15 Games away.

[jj1978]

Pagan's press conference he was quoted as saying:

"Individually a lot of guys have improved, a lot of guys have gone to another level and a lot of the young kids are growing. People mightn't agree with what I say, but maybe they're 15 games away from being able to compete all the time, maybe it's another draft as well, who knows.

Do you agree?

I just don't like the last part of that statement... maybe another draft as well, who knows.

Seems to be unsure of what it will take to get us going again. He needs to lead with conviction, and give us better hope than that.

C'mon Pagan!!!

 

[HBF]

Sounds like he is trying to give us supporters some hope. I think we all know where the club is at, and that we can really only go in one direction. We still have a few guys on our list that we haven't seen anything of, and with this years draft, we could improve a fair bit over the next 2 years.

 

[as0l0]

probably needs some context. He was talking to reporters that he generally doesn't (seem to) like?

 

[btdg]

Absolutely disagree. We're further away now than we have been at any time in the past 6 years. Probably 6 goals worse than the second bottom team at full strength.

Aside from Fevola, Whitnall, Simpson and Scotland, very few players have taken a step forward at all this year, or over the past 3-4 years. And in several cases with the young players, the problems are not physical but due to a) a lack of basic technique, and b) poor decision making. These things are the responsibility of the coach, and for him to shift the goalposts by another 15 weeks is just shifting the responsibility away from himself.

 

[WalkerTexasRanger]

Absolutely disagree. We're further away now than we have been at any time in the past 6 years. Probably 6 goals worse than the second bottom team at full strength.

Aside from Fevola, Whitnall, Simpson and Scotland, very few players have taken a step forward at all this year, or over the past 3-4 years. And in several cases with the young players, the problems are not physical but due to a) a lack of basic technique, and b) poor decision making. These things are the responsibility of the coach, and for him to shift the goalposts by another 15 weeks is just shifting the responsibility away from himself.

Agreed. Pagan is using this pseudo-religious humility in order to save his own bacon. Perhaps he has a bright future in politics!

 

[blues4flag]

Absolutely disagree. We're further away now than we have been at any time in the past 6 years. Probably 6 goals worse than the second bottom team at full strength.

Aside from Fevola, Whitnall, Simpson and Scotland, very few players have taken a step forward at all this year, or over the past 3-4 years. And in several cases with the young players, the problems are not physical but due to a) a lack of basic technique, and b) poor decision making. These things are the responsibility of the coach, and for him to shift the goalposts by another 15 weeks is just shifting the responsibility away from himself.

We are in a much better position now than what we were in 2002-4, and even last year. We've got rid of most of the recycled players who weren't good enough, and now have a team of youngsters, most of whom haven't played yet or have had limited oppurtunity due to injury, or just not ready. (Kennedy, Murphy, Hartlett, Bower, Edwards. etc). With the development of players like Fev, Walker, Simpson, Thornton having a much better season than last and Waite and Fisher back from injury, we have a much better list potential wise than anytime over the last 5 years. Remember, none of our draftees last year have played in weeks for a number of reasons.

I honestly believe that in a couple of years, with a few more quality players and the continued development of our young players, will see a much better and more competitive Carlton team.

 

[mediumsizered]

Absolutely disagree. We're further away now than we have been at any time in the past 6 years. Probably 6 goals worse than the second bottom team at full strength.

Aside from Fevola, Whitnall, Simpson and Scotland, very few players have taken a step forward at all this year, or over the past 3-4 years. And in several cases with the young players, the problems are not physical but due to a) a lack of basic technique, and b) poor decision making. These things are the responsibility of the coach, and for him to shift the goalposts by another 15 weeks is just shifting the responsibility away from himself.

Have you not noticed the improvement of Walker, Thornton, Bentick, Carrazzo, Blackwell and even Wiggins this season? Add to that the promise shown by Murphy, O'Hailpin and Kennedy and suddenly you have at least 13 players all heading in the right direction. Maybe next year will see improvement from Russell, Bower, Hartlett, plus the addition of some quality kids from the draft and then you are looking at 18 players who are competitive plus your depth players in McGrath, Bannister, Smith, Jackson, Flint, Bryan and dare I say De Luca. Of course I haven't even included Fisher, Waite or Betts

Maybe there are not enough quality names there yet to be talking premierships but if most of those named continue to improve even a little bit in each of the next 2 years they will be more than competitive. Look at where we have lost games over the last 6-8 weeks and it is mostly 15-20 minutes of not being switched on that is the difference. Compare that to the major floggings of last season and there is definite improvement. Stronger bodies and more mature minds should ultimately overcome these lapses and lead to winning more games than we lose.

Perhaps I am being overly optimistic, but I haven't seen as good a group of kids at Carlton since the likes of Buckley, Harmes, Sheldon, McConville, Johnston, Marcou, Glascott etc came together over 2-3 years in the late '70s. We are certainly better placed with respect to developing a team than we have been since the great 1995 side gradually came apart.

