this type of analysis, because accusations alone are not a reliable indicator of offending and cannot be measured consistently. Convictions, while imperfect, provide the most verifiable and comparable dataset available.

Calling it “racist” doesn’t address the substance of the discussion. The headline reflects findings from a real study, and debating its conclusions isn’t the same thing as attacking a race or religion. That said, context obviously matters, which is why the study’s limitations, methodology, and the author’s own comments about integration have been raised repeatedly in this thread.

If someone posts a headline without context, the appropriate response is exactly what’s happening here: challenge it with evidence, explain the flaws, and debate the interpretation. That’s how discussion works. Consequences shouldn’t hinge on whether a finding is uncomfortable, but on whether forum rules are actually being broken. Disagree with the argument, fine but labelling opposing views as racist to shut down debate isn’t a substitute for engaging with the data.