16/17 FA Cup

[Cruyff14]

That is categorically wrong. Trophies exist outside of the premier league haha.

Obviously talking domestically. Considering this is the FA Cup thread

 

[Jatz]

Obviously talking domestically. Considering this is the FA Cup thread

That's still wrong.

Newcastle United won a trophy. Sheffield United won a trophy.

2 other clubs in the country is categorically incorrect.

 

[Jatz]

Etc etc.

 

[Cruyff14]

Well in the EPL.

End of the day, the only other teams in the league that won trophies were Chelsea, who won the league, and United who won the CoC and Europa.

Nobody else has a trophy to show for their season.

 

[SM]

Well no, cos there is much more to it than that.

But we did what all but two other clubs in the country failed to do, and that was win a trophy.

Paint it whichever way you like, at the end of the day, we add another trophy to the cabinet and add our name to the history book - again.

So I'm not sure what your point is - are you saying it was a successful season because you added another trophy, or a bad season because you didn't win everything? Can't have it both ways, and if it's the latter then it comes across as pretty entitled.

Maybe it hits a sore spot with me because you beat us in the FA Cup when it would have been the biggest moment in our history, but is now being rubbished by you and other Arsenal supporters as "not enough".

 

[SM]

Well in the EPL.

End of the day, the only other teams in the league that won trophies were Chelsea, who won the league, and United who won the CoC and Europa.

Nobody else has a trophy to show for their season.

Thought we were talking domestically?

 

[Cruyff14]

So I'm not sure what your point is - are you saying it was a successful season because you added another trophy, or a bad season because you didn't win everything? Can't have it both ways, and if it's the latter then it comes across as pretty entitled.

Maybe it hits a sore spot with me because you beat us in the FA Cup when it would have been the biggest moment in our history, but is now being rubbished by you and other Arsenal supporters as "not enough".

It was successful to a point. The win masks a very poor season. I am very happy we won it.

I did not say anywhere at all it is not enough.

 

[PendlePie]

4th-6th, CL run to the 2nd round & FA Cup win.
2-4th, CL semi final & no FA Cup win.

You've had the top scenario 3 times recently but you haven't enjoyed the season or the clubs direction? Doesn't that alone prove that the FA Cup no longer is the top or even 2nd top priority?

Like I said, the league is the priority - so we're on the same page there. An FA Cup win is much better than coming 2nd though - last season we came 2nd with no trophy, and this season has therefore been more successful than last in my eyes. But last season we came 2nd without really competing, which is where intangibles and subjective perceptions come into it.

I feel some Arsenal supporters might prefer Option 2 just because it'd be something different, refreshing, and a real step up on the ceiling we've found ourselves hitting for the last 7-8 years in a row. But it really would be looked at differently club-to-club based on previous seasons, whether 2nd place was a real improvement on previous seasons, etc. Looking at it in isolation though, I'd prefer the first option.

Maybe it hits a sore spot with me because you beat us in the FA Cup when it would have been the biggest moment in our history, but is now being rubbished by you and other Arsenal supporters as "not enough".

It isn't enough when, year on year, the club has failed to improve in the league and has now regressed. Ask some Dortmund supporters on here how they feel about Tuchel. He won the Pokal, but is skating on thin ice according to many fans.

Again, it really is dependent on the club and fans you ask. it isn't arrogance at all. We're run by a manager who as a whole hasn't taken the club forward on-field in about a decade, and if anything is now taking us backwards in terms of league and UCL standings. It really isn't a hard concept to grasp. The FA Cup is fantastic and look at our thread to see how much we enjoy it. But it simply doesn't make up for a decade of shit from Wenger in competitions that are clearly prioritised more highly by an absolute majority of clubs - the league is bread and butter.

If you want to call that arrogance then fine, but I'm pretty much done on explaining what shouldn't really require explaining. All I can say is that looking at it through your own team's eyes is probably where you'd be getting it wrong.

 

[SM]

It was successful to a point. The win masks a very poor season. I am very happy we won it.

I did not say anywhere at all it is not enough.

"No, there is much more to it than that." Sounds like you weren't satisfied with a trophy winning season.

 

[SM]

Like I said, the league is the priority - so we're on the same page there. An FA Cup win is much better than coming 2nd though - last season we came 2nd with no trophy, and this season has therefore been more successful than last in my eyes. But last season we came 2nd without really competing, which is where intangibles and subjective perceptions come into it.

I feel some Arsenal supporters might prefer Option 2 just because it'd be something different, refreshing, and a real step up on the ceiling we've found ourselves hitting for the last 7-8 years in a row. But it really would be looked at differently club-to-club based on previous seasons, whether 2nd place was a real improvement on previous seasons, etc. Looking at it in isolation though, I'd prefer the first option.



It isn't enough when, year on year, the club has failed to improve in the league and has now regressed. Ask some Dortmund supporters on here how they feel about Tuchel. He won the Pokal, but is skating on thin ice according to many fans.

Again, it really is dependent on the club and fans you ask. it isn't arrogance at all. We're run by a manager who as a whole hasn't taken the club forward on-field in about a decade, and if anything is now taking us backwards in terms of league and UCL standings. It really isn't a hard concept to grasp. The FA Cup is fantastic and look at our thread to see how much we enjoy it. But it simply doesn't make up for a decade of shit from Wenger in competitions that are clearly prioritised more highly by an absolute majority of clubs - the league is bread and butter.

If you want to call that arrogance then fine, but I'm pretty much done on explaining what shouldn't really require explaining. All I can say is that looking at it through your own team's eyes is probably where you'd be getting it wrong.

I don't think I used the word arrogant, and did in fact admit that it might just be the sore spot of it being the FA Cup that is the trophy at the centre of this discussion.

 

[jd2010]

Like I said, the league is the priority - so we're on the same page there. An FA Cup win is much better than coming 2nd though - last season we came 2nd with no trophy, and this season has therefore been more successful than last in my eyes. But last season we came 2nd without really competing, which is where intangibles and subjective perceptions come into it.

Yeah last season really wasn't a true reflection of what I was trying to say. 2-4th and be right in the title race rather than knowing it's not going to happen in March is very different to what happened last season and I think many Arsenal fans would be happier with that because it's a sign of progress and competing for the top goal which you havent for a while. Does that sound about right?

 

[Fryer Tuck]

Nice Job Arsenal. I remember the times when we used to do so well in the League Cup.

Just once, I would like to fill out the last remaining spot in our English resume.

 

[PendlePie]

Yeah last season really wasn't a true reflection of what I was trying to say. 2-4th and be right in the title race rather than knowing it's not going to happen in March is very different to what happened last season and I think many Arsenal fans would be happier with that because it's a sign of progress and competing for the top goal which you havent for a while. Does that sound about right?

Yep, this is pretty much why most want Wenger gone. We haven't seen "progress and competing for the top goal" in almost a decade. Simply not good enough.

But while competing is a level above being out of it by Feb/March, winning the title is obviously a huge level above that. Which is why 2nd and competitiveness v. an FA Cup trophy is very much subjective. Would I trade yesterday's victory for a much better league and UCL year this season? I wouldn't but others might.

 

[typeclub]

If that's what football is about you must be happy to keep a manager who has won three in the last four seasons?

He's actually won a lot of top 4 trophies as well.

 

[Cruyff14]

"No, there is much more to it than that." Sounds like you weren't satisfied with a trophy winning season.

It's all relative. My club has been successful in the past, we should be aiming for more than a cup win.

I was happy with a cup win, but I expected a much better season considering the resources we have available.

 

[SM]

It's all relative. My club has been successful in the past, we should be aiming for more than a cup win.

I was happy with a cup win, but I expected a much better season considering the resources we have available.

It is a bit funny that while a team is successful they'll laugh at others for using their history as a crutch, but the moment they stop being successful, they turn to it as a gauge for what they should still be achieving.

Every team goes in a cycle. Getting rid of Wenger doesn't guarantee success, and under him you've won trophies in three of the last four seasons. You could appoint a new manager and drop out of the top 10 for all we know. Wenger is holding a lot of aspects of that club together, which slowly need to be weaned of him rather than going cold turkey.

 

[Cruyff14]

We could. Or we could do what Chelsea did and win the league.

 

[SM]

We could. Or we could do what Chelsea did and win the league.

Because Mourinho was at Chelsea for 20 years?

 

[PendlePie]

You could appoint a new manager and drop out of the top 10 for all we know.

Fearing this isn't a good enough reason to keep him on as manager.

Wenger is holding a lot of aspects of that club together, which slowly need to be weaned of him rather than going cold turkey.

Unfortunately this is somewhat true, though maybe it's time for our overpaid board to earn their keep.

 

[Sozabarus]

IT'S BETTER TO DIE ON YOUR FEET THAN LIVE ON YOUR KNEES. #WENGEROUT IT'S TIME TO GO

THANKS FOR THE MEMORIES

OUT MEANS OUT

BETTER SEASON THAN SPURS

1-0 TO THE ARSENAL 1-0

BLUD FAM BLUD

 

[SM]

IT'S BETTER TO DIE ON YOUR FEET THAN LIVE ON YOUR KNEES. #WENGEROUT IT'S TIME TO GO

THANKS FOR THE MEMORIES

OUT MEANS OUT

BETTER SEASON THAN SPURS

1-0 TO THE ARSENAL 1-0

BLUD FAM BLUD

Wenger and his jackets are a gift that keep on giving.

 

[kangaspurs]

Yep, this is pretty much why most want Wenger gone. We haven't seen "progress and competing for the top goal" in almost a decade. Simply not good enough.

But while competing is a level above being out of it by Feb/March, winning the title is obviously a huge level above that. Which is why 2nd and competitiveness v. an FA Cup trophy is very much subjective. Would I trade yesterday's victory for a much better league and UCL year this season? I wouldn't but others might.

Great post. I think that second paragraph is a really important point. When it comes to football, as opposed to something like AFL with equalisation, success can be entirely subjective to different clubs and fans and it's impossible not to consider it relative to a clubs financial power.

Take Bournemouth, for example, they've won nothing and just finished in the top half, but it's arguably the most successful season in the clubs history. And I'm of the opinion that a similar logic can apply to us. We're not supposed to even finish anywhere near the top 4, let alone challenge for the title or win cups. At 6th in the 'wage table' our wage budget is closer Watford's in about 17th than Liverpool's who are 5th. So, while I understand all the ribbing about how we only 'put the pressure on' and how we finally finished above Arsenal but still had a worse season than them because, honestly, it makes some great banter, it doesn't particularly bother me because we've punched well above our weight and had a great season, trophy or not.

I know it contradicts what I said a few pages back, but after reading the posts from Arsenal fans since I can see why some want Wenger out because the expectations are different. I was thinking about it with my Spurs cap on and how ungrateful it would be to want a manager sacked after a winning a trophy that we haven't won in 20-odd years.

 

[Cruyff14]

Because Mourinho was at Chelsea for 20 years?

Not sure what that has to do with anything.

I meant we could switch managers and win the league.

You're really spoiling for an argument it seems. I think as you said, it stems from your bitterness from 2014.

 

[Dirty Bird]

Winning the fa cup is like being the minor premiers in footy.

It's a trophy, it's an accomplishment to be proud of. But it's also something other fans won't give a crap about looking back at history.

I can tell you who won the last four fa cups.
I can tell you the opponents in two of them.
But before that, I can't recall who won what.

But at the end of the day, in this day and age the premier league is the ultimate prize.

If you can't compete in the league. Who cares what you do. The more you slip, the harder it is to get big name signings. If Arsenal isn't in the top 4, will you be able to attract world class players like ozil and Sanchez still? Maybe for a year or two. But if you're average for 5 more years, what then? What about 10 years?

All the fa cup is, is putting a bandaid over the cracks. You'll hide the issues short term. But the issue will grow and snowball out of control if you ignore the real issues at hand.

And that's why many are sick of arsene Wenger. For the last ten years the club has plateaued at what should be the bare minimum standard. Champions league is a huge recruiting tool. You've now lost that. Now is where things get tough. Can you bring in world class players, Will you keep ozil and Sanchez.

I guess the only reason I can see fans being pro Wenger are those who have seen what happens to big clubs when you lose a good manager like we've seen at united post ferguson. That, and those deluded by the false promise of the fa cup.

Things are looking cloudy ATM
And Wenger has done so much for 20 years that he deserves to have a chance to keep Arsenal relevant.

 

[SM]

Not sure what that has to do with anything.

I meant we could switch managers and win the league.

You're really spoiling for an argument it seems. I think as you said, it stems from your bitterness from 2014.

Just saw this, and no I wasn't, you just missed the point I was making, which was that Wenger is so ingrained in your club. Replacing him is not the same as replacing Mourinho at Chelsea, that's all. PendlePie understood.