2013 Fixture Discussion

[Cousin Jed]

They could but the club would have to pay Melbourne the generous sum the NT government would be giving the Dees. That's not viable.

 

[western royboy]

It is unfortunate how much damage Bowers and Co managed to do, at least the current mob is bringing it back somewhat. Fixture will always be an issue, and until the AFL takes notice nothing will change there. Needs to be more supporter backlash aim at the AFL.

Having 2 teams from different states merge was always going to be a pain in the arse, and realistically, we simply cannot be a genuine two team town, especially when we are based in the frontier for AFL in QLD, there are enough battles that need to be won here without worrying about the Melb side of things. It seems that in the AFL's eyes, this wasn't really a merger, more of a take over.

I think the path that the club is heading in is to have it's own new post merger identity, not wanting to be directly linked to either merged club. It will be more of a heritage thing with links to Fitzroy, more so than representing Fitzroy itself. I think the club will continue to do what it can for Melb members, and try give the Fitzroy fans something, but are never going to go back to truly representing Fitzroy at AFL level. Maybe things might swing back in 20 years once the club and sport is stronger in QLD, and that can be more of a focus. but i also question whether or not long term there will be many Fitzroy fans past the current generation.

Not trying to stir up anything with this post, or saying i agree with it all, but it just seems to be the state of play.

Chopper - You like everyone else are entitled to your opinion - but I really suggest you re read this post and consider deleting and or amending some aspects of it as it really is putting one ahead of the other. Fitzroy supoporters have gone from being able to see their team 16-18 times a year in Melbourne to 4. We were bent over by the AFL - no one stuck up for us. Is it to much to ask that the merged club fly the flag or are we wasting our time?

 

[GingerGreatness]

but i also question whether or not long term there will be many Fitzroy fans past the current generation.

Self fulfilling prophecy right there chopper. If the club does not get more pro-active with respect to the AFL stepping on a clear clause in one of the club's foundation documents, then yep, soon enough it won't be a problem anymore.

For those getting antsy about those complaining - does the lack of games in Melbourne impact on you? You might make the effort to travel to games from Mars once a year. Great, good for you and even better for the club. But are there too many other Martians the club has a written commitment to or a merged history with? Does your commitment and practical capacity to travel from Mars mean those complaining are out of line? Not in my view.

It also makes no sense to me to say "look at the bigger picture" and "the club needs to focus on SEQ" and in the next breath say "but it's all the AFL's fault". Is this a club matter or an AFL matter?

Also, for those getting antsy - at what point is it ok by you for Vic fans to be outraged - bearing in mind 4 games is the least ever, post merger. 3 games? 2 games? No games?

I appreciate the ultimate decision is out of the clubs hands, but am disappointed by the club's response. Sympathy is fine - but going in to bat is where my expectation was. Not legal action, but something a little firmer than "we're disappointed, we'll organise a NAB cup game". Do you believe for a second that Eddie McGuire, for all his faults, would adopt the same attitude? Or would he rabbit on about it like a 2 bob watch to at least make his point?

It's more disturbing to me to have that statement released 2 weeks ago as to club concessions out of the blue, when that issue was flavour of the month - why go in hard on that (and out of nowhere), but then limp on another issue likely to cost the club members.

 

[adey115]

[quote="Matt_BL, post: 26286610, member: 119819"He expressed his disappointment. As a CEO of a club it would be unprofessional to express any further negative thoughts.

.[/quote]

I couldn't disagree more - Football is about passion. The CEO didn't show any in his messaging to the club's supporters. He absolutely could have expressed more, explained more, and had a crack over the issue.

 

[LionKing]

Self fulfilling prophecy right there chopper. If the club does not get more pro-active with respect to the AFL stepping on a clear clause in one of the club's foundation documents, then yep, soon enough it won't be a problem anymore.

For those getting antsy about those complaining - does the lack of games in Melbourne impact on you? You might make the effort to travel to games from Mars once a year. Great, good for you and even better for the club. But are there too many other Martians the club has a written commitment to or a merged history with? Does your commitment and practical capacity to travel from Mars mean those complaining are out of line? Not in my view.

It also makes no sense to me to say "look at the bigger picture" and "the club needs to focus on SEQ" and in the next breath say "but it's all the AFL's fault". Is this a club matter or an AFL matter?

Also, for those getting antsy - at what point is it ok by you for Vic fans to be outraged - bearing in mind 4 games is the least ever, post merger. 3 games? 2 games? No games?

I appreciate the ultimate decision is out of the clubs hands, but am disappointed by the club's response. Sympathy is fine - but going in to bat is where my expectation was. Not legal action, but something a little firmer than "we're disappointed, we'll organise a NAB cup game". Do you believe for a second that Eddie McGuire, for all his faults, would adopt the same attitude? Or would he rabbit on about it like a 2 bob watch to at least make his point?

It's more disturbing to me to have that statement released 2 weeks ago as to club concessions out of the blue, when that issue was flavour of the month - why go in hard on that (and out of nowhere), but then limp on another issue likely to cost the club members.

Brilliant post GG

 

[adey115]

Having 2 teams from different states merge was always going to be a pain in the arse, and realistically, we simply cannot be a genuine two team town, especially when we are based in the frontier for AFL in QLD, there are enough battles that need to be won here without worrying about the Melb side of things.

On this particular issue, I'm glad you're not on the Club Board.

We're talking about the issue of scheduling one more game in Melbourne. Its not a difficult issue....

We play 17 other teams. There are 22 games.
11 at Home.
1 at Metricon for the other Q Clash.
That leaves 10 other away games, from a choice of 16 other teams.

10 of those teams are located in Victoria - 62.5%.
We're asking that 60% of those other games are scheduled in 'Victoria' against Victorian teams. We're not asking for more than 62.5%. We're asking for less.
They've scheduled 7 out of 10 against Victorian teams. 70%. So it's not as if its impossible to schedule us as away against Victoria teams.

However, somehow they've found it wise to schedule two of those, somewhere else. Not in Queensland. Not in Victoria.

These are money decisions. The AFL said it themselves - they're trying to maximise revenue and crowds.

But what about "Club Culture" decisions?

We are the most unique Club in the League. Sydney is close with its Victoria roots - but we're the only merged entity. It means we've got the most unique "Club Culture" in the league, because of the merged entity coming from two cities.

So what of the other teams in the League and their scheduling at these 'neutral venues'? LEts look at GWS, GC, Freo, Port Adelaide, Adelaide, West Coast - do they have a genuine "Club Culture" positioning in Victoria?

The Hawks are scheduled to play GWS, Freo and the Lions in Tassie.
The Dees are scheduled to play the Lions in Darwin.
The Tigers are scheduled to play the GC in Cairns.
The Saints are scheduled to play Sydney in NZ.
THe Roos are scheduled to play Sydney and Port in Tassie
These are the Victoria Teams scheduled to play HOME games in foreign territories. (thanks Jed, nice work...)

We got two of those 8 games.

Why have Adelaide, West Coast got none? (WC travels more km's than others, so I can appreciate a decision there)
Why have Sydney got two, when there is a Club Cultural connection to Victoria???
Why have GC, GWS, Port and Freo only got one, when the have zero Club Cultural connection to Victoria, compared to our two?

How hard can it be to schedule GC in Tassie instead of us? Or Adelaide or GWS in Darwin? Not BOTH, just one of them is all I ask for? That decision has zero effect on our frontier status in Queensland.

So its an issue of "Club Culture". That is why I want the club to lobby DAMN HARD for it. That is why I want the club to be openly PIERCED OFF at the missing game. That is why I want the Club to outline what they've done to lobby the AFL properly and react in a pasionate manner. Show me the desire on this issue to look after our Club Culture.

One game. Not that hard. Its an issue of protecting our Club Culture. And if we just put it into the too hard basket, or if the club decides that it is one battle too many to try to win, then part of our Club Culture will eventually frizzle out.

 

[Roylion]

Having 2 teams from different states merge was always going to be a pain in the arse, and realistically, we simply cannot be a genuine two team town, especially when we are based in the frontier for AFL in QLD, there are enough battles that need to be won here without worrying about the Melb side of things. It seems that in the AFL's eyes, this wasn't really a merger, more of a take over.

Well we've known that for a while now. Kelly, Bowers and co. certainly believed that.

I think the path that the club is heading in is to have it's own new post merger identity, not wanting to be directly linked to either merged club.

The Brisbane Lions are essentially the Brisbane Bears re-badged.

It will be more of a heritage thing with links to Fitzroy, more so than representing Fitzroy itself. I think the club will continue to do what it can for Melb members, and try give the Fitzroy fans something, but are never going to go back to truly representing Fitzroy at AFL level.

Then why should I (or any other Melbourne based supporter) continue to support the Brisbane Lions? I might as well follow the Fitzroy Football Club in the VAFA and find another Melbourne based AFL club to support. Maybe North Melbourne?

Maybe things might swing back in 20 years once the club and sport is stronger in QLD, and that can be more of a focus. but i also question whether or not long term there will be many Fitzroy fans past the current generation.

My children are Fitzroy fans and they can barely remember Fitzroy in the AFL. We watch Fitzroy as much as we can on Saturdays in the winter and at the moment they support the Brisbane Lions in the AFL.

 

[Dylan12]

This brown nosing doesