NFL 2009 NFL - Week 5

[Woodson]

It seems amazing to me that a) a head coach would so consistently be making such intense criticisms of a quarterback he continues to start and b) fans could actually place credence in the words of a coach who does so.

The whole organization is rotten. How do people think Matt Ryan would have developed in Oakland?

The words developed & Oakland in same sentence = whole bowl of WRONG!

I think we are all aching to watch the suffering Raider faithful put thru another wasted season that only embarrasses the NFL product.

 

[marcuz]

Young/Quinn/Russell et al could all be improved QBs in different places. Sometimes thats what it takes. Its hardly a definite, but Oakland is terrible atm at not only developing players, but general management/coaching.

I agree, but some blokes are more driven than others and work their arses off to give them the best chance. Brady Quinn doesnt have JR's physical skill set but he ****ing looks like a footballer. A shit team and ownership doesnt stop you from working hard in the gym and studying a playbook.

 

[Dagless]

I agree, but some blokes are more driven than others and work their arses off to give them the best chance. Brady Quinn doesnt have JR's physical skill set but he ****ing looks like a footballer. A shit team and ownership doesnt stop you from working hard in the gym and studying a playbook.

Shit management suggested he could get away with doing the bare minimum. That was beginning with only getting him to learn 40% of the playbook in the first year. I liked sitting him, but even that gesture didn't help him.

I can tell you, a player will be 20x motivated by being DROPPED to QB2-3 over a coach fining him.

Russell loses his guarantee, and there is a fair chance he attempts to step up in comparison to what he has been doing. His life and love depends on it.

 

[exe ex machina]

You don't think HC's call out their players in the media, to try to light a fire under them, STKO?

Regularly happens in the NFL.
Raiders management is ****ed, yes, but the blame also rests with Russell for not wanting to push himself to be better, learn, keep in shape, etc. I mean, if he's getting fined for being overweight, the organization IS taking efforts to give him incentives, rewards-punishments, and yet he cops the fines in itself shows he isnt caring enough to keep under weight.

Let alone learning the playbook, film study, and extra work. But the organization is also to blame as well for providing the trainwreck culture that it is.

 

[Southerntakeover]

So its the bad culture and management at the raiders that has turned JR into a house on legs?

Would it be accepted at say... the Giants, the Patriots, the Steelers?

 

[Dagless]

You don't think HC's call out their players in the media, to try to light a fire under them, STKO?

Regularly happens in the NFL.
Raiders management is ****ed, yes, but the blame also rests with Russell for not wanting to push himself to be better, learn, keep in shape, etc. I mean, if he's getting fined for being overweight, the organization IS taking efforts to give him incentives, rewards-punishments, and yet he cops the fines in itself shows he isnt caring enough to keep under weight.

Let alone learning the playbook, film study, and extra work. But the organization is also to blame as well for providing the trainwreck culture that it is.

Exactly, its a very balanced combination.

As long as Russell thinks his future is secure in the immediate, he will continue to do the same. The team wants to motivate him, but they are doing it in the least effective way IMO.

Drop him - See if that motivates him. It has a better chance than simply fining him and keeping him as starter. If it doesn't, you well and truly have a bust on your hands.

 

[exe ex machina]

I agree, but some blokes are more driven than others and work their arses off to give them the best chance. Brady Quinn doesnt have JR's physical skill set but he ****ing looks like a footballer. A shit team and ownership doesnt stop you from working hard in the gym and studying a playbook.

Exactly. JR would've busted anywhere else too. Leaf sucked whichever team he went to, Holmgren took him under his wings at one point too, and even he couldn't get him to un-bust.

The buck stops with the player himself. Management/coaching is all about leading a horse to water. The player is the one who drinks or not. The Raiders DO still deserve criticism for their management etc, but they HAVE developed good players recently...like Mario Henderson, M.Bush, O.O'Neal, Z.Miller, N.Asomugha, S.Lechler, R.Gallery (as OG), T.Branch, etc. Why them and not others? Because the player has to drink. It seems a lot of the players are either not talented enough and/or mail it in for the paycheck rather than being self-respecting like Asomugha.