 

[ShlomoGlickstein]

What a rubbish comment , I mean what does that mean - 15 games away from a WIN???!!

What a crock!! Pagan deserves a serious kick in the behindm abnd the IMMEDIATE SACKING OF HIS DRONGO ASSITANT COACH DEPARTMENT.

That's unnaceeptable, - 15 games away!!! It should be three ie: Winning the first game of 2007 and a few more after that.

Sheesh, what a nerve, the guy has well and truly got us over the barrel.

Maybe he should look long and hard in the mirror at himself, as the coach that has taken a supposedly 'talented' pack of kids to three spoons.

 

[ShlomoGlickstein]

Absolutely disagree. We're further away now than we have been at any time in the past 6 years. Probably 6 goals worse than the second bottom team at full strength.

Aside from Fevola, Whitnall, Simpson and Scotland, very few players have taken a step forward at all this year, or over the past 3-4 years. And in several cases with the young players, the problems are not physical but due to a) a lack of basic technique, and b) poor decision making. These things are the responsibility of the coach, and for him to shift the goalposts by another 15 weeks is just shifting the responsibility away from himself.

I can put names to this:

THORNTON - some of you drongos said a while back he's 'all Australian' material. Maybe all Tasmanian.

HOULIHAN - more junk stats than Camporele at his finest.

McGRATH - tries, tries, but...

WIGGINS - played one quarter of footy against West Coast and was never seen again

WAITE / FISHER - OK, so they were injured, but really, they haven't shown enough to challenge ANY team except maybe Hawthporn and other bottom 4 type clubs.

STEVENS - are we sure he's our best midfielder???

CARAZZO/BENTICK - we were singing their praises at end of '04, but two years later they still haven't stood up..

and DELUCA and LIVO...say no more...

everyone seems to have forgotton how poor our backline still is... Pagan, your excuses are crap. But please get rid of Libba and Elshaugh, they are doing nothing for the club. NOTHING!

I think another few generous draft picks and clever recruiting of tougher players will improve the team. But seriously the past two years, post penalties, we have recruited GRADE 'A' RUBBISH.

 

[blues4flag]

I can put names to this:

THORNTON - some of you drongos said a while back he's 'all Australian' material. Maybe all Tasmanian.

HOULIHAN - more junk stats than Camporele at his finest.

McGRATH - tries, tries, but...

WIGGINS - played one quarter of footy against West Coast and was never seen again

WAITE / FISHER - OK, so they were injured, but really, they haven't shown enough to challenge ANY team except maybe Hawthporn and other bottom 4 type clubs.

STEVENS - are we sure he's our best midfielder???

CARAZZO/BENTICK - we were singing their praises at end of '04, but two years later they still haven't stood up..

Being very harsh, espicially on Thornton. Has had a very good 2nd half of the season, despite playing on oppenents much heavier than him who have a ton of supply. Not a FB/CHB, but is doing a very good job there at the moment all things considered.

Wiggins, although has played a couple bad games since then has definetly improved and been pretty good. Has had a decent season.

Houlihan might get some cheap touches, but also has very good delivery inside fifty and has done a few good negating jobs.

Mcgrath is a depth player, and not part of our future 22. Will be most likely kept, for his leadership and depth.

Waite doesn't seem to be match fit, might be a reason why he's stuggling, however Fisher has been very good recently, pushing up the ground and into defense (though seems to be getting limited gametime possibly as a result of lack of match fitness).

Stevens, although not playing anywhere near to his potential, was tagged by Kane Johnson who is the best tagger in the game. Also, according to Pagan Stevens has a back injury.

Why not focus on the positives of the season, such as the development of a heap of our youngsters? And I think Pagan's comments were spot on, we are going to need to get experience into our youngsters before they play consistent football, simple as that.

 

[btdg]

Have you not noticed the improvement of Walker, Thornton, Bentick, Carrazzo, Blackwell and even Wiggins this season? Add to that the promise shown by Murphy, O'Hailpin and Kennedy and suddenly you have at least 13 players all heading in the right direction. Maybe next year will see improvement from Russell, Bower, Hartlett, plus the addition of some quality kids from the draft and then you are looking at 18 players who are competitive plus your depth players in McGrath, Bannister, Smith, Jackson, Flint, Bryan and dare I say De Luca. Of course I haven't even included Fisher, Waite or Betts

Maybe there are not enough quality names there yet to be talking premierships but if most of those named continue to improve even a little bit in each of the next 2 years they will be more than competitive. Look at where we have lost games over the last 6-8 weeks and it is mostly 15-20 minutes of not being switched on that is the difference. Compare that to the major floggings of last season and there is definite improvement. Stronger bodies and more mature minds should ultimately overcome these lapses and lead to winning more games than we lose.

Of the players you list:

Walker - his potential career has gone from 'dominant midfielder' to 'solid half-back-flanker' in 3 years. I wouldn't call that improvement
Thornton - Way behind where he was 12 months ago, mostly due to a lack of confidence. I don't blame the coaching staff for this - he simply isn't good enough to play on the best forward each week, so it was bound to happen
Carrazzo - Behind where he was this time last year
Blackwell - First real season; can't call it improvement when he hasn't played before
Bentick- This time last year he was a rising star; now he's getting absolutely towelled by guys a year younger than him. Has gone backwards
Murphy - no 1 draft pick, absolute certainty. Even we couldn't stuff this up
O'Hailpin - novelty factor, tries hard, can't play footy
Kennedy - didn't exactly set the world on fire, too early to judge anything
Russell, Bower, Hartlett - can't get a game in the worst team in the comp; fair to say they haven't developed as we might have hoped
McGrath - just treading water until we find someone better
Bannister - see above
Smith/Jackson/Flint - rookies not up to AFL football, as evidenced by the fact they can't get a game in the worst team in the comp
Bryan - hasn't developed, wasn't much fto start with
DeLuca - don't get me started
Fisher - 12 months ago was a 'solid backup forward'. Now he can't get a touch
Waite - At the start of this year was a potential star. Now doesn't even look interested
Betts - not up to standard. Hasn't improved as a crumbing forward; in fact, can't get near the fall of the ball on a regular basis.

The main problem here is a lack of development. Players seem to come to the club, develop physically and show some promise, then go backwards until they eventually fall out of favour and get dropped. What you are seeing as potential just isn't being realised.

 

[audas]

Of the players you list:

Walker - his potential career has gone from 'dominant midfielder' to 'solid half-back-flanker' in 3 years. I wouldn't call that improvement
Thornton - Way behind where he was 12 months ago, mostly due to a lack of confidence. I don't blame the coaching staff for this - he simply isn't good enough to play on the best forward each week, so it was bound to happen
Carrazzo - Behind where he was this time last year
Blackwell - First real season; can't call it improvement when he hasn't played before
Bentick- This time last year he was a rising star; now he's getting absolutely towelled by guys a year younger than him. Has gone backwards
Murphy - no 1 draft pick, absolute certainty. Even we couldn't stuff this up
O'Hailpin - novelty factor, tries hard, can't play footy
Kennedy - didn't exactly set the world on fire, too early to judge anything
Russell, Bower, Hartlett - can't get a game in the worst team in the comp; fair to say they haven't developed as we might have hoped
McGrath - just treading water until we find someone better
Bannister - see above
Smith/Jackson/Flint - rookies not up to AFL football, as evidenced by the fact they can't get a game in the worst team in the comp
Bryan - hasn't developed, wasn't much fto start with
DeLuca - don't get me started
Fisher - 12 months ago was a 'solid backup forward'. Now he can't get a touch
Waite - At the start of this year was a potential star. Now doesn't even look interested
Betts - not up to standard. Hasn't improved as a crumbing forward; in fact, can't get near the fall of the ball on a regular basis.

The main problem here is a lack of development. Players seem to come to the club, develop physically and show some promise, then go backwards until they eventually fall out of favour and get dropped. What you are seeing as potential just isn't being realised.

Probably the most ignorant or deliberately misleading thread Ive seen posted on our list by anyone who either follows the team or dosent. Think martha stewart would give a better summary.

 

[BlueWorld]

Why not focus on the positives of the season, such as the development of a heap of our youngsters? And I think Pagan's comments were spot on, we are going to need to get experience into our youngsters before they play consistent football, simple as that.

SG focus on positives? He wouldn't know the meaning of the word.

 

[btdg]

Probably the most ignorant or deliberately misleading thread Ive seen posted on our list by anyone who either follows the team or dosent. Think martha stewart would give a better summary.

Feel free to disagree if you like - thats the whole point of the board, isn't it? But at least post some actual reason behind your disagreement - actually I'd love to hear it. Sledging without actually backing up your argument is just pointless though

 

[kouta 4 president]

I dont see how anybody in this whole thread can insult Thorntons improvement. I think hes been brilliant.

 

[Bluebear]

Of the players you list:

Walker - his potential career has gone from 'dominant midfielder' to 'solid half-back-flanker' in 3 years. I wouldn't call that improvement
Thornton - Way behind where he was 12 months ago, mostly due to a lack of confidence. I don't blame the coaching staff for this - he simply isn't good enough to play on the best forward each week, so it was bound to happen
Carrazzo - Behind where he was this time last year
Blackwell - First real season; can't call it improvement when he hasn't played before
Bentick- This time last year he was a rising star; now he's getting absolutely towelled by guys a year younger than him. Has gone backwards
Murphy - no 1 draft pick, absolute certainty. Even we couldn't stuff this up
O'Hailpin - novelty factor, tries hard, can't play footy
Kennedy - didn't exactly set the world on fire, too early to judge anything
Russell, Bower, Hartlett - can't get a game in the worst team in the comp; fair to say they haven't developed as we might have hoped
McGrath - just treading water until we find someone better
Bannister - see above
Smith/Jackson/Flint - rookies not up to AFL football, as evidenced by the fact they can't get a game in the worst team in the comp
Bryan - hasn't developed, wasn't much fto start with
DeLuca - don't get me started
Fisher - 12 months ago was a 'solid backup forward'. Now he can't get a touch
Waite - At the start of this year was a potential star. Now doesn't even look interested
Betts - not up to standard. Hasn't improved as a crumbing forward; in fact, can't get near the fall of the ball on a regular basis.

The main problem here is a lack of development. Players seem to come to the club, develop physically and show some promise, then go backwards until they eventually fall out of favour and get dropped. What you are seeing as potential just isn't being realised.

Fine, I'll give it a crack:

1.Walker: Has developed in past two years from potential superstar (remember this is where Richo is still at - count the pressure games only folks!!!), to a consistent half back flanker with ever increasing glimpses of brilliance. Was put down back to learn to work hard and be accountable (sadly lacking in our midfield), and when he was put in the middle on Sunday seemed to grow into the role - will fulfill his potential.

2. Russell: Only Bates, Egan and Polo taken shortly after him in this draft have done any better. Lacks the body and confidence at this level, but is young - give him a chance to develope (Even Kouta took 3-4 years to be consistent - 6-7 to become a star - 1 second with a clash of knees to undo all those dreams....sob....sob)

3. Marc Murphey: Next

4. Bryce Gibbs (Woops - sorry Livo): Um, Livo suffers from the same probs as Thornton, isn't a full back, and played out of position too often. Probably won't survive this season, hence the handover of number.

5.Josh: Yes hasn't set the world on fire, but runs to ALL the right positions, and very often was getting first hands on the pill in packs. Give him two pre-seasons on the weight on this kid will be a star - already starting to look injury prone is only reservation

6. Simo: Where is he in your improvers list???? Has really stood up this year, has improved his decision making going into F50 in the last few weeks, where he has been nesitant. Skills improving for pick number 45, doesn;t look too bad.

7. Davies: Gone. Too little too often, too many injuries

8. Big Red: All Aussie CHB in first half of year, has lost intensity given lack of support in backline.

9. Saddington: Jury still out, but for pick no 50 something, worth a punt.

10. Dylan: Unlikely to become number 1 or 2 ruckman. Future is short at blues

11. French: Best game for the year more for his coverage and presenting than the million tap outs he hit to the Tiges. Awaits pension - fire is out.

12. Matty: Form patchy, glad we didn't give him 3 years. Awaits pension.

13. Blackwell: Good form for first year, needs to back it up next year but will have to earn place with Murphey and Gibbs into the middle.

14. Fish: IF he EVER gets a good run with injuries, could be a real Roberston type forward. Needs to work on goal kicking

15. Teague: Gone, looks more lost than Carlos on the footy field.

17. Carlos: This guy is as big as a ruckman and as quick as a rover. Could be Dustin fletcher type full back with more experience. Has gone from totally lost to partially lost - just remember his run and Kick to Tex in the 1st Q - glimpse of the future (It took Stynes at least 4 years to learn to play)

18. Bower: Needs to bulk up. Will get a couple of senior games next year - 2008 is his aim.

19. Fast Eddie: Legend. Has put the pressure back into the F50 for the 1st time since Sammy left. Doesn't rake up possies and goals loads, but chases and pressurises everything. Good second year, learning a defensive side to his game. Look out 2007.

20. Cory: Hack. Sorry - I know he has some fans out there but is to inconsistent - would rather see Russell makes mistakes and learn than McGrath make mistakes and leave.

21. Longmuir: Hasn't done enough with few opportunities. Will find it hard to push for a forward spot next year - ? gone

22 Chambers: Great motor, pity bout the rest. Delist/trade.

23. Hartlett: Project player, part of our 2009 premiership side at FB.

24.

25. Fev: Needs to continue to iron out the frustration aspect of his game, more 2nd and 3rd efforts, but is the team leader in most improved

Sorry, player number 24 has gone missing, not for the first time this year.
Needs to learn to tackle from Eddie, needs to learn spirit from Carlos, kicking from Murph. If he is made Captain I will not renew my membership.

26. Deluca: Warming a spot for the real ruckman who will arive soon (?Gardiner)

27. Bryan: Hasn't grabbed his limited opportunities this year. Needs an extended go next year but looks a better prospect than Dylan of Deluca for no.2 ruck/forward.

28. Preder: Delist/Trade. Enough opportunities - hasn't grabbed em.

29. Scotland: VC of the best improvers side.

30. Waite: See comment for Fish. Could become CHB/FB?

31. Bannister: Walking a razors edge between becoming something really good, and being a great reverves player.

32. Thornton: Would be a star if we had a decent FB. Has had a consistent year.

33. Hoops: Into the most improved side for the 2nd half of his season - great shut down roles which is new for him. (Eagleton did actually play in the WB game - did anyone notice him?) Still needs to hurt sides more consistently with kicking to forwards and at goals.

34. Wiggs: Has done loads in the two's for years, its obvious every time he plays that he values his spot. Will need to pick up pace/endurnce to play up the ground more - could be great in and under type.

35. Raso: Hasn't knocked on the door at all.

36. Sporn: Needs to cement a spot if he gets another chance - yet another medium sized defender.

37. Jake Edwards: Developing.

38. Jackson: Will knock louder next season, but with Murph and Gibbs may be starved for opportunity. ? Trade Bait

39. Batson: ??? Unsure

40. Bentick: Has been a little disappointing this year, but will become a Ratten type - at the bottom of every pack pumping it out.

41. Smith: Looked stage struck on Sunday. Should play out rest of season in 1's to see if he's got it.

42. Fint: Unlucky with injury, has been carving up and prob would have got a start. Will fce same pressures for spots as all midfielders next year.

43. Kouta: Has dropped off presence in packs this year which has hurt us - esp. Stevo who just fed off him last year. Will force the kids to try and take his spot rather than just hand it over - will pich hit next year on ball and CHF.

44. Carazzo: Lacks skills in midfield, may go to back pocket again with McGrath Delisted

45. Asaike: Project incomplete



If you got to the end well, done.
Remeber, we had to draft a lot of guys late indrafts because of penalties or poor trading decisions, and thats why we lack skill - not because the coach hasn't taught it.
Pagan cannot teach Bentick/Carazzo/etc how to hit targets under pressure. If they can;t do it by now they prob won't. Pagan needs access to the best kids. I hope they give hime the chance because by the end of his contract we will be in the finals.

Ignore our results for the past few years because they are tainted by the draft penalties. Have a look at the other clubs that finished around us and see what the draft can do - Doggies, Melbourne, C'wood, Tigers.

 

[audas]

Feel free to disagree if you like - thats the whole point of the board, isn't it? But at least post some actual reason behind your disagreement - actually I'd love to hear it. Sledging without actually backing up your argument is just pointless though

I will gladly back it up with some facts and figures, examples and insights as you have requested when you do the same. You haqve just written a random list with nothing to back it up other than ....well...........nothing. How has walker gone backwards this year ? Compared to what. You whole list is just junk sorry mate.

Ill tell you what I will do ill treat your list the same as you.

Walker - his potential career has gone from 'dominant midfielder' to 'solid half-back-flanker' in 3 years. I wouldn't call that improvement

Walker has been one of the most improved this year. Really fell away from the high hopes displayed in his first game and was receiving a lot of flack from opposition supporters. Has completely turned things around and silenced his critics with fantastic jobs on some of the competitions best. Has been following a tight, restricitve plan from teh coach to learn to become a well rounded player. His apprenticeship seems to have paid massive dividends and is ready to be moved into the center. One of the best for the blues week in week out.

Thornton - Way behind where he was 12 months ago, mostly due to a lack of confidence. I don't blame the coaching staff for this - he simply isn't good enough to play on the best forward each week, so it was bound to happen

A real stand out for hte blues this season. Many people were wondering what happened to him at the end of last year, but this year has been sensational. Has taken a leading role down back in helping lance. Has sided up to some of the biggest names in the comp and performed excellently. Has had occasional lapses but would have to be carltons most improved defender. Looks to have cemented a spot in the team and provides some hope for the blues.

Carrazzo - Behind where he was this time last year

what can you say. People have wraps on this bloke but im not one of them. He is not better or worse than last year however there will be plenty to talk this guy up im sure.

Bentick- This time last year he was a rising star; now he's getting absolutely towelled by guys a year younger than him. Has gone backwards

Again I dont have big wraps on this bloke however his stats point to a very different story. Has been doing an amazing job, ESPECIALLY compared to last year.

O'Hailpin - novelty factor, tries hard, can't play footy

Yet, however has improved on last year massively, a huge step up and saying otherwise is wrong.

Kennedy - didn't exactly set the world on fire, too early to judge anything

Hmmm, has improved on last year though. !!! He was drafted this year, was injured so no pre-season and is now out again. Showed heaps of promise and is a real plus. Sorry he wasnt wayne carey on debut, but then again neither was wayne....

Russell, Bower, Hartlett - can't get a game in the worst team in the comp; fair to say they haven't developed as we might have hoped

Fair how. Again you target players who have suffered injuries including two that havent even played yet. Russel is so far the only person you have mentioned who has been dissapointing.

McGrath - just treading water until we find someone better

This is true, but he is playing better than last year and wasnt expected to be a development player now was he. He is doing exactly the role he was taken for, so your point is lost really.

Bannister - see above

Bannister is not corey mcgrath and the comparison is strange. However perhaps this is the second player you have mentioned who is not developing as expected.

Smith/Jackson/Flint - rookies not up to AFL football, as evidenced by the fact they can't get a game in the worst team in the comp

What? Smith just played didnt he ? And your logic that becuase a rookie hasnt been elevated yet must mean he is sh1t is totally flawed. Its actually a bit ridiculous. If you have a look what has been said about Jackson he is very close to being given a shot. Either way, these blokes will be eased into the afl, not thrown in willy nilly. THey are rookies FFS and need to be treated that way.

Bryan - hasn't developed, wasn't much fto start with

There are a lot of people who would disagree with this mate. Has not been given a chance with DeLuca neing pndered too. He has performed very well in the magoos and earnt his spot. He improved so uch that he is now in the team and looks the part. He had attitude issues which have also been dealt with. Big improver.

DeLuca - don't get me started

Hmmm.................3

Fisher - 12 months ago was a 'solid backup forward'. Now he can't get a touch

What ? Again another bloke who has been injured. Had done nothing outstanding last year and was epxected to perform this year but was injured. Has come back and started playing well. Is taking marks and missing shots on goals but has improved despite not being given a chance. Is more influential now than last year.

Waite - At the start of this year was a potential star. Now doesn't even look interested

Waite has been injured as well. But that dosent appear to mean squat in your assessment. I agree with the tag that he was going to be a potential star, but like Nick Stevens what peoples expectations are and the reality are two different things. If you look at his game he is playing alright. hasnt gone backwards, but agreed hasnt gone forwards. So thats still 3.

Betts - not up to standard. Hasn't improved as a crumbing forward; in fact, can't get near the fall of the ball on a regular basis.

Well thats because he is not played in that role. He is playing as a defensive forward-mid rather than a crumbing forward. He is playing well and has definitely improved over this year compared to last. Some of his plays have been inpsirational and has become a commentator - supporter favourite due to these fantastic passages of play.

 

[audas]

If you got to the end well, done.
Remeber, we had to draft a lot of guys late indrafts because of penalties or poor trading decisions, and thats why we lack skill - not because the coach hasn't taught it.
Pagan cannot teach Bentick/Carazzo/etc how to hit targets under pressure. If they can;t do it by now they prob won't. Pagan needs access to the best kids. I hope they give hime the chance because by the end of his contract we will be in the finals.

Ignore our results for the past few years because they are tainted by the draft penalties. Have a look at the other clubs that finished around us and see what the draft can do - Doggies, Melbourne, C'wood, Tigers.

Thankyou, thankyou, thanyou !
I was starting to think no-one knew this.

 

[mediumsizered]

Of the players you list:

Walker - his potential career has gone from 'dominant midfielder' to 'solid half-back-flanker' in 3 years. I wouldn't call that improvement
Thornton - Way behind where he was 12 months ago, mostly due to a lack of confidence. I don't blame the coaching staff for this - he simply isn't good enough to play on the best forward each week, so it was bound to happen
Carrazzo - Behind where he was this time last year
Blackwell - First real season; can't call it improvement when he hasn't played before
Bentick- This time last year he was a rising star; now he's getting absolutely towelled by guys a year younger than him. Has gone backwards
Murphy - no 1 draft pick, absolute certainty. Even we couldn't stuff this up
O'Hailpin - novelty factor, tries hard, can't play footy
Kennedy - didn't exactly set the world on fire, too early to judge anything
Russell, Bower, Hartlett - can't get a game in the worst team in the comp; fair to say they haven't developed as we might have hoped
McGrath - just treading water until we find someone better
Bannister - see above
Smith/Jackson/Flint - rookies not up to AFL football, as evidenced by the fact they can't get a game in the worst team in the comp
Bryan - hasn't developed, wasn't much fto start with
DeLuca - don't get me started
Fisher - 12 months ago was a 'solid backup forward'. Now he can't get a touch
Waite - At the start of this year was a potential star. Now doesn't even look interested
Betts - not up to standard. Hasn't improved as a crumbing forward; in fact, can't get near the fall of the ball on a regular basis.

The main problem here is a lack of development. Players seem to come to the club, develop physically and show some promise, then go backwards until they eventually fall out of favour and get dropped. What you are seeing as potential just isn't being realised.

Have you been stuck in Siberia or on assignment at Antarctica because you obviously haven't seen the Blues play this year. It looks like you have just read through some of the threads on here and then posted the most negative stuff you could find. I won't bother doing a player by player rebuttal because Audas has already stated most of what I would have said. I just think you should stop focussing on the negatives that others have already identified and actually look at the reality of what has taken place over the second half of the season. Maybe only 1 1/2 wins in that time, but have been in winning positions in several games. It will only take a bit more improvement to be winning a lot of those games in the next year or two.

 

[btdg]

At least you are now actually putting up some argument, rather than just playing the man. I'll disagree with you, though, obviously - in some cases its clear we just have differing opinions, but I reckon you reference to facts is wrong in a few cases.

I will gladly back it up with some facts and figures, examples and insights as you have requested when you do the same. You haqve just written a random list with nothing to back it up other than ....well...........nothing. How has walker gone backwards this year ? Compared to what. You whole list is just junk sorry mate.

Ill tell you what I will do ill treat your list the same as you.

Walker has been one of the most improved this year. Really fell away from the high hopes displayed in his first game and was receiving a lot of flack from opposition supporters. Has completely turned things around and silenced his critics with fantastic jobs on some of the competitions best. Has been following a tight, restricitve plan from teh coach to learn to become a well rounded player. His apprenticeship seems to have paid massive dividends and is ready to be moved into the center. One of the best for the blues week in week out.

I didn't say Walker hadn't improved this year, and I agree he's been one of our better players. But he no longer looks capable of holding down a midfield role in any more than a defensive role. For me, the best comparison for him now would be Joel Bowden - great attacking defender, but not consistent enough in his disposal to play on the wing or midfield. I reckon thats dissapointing, because Walker showed glimpses early on of being more. He may still prove me wrong though, which would be great.

Thornton - A real stand out for hte blues this season. Many people were wondering what happened to him at the end of last year, but this year has been sensational. Has taken a leading role down back in helping lance. Has sided up to some of the biggest names in the comp and performed excellently. Has had occasional lapses but would have to be carltons most improved defender. Looks to have cemented a spot in the team and provides some hope for the blues.

All I said regarding him is that he looks a lot less confident than 12 months ago. Not his fault - at AFL level he is a solid third defender in the Glen Manton mode, not a star full-back. Playing on the best opposition forward each week is out of his depth - he does a great job, but it would be nice to have someone else there so he could really thrive in a role he's more suited to.

Carrzzo -what can you say. People have wraps on this bloke but im not one of them. He is not better or worse than last year however there will be plenty to talk this guy up im sure.

From what I've seen, he looked better last year than this.

Bentick - Again I dont have big wraps on this bloke however his stats point to a very different story. Has been doing an amazing job, ESPECIALLY compared to last year.

Last year, in round 20 he was a rising star, with 34 possessions. This year his highest tally is 25, and in the last 2 weeks he has been towelled up by younger opposition players. Didn't even look capable in the center on Sunday, which is way behind where he was almost exactly 12 months ago

Yet, however has improved on last year massively, a huge step up and saying otherwise is wrong.

I'll agree with you here. Definitely exciting to watch, fantastically athletic and on the weekend showed glimpses. Tough call really - I Can't see him making it, but he is one player who has improved I guess.

Hmmm, has improved on last year though. !!! He was drafted this year, was injured so no pre-season and is now out again. Showed heaps of promise and is a real plus. Sorry he wasnt wayne carey on debut, but then again neither was wayne....

My only issue here is that despite our weakened team, who were missing 2 forwards through injury, he didn't exactly force his way in. But as I said, too early to tell. Hasn't improved his stock much this year, but probably hasn't fallen far either

Hartlett, Russell, Bower - Fair how. Again you target players who have suffered injuries including two that havent even played yet. Russel is so far the only person you have mentioned who has been dissapointing.

3 high draft picks. 3 guys who can't get a game in the seniors for the worst team in the comp. Sure, they've had injuries, but its still disappointing, whatever way you look at it.

What? Smith just played didnt he ? And your logic that becuase a rookie hasnt been elevated yet must mean he is sh1t is totally flawed. Its actually a bit ridiculous. If you have a look what has been said about Jackson he is very close to being given a shot. Either way, these blokes will be eased into the afl, not thrown in willy nilly. THey are rookies FFS and need to be treated that way.

If a player can't even crack it for a run in the worst midfield in the league, it seems perfectly logical to me that he isn't demonstrating much ability. Especially when the coach is commenting after games that players haven't improved how he would have liked. If it was a matter of easing them in, he'd be commenting on their lack of size or something. Smith got a run on the weekend - and got towelled.

Bryan - There are a lot of people who would disagree with this mate. Has not been given a chance with DeLuca neing pndered too. He has performed very well in the magoos and earnt his spot. He improved so uch that he is now in the team and looks the part. He had attitude issues which have also been dealt with. Big improver.

Bryan seems to split people here. One thing he does well is kick, at least relative to DeLuca, French and McLaren. I just don't think he showed much last year, and hasn't convinced me in limited opportunities this year.

Fisher - What ? Again another bloke who has been injured. Had done nothing outstanding last year and was epxected to perform this year but was injured. Has come back and started playing well. Is taking marks and missing shots on goals but has improved despite not being given a chance. Is more influential now than last year.

Fisher 2005 - 7 games, 13 goals
Fisher 2006 - 11 games, 6 goals
For a forward, thats a step backwards. Sure, injury plays a part, but he had a tough run last year too and showed more.

Waite has been injured as well. But that dosent appear to mean squat in your assessment. I agree with the tag that he was going to be a potential star, but like Nick Stevens what peoples expectations are and the reality are two different things. If you look at his game he is playing alright. hasnt gone backwards, but agreed hasnt gone forwards. So thats still 3.

Injuries do count, but he just doesn't look like a potential star right now. He did earlier in his career.

Betts- Well thats because he is not played in that role. He is playing as a defensive forward-mid rather than a crumbing forward. He is playing well and has definitely improved over this year compared to last. Some of his plays have been inpsirational and has become a commentator - supporter favourite due to these fantastic passages of play.

If Betts isn't a crumbing forward, then what is he? He's small, quick, agile, and has good goal sense, plus an inspirational streak. As a forward, that should add up to goals, right? Sure, the defensive stuff is important, and he does this well. But his real purpose is to kick goals if he's a forward.
2005: 11 games, 11 goals
2006: 19 games, 17 goals
A small step backwards statistically, but in terms of where he should be due to natural development, thats probably a bigger step back. Just doesn't get to the fall of the ball enough for my liking.

 

[WTTF]

If Betts isn't a crumbing forward, then what is he? He's small, quick, agile, and has good goal sense, plus an inspirational streak. As a forward, that should add up to goals, right? Sure, the defensive stuff is important, and he does this well. But his real purpose is to kick goals if he's a forward.
2005: 11 games, 11 goals
2006: 19 games, 17 goals
A small step backwards statistically, but in terms of where he should be due to natural development, thats probably a bigger step back. Just doesn't get to the fall of the ball enough for my liking.

If you are going to question the guy, at least get the stats right:

2005: 19 games, 19 goals, 6.4 possessions per game
2006: 19 games, 17 goals, 11.2 possessions per game

The role of the small forward is getting harder and harder the way the game is played now. We don't bomb the ball long into the forward much any more due to flooding, hense there are less crumbs available. When we do kick long, either Fev marks it or Eddie is opposed to three loose men in defense all fighting for the same crumb.

Tough gig being a small forward these days.

 

[Bluebear]

Fisher 2005 - 7 games, 13 goals
Fisher 2006 - 11 games, 6 goals
For a forward, thats a step backwards. Sure, injury plays a part, but he had a tough run last year too and showed more.


Injuries do count, but he just doesn't look like a potential star right now. He did earlier in his career.



If Betts isn't a crumbing forward, then what is he? He's small, quick, agile, and has good goal sense, plus an inspirational streak. As a forward, that should add up to goals, right? Sure, the defensive stuff is important, and he does this well. But his real purpose is to kick goals if he's a forward.
2005: 11 games, 11 goals
2006: 19 games, 17 goals
A small step backwards statistically, but in terms of where he should be due to natural development, thats probably a bigger step back. Just doesn't get to the fall of the ball enough for my liking.

Have you been watching this year at all?

Fisher comes back from another Hird like injury (y'know - the freak accident variety) and runs around grabbing everything thats any where near him.
Needs to get a full pre-season under his belt and some confidence in kicking. Will be a star.

Betts a forward????? Have you seen a single game this year?
Betts played the crumbing role LAST year almsot exclusively, but was rewarded this year for an excellent pre-season with a MIDFIELD role. Yes he has drifted forward on occasion, but so does any MIDFIELDER worth his salt. He doe'snt have the disposal skills of a Murphey, but his pressure with the ball anywhere near him is nothing short of phenomenal. For a second year player he is doing great - add some Kg's and watch him lead the tackle count next year (has created many turnovers and goals through his pressure - no stats for that!!!!)

 

[DIG]

And we're supposed to be disappointed with Bower?? We only drafted him this season!

 

[mediumsizered]

All I said regarding him is that he looks a lot less confident than 12 months ago. Not his fault - at AFL level he is a solid third defender in the Glen Manton mode, not a star full-back. Playing on the best opposition forward each week is out of his depth - he does a great job, but it would be nice to have someone else there so he could really thrive in a role he's more suited to.

I don't know where this comes from. 12 months ago T-Bird was a shattered man. He was no longer taking marks, his disposal had deteriorated and he was constantly dropping his head or chewing out his teammates. I thought at the end of last season that he may already have peaked and the game was starting to pass him by. Fortunately he has really turned it around this season and his marking and running with the ball and delivering to teammates has been the best we have seen yet. You just have to listen to some of the comments from Wayne Carey, Jason Dunstall, Kevin Bartlett, Gerard Healy on Fox Footy over the last 6-8 weeks, to realise just how much improvement he has shown this year.