 

[marcuz]

Would it be accepted at say... the Giants, the Patriots, the Steelers?

No it wouldn't, but conversly would Brady, Manning and big ben let themselves go like that regardless of the teams standards?

 

[Southerntakeover]

You don't think HC's call out their players in the media, to try to light a fire under them, STKO?

Regularly happens in the NFL.
Raiders management is ****ed, yes, but the blame also rests with Russell for not wanting to push himself to be better, learn, keep in shape, etc. I mean, if he's getting fined for being overweight, the organization IS taking efforts to give him incentives, rewards-punishments, and yet he cops the fines in itself shows he isnt caring enough to keep under weight.

Let alone learning the playbook, film study, and extra work. But the organization is also to blame as well for providing the trainwreck culture that it is.

I dont see other coaches so consistency critical of their players, no. Maybe they are and im just used to Andy Reids stoic silence, but, i cant envision many coaches making statements to the effect of 'our starting quarterback is fat, lazy, and stupid. This is all his fault'.

And yeah, i do place alot of blame on the system, though plenty still lies with him no doubt.

The way i see it, you had two choices at the start of the season. You either:

1. have open competition for qb spot, which garcia wins

2. Conceed too much is invested in Russell, and build a team around his strengths.

As far as i can see you did neither. You cant throw a big armed QB who struggles with accuracy out there with a bunch of rookie recievers (none of which can provide the large body he actually needs to throw to... think eli to plax), and a pourous O line that doesnt seem to be able to stop a pensioner in the bus line and expect him to do much at all. Its obvious the guy was going to need development, its beholden on the team then to build a system around his strengths.

As far as i can see, Cable and the management have half assed both. They didnt have a qb competition, yet claim their system is too important to tailor to the qb, then continually put out snide attempts about how hes not smart enough etc to understand their awesome system.

 

[Southerntakeover]

No it wouldn't, but conversly would Brady, Manning and big ben let themselves go like that regardless of the teams standards?

Who knows what their personalities would be like at other franchises...

I mean, youve got Brady with his model dating living the life... youve got Big Ben crashing his motorbike and injuring himself etc. Elis ego demands he wont play for the Chargers, insists on being traded before playing a game etc.

Hell, even look at Randy Moss the patriot v Randy moss the Raider, and im not talking about just on field either.

 

[exe ex machina]

As long as Russell thinks his future is secure in the immediate, he will continue to do the same. The team wants to motivate him, but they are doing it in the least effective way IMO.

Drop him - See if that motivates him. It has a better chance than simply fining him and keeping him as starter. If it doesn't, you well and truly have a bust on your hands.

Well that's the $64 question. That's on Davis tying Cable's hands and holding the org hostage to his tyrannical ways, Cable being a puppet, and over his head. Davis' typical "scholarship" players. Things like holding onto Bowie because that was the pick he got for Moss. Or not benching Russell to spite his own face because he cant stand being wrong (kiffin) etc, and players knowing Russell sucks and hurts their chances of winning, that they also cant be touched by coaches because Davis overrules them, all creates the trainwreck.

Davis has to go, yes. And the minute he does, the Raiders would immediately be a better team because accountability would be instilled by a proper GM-HC authority structure, them picking their own players, benching the ones they want, fixing the OL, LBs, instead of neglecting them, and so players would all be accountable too and perform or be cut.

Russell busted himself but is being allowed to bust with pay and management protection. Then all that takes the rest of the team down with it.

 

[marcuz]

Who knows what their personalities would be like at other franchises...

I mean, youve got Brady with his model dating living the life... youve got Big Ben crashing his motorbike and injuring himself etc. Elis ego demands he wont play for the Chargers, insists on being traded before playing a game etc.

Hell, even look at Randy Moss the patriot v Randy moss the Raider, and im not talking about just on field either.

Did any of those three turn up to training camp looking like they just swallowed another human? You're either driven or you ain't, its a hard thing to teach.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying STO, i just think at some point JR has to have some ****ing pride in himself and start acting like a professional. God knows somebody needs to in oakland.

 

[exe ex machina]

I dont see other coaches so consistency critical of their players, no. Maybe they are and im just used to Andy Reids stoic silence, but, i cant envision many coaches making statements to the effect of 'our starting quarterback is fat, lazy, and stupid. This is all his fault'.

And yeah, i do place alot of blame on the system, though plenty still lies with him no doubt.

The way i see it, you had two choices at the start of the season. You either:

1. have open competition for qb spot, which garcia wins

2. Conceed too much is invested in Russell, and build a team around his strengths.

As far as i can see you did neither. You cant throw a big armed QB who struggles with accuracy out there with a bunch of rookie recievers (none of which can provide the large body he actually needs to throw to... think eli to plax), and a pourous O line that doesnt seem to be able to stop a pensioner in the bus line and expect him to do much at all. Its obvious the guy was going to need development, its beholden on the team then to build a system around his strengths.

As far as i can see, Cable and the management have half assed both. They didnt have a qb competition, yet claim their system is too important to tailor to the qb, then continually put out snide attempts about how hes not smart enough etc to understand their awesome system.

Good post. That's exactly the problem tho going on. The whole management structure, tyranny, neutered coaching staff, sacred cows, etc etc. It's patently obvious to all but the big man who lives in denial, and pride, and paranoia. So all that is granted true. But also JR is a bust is a bust is a bust per se irrespective the org he got signed to. Eg, A.Walter still got cut by the Patriots. They saw nothing in him, like the Raiders saw in the end. Russell being lazy and unmotivated would still be true in New England. It's his nature. He got the guaranteed money, he's happy. Randy Moss, totally different situation, because he himself is a great player who drank the water himself upon entering the league. He quit on the Raiders because he saw what we're talking about, and already has the self-respect and committment to put in for that new team (patriots). Already proven player who drinks the water himself.

This being a convo about "developing" rookies.

As for coaches calling out players, happens plenty of times. M.Tomlin did it recently with Mendenhall. Cable and Kiffin did it all last year with Henderson, and in the end he drank the water. There are so many of them every year around the league. Washington with F.Davis and D.Thomas. Holmgren with J.Carlson. etc etc.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Did any of those three turn up to training camp looking like they just swallowed another human? You're either driven or you ain't, its a hard thing to teach.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying STO, i just think at some point JR has to have some ****ing pride in himself and start acting like a professional. God knows somebody needs to in oakland.

Oh i dont disagree with the second bit. Hes really wasting a massive opportunity, and its a shame.

I just wonder how much of it is human nature, given theres really no incentive at the franchise hes at to do it. Not only do they not enforce it, but they dont know how to build a franchise that will suceed even if he ws driven.

 

[Southerntakeover]

Good post. That's exactly the problem tho going on. The whole management structure, tyranny, neutered coaching staff, sacred cows, etc etc. It's patently obvious to all but the big man who lives in denial, and pride, and paranoia. So all that is granted true. But also JR is a bust is a bust is a bust per se irrespective the org he got signed to. Eg, A.Walter still got cut by the Patriots. They saw nothing in him, like the Raiders saw in the end. Russell being lazy and unmotivated would still be true in New England. It's his nature. He got the guaranteed money, he's happy. Randy Moss, totally different situation, because he himself is a great player who drank the water himself upon entering the league. He quit on the Raiders because he saw what we're talking about, and already has the self-respect and committment to put in for that new team (patriots). Already proven player who drinks the water himself.

This being a convo about "developing" rookies.

As for coaches calling out players, happens plenty of times. M.Tomlin did it recently with Mendenhall. Cable and Kiffin did it all last year with Henderson, and in the end he drank the water. There are so many of them every year around the league. Washington with F.Davis and D.Thomas. Holmgren with J.Carlson. etc etc.

The Moss point wasnt simply that a players 'motivation' can change from franchise to franchise. Go from being a 'quitter' who gives up on routes, to the leagues best WR within a year, not putting a foot wrong.

Look, theres no doubt blame lies with Russell, its just... the thing is, the statements coming from the Raiders management are self defeating, because if any of its true they are to blame.

- If hes just a lazy bastard- they should have picked it up pre draft, never take him.

- If hes struggling to fit the system- the coaches should have been able to tailor it to him

- If hes actually a good player - wtf...

See what i mean? It really worries me when you get a franchise trying to buck pass onto a player.

 

[exe ex machina]

The Moss point wasnt simply that a players 'motivation' can change from franchise to franchise. Go from being a 'quitter' who gives up on routes, to the leagues best WR within a year, not putting a foot wrong.

Look, theres no doubt blame lies with Russell, its just... the thing is, the statements coming from the Raiders management are self defeating, because if any of its true they are to blame.

- If hes just a lazy bastard- they should have picked it up pre draft, never take him.

- If hes struggling to fit the system- the coaches should have been able to tailor it to him

- If hes actually a good player - wtf...

See what i mean? It really worries me when you get a franchise trying to buck pass onto a player.

Agree about player motivation. Tho a pre-established proven vet is different to a rookie developing. I bet many rookies still going to the undesirable Raiders STILL want to make a name for themselves, want to become great players in the NFL per se. We have developed excellent rookies recently (as listed in a previous post). Include Murphy as well as one too. Some players have the mettle in them to want to still improve and try to become a pro-bowler, HOFer, or even use that rookie team as a stepping stone towards bigger contracts at other teams.

All your last points are true and again it all comes down to what's been said too many times about Davis' structure and tyranny. Everything is handicapped and hog-tied by it until he leaves.

But even with Cable's hands tied and all that dysfunction, you still have someone like Murphy and Brandon Myers, newest rookies, still developing well because it's their nature and talent and drive.

I think we all agree anyway about this topic. It's on Russell, and Davis.

Also, the org isn't hanging it all on him. God knows how much Cable the shill has to also in press-conferences say it's not all Russell's fault, that he wont bench him etc. And Davis saying "russell is a great QB". He's been made a sacred cow by management rather than hung out. But the short-tempered Cable and even Tollner/Hackett have exploded at times in frustration with Russell in the media, talking about his laziness, attitude, weight, regression, etc. Garcia did it recently too. Gannon did recently too. Dungy and Parcells and Harrison all did it in the media too. It's clear to everyone and it's not about ridiculing Russell either, just trying to light a spark under him or anger at him. Just people speaking their minds, it always comes out, why we have so many great sound bytes over the years of coaches/media airing dirty laundry.

 

[exe ex machina]

Btw, the question was asked earlier this morning about this...

Source:-According to the Florida Times-Union, Mike Sims-Walker was deactivated Sunday for "violating the team itinerary during the team's weekend stay" in Seattle.
The Jags arrived in Seattle on Friday, one day earlier than a normal road trip. It would be nice to have some details on Sims-Walker's offense, but it sounds like he enjoyed the Seattle nightlife a little too much. He should be back in the starting lineup for next week's home game against the Rams.

 

[Southerntakeover]

On another note, since we spend far too much time discussing the train wrecks...


Andy Reid earned his 100th coaching win at Philadelphia today.

Seems likely to get his contract extended in the near future.

 

[exe ex machina]

A.Reid congrats. One of my favorite coaches.

Also, Mangini was far too happy in his PC with the Browns win. Just over the moon. Not sure that's such a great advertisment for being over the moon with a win. QB situation worth monitoring tho.

Also, lol big time at Dre Bly's Deion taunt 70 yards away from the endzone, down by 20 pts, and fumbled it. Even Singletary and all his army discipline and respect didnt sink into the players. He even had a talking to them when the score was still 0-0. Players believing their own hype too much. Complacency against the Falcons? Bad.

Interesting to see if the Broncos get ahead of themselves or remain focused.

 

[GeeCats07]

They mentioned it in the commentary over and over. He wents nuts at all of them for a whole time-out, then the very next play Roddy White got wide open for a big TD. Hill really struggled without a run game when he had to make plays to get them back. Also Josh Morgan seemed to stop running, thinking he had the TD then got tackled a few yards out. Maybe the whole team just had a bad day.

 

[exe ex machina]

Yeah, forgot the Josh Morgan one too.
Really think the Niners believed their own hype in that game.
Too many things happened showing that kind of thing.

 

[JeffDunne]

Even Singletary and all his army discipline and respect didnt sink into the players. He even had a talking to them when the score was still 0-0.

Personally I have little time for Singletary's sort of bravado.

Do you reckon players respect it? I don't.

Disicpline should be self imposed and if you need a coach grandstanding and pulling stunts for motivation you're only 5 minutes from your next meltdown.

Early in the game/thread I made the comment about the game being over before it even got started. The 49ers didn't turn up to play. No point dropping your dacks in the locker-room once the horse has bolted.


Maybe they are believing their own hype but I wouldn't stop with the players. The Falcons went in better prepared. That one is on the coach.

As for Bly, there is a reason why a player so talented keeps getting shunted onto the next franchise. With some players I reckon their talent makes them almost uncoachable (at least in the terms being discussed here).


Just getting back to JR for a moment, IMO he was the classic case of a player that saw being drafted as an end in itself. For some players THAT payday is all they are interested in. Once it comes, so too does the lifestyle, the fame and the attention. Football doesn't look that important to them any more.

I don't understand why people get angry at the players though.

 

[Brasher]

That 49ers effort was the worst "didn't come to play performance" I have seen from the team ever!

I mean we have been bad but in the past we have simply been outplayed by better teams, yesterday was like the players and coaches already had their bags packed for the bye week. I've never seen so many boneheaded plays by any team in one game:

- Morgan thinking he could coast into the endzone
- Coffee, thinking Morgan had scored jogs to the sideline and the 49ers have to call a timeout to get him back on the field.
- Singletary calling a timeout to rally the troops and then letting Roddy White strut into the endzone, unchallenged, on the very next play
- Because of the above un-necessary timeouts not having one left to challenge the obvious down by contact fumble on Walker's return
- Dre Bly's intercept, showboat (on his own 25) and subsequent fumble.
- Ryan never even being touched by a defensive 49er all day.
- The offensive line playing usher to the QB for the Falcons defensive front 4
- Clements missing the pass knockdown and subsequent tackle on White's 90 yard TD canter (this was the turning point for me).

This is just the stuff that I haven't seen the likes of all season.

We just can't do this stuff given our problems along the offensive line and QB!

 

[redragger]

Also, Mangini was far too happy in his PC with the Browns win. Just over the moon. Not sure that's such a great advertisment for being over the moon with a win. QB situation worth monitoring tho.

I think Mangini is a little smarter than you give him credit for. I think he has realised that flogging your players mercilessly and taking the fun out of football is not the way to go. His happiness at the PC was for his players, showing to them that the work they put in does not go underappreciated...

Also, lol big time at Dre Bly's Deion taunt 70 yards away from the endzone, down by 20 pts, and fumbled it. Even Singletary and all his army discipline and respect didnt sink into the players. He even had a talking to them when the score was still 0-0. Players believing their own hype too much. Complacency against the Falcons? Bad.

Dre Bly is a cretin; bad locker room guy, and lets face it, anyone cut from the Broncos secondary last year aint up to playing NFL football. I'm not a Singletary fan either, emotion will only get you so far, you still have to play football...

Interesting to see if the Broncos get ahead of themselves or remain focused.

You can only hope GG... In all seriousness, the guys that McDaniels has brought in aren't those type of players. Initially I was disappointed with the signing, but B Dawk is easily the best pickup we had all offseason. I mean, who did the guys have to listen to last year? Dre Bly? Marlon McCree? FMD... Not only is he emotionally the best leader in the NFL, he brings it on the field. Andra Davis is another underrated signing, great locker room guy, and pro on the field...

 

[JeffDunne]

Unapologetic Bly: "Dre's gonna be Dre."

Pressed on the celebration, Bly said this: "Like I say, I'm going to be me. That's who I've been my whole life, that's who I was in college. I have fun. Dre's gonna be Dre."

Like I said, un-coachable.

He doesn't see any problem with "Dre being a ********".

Why would he change now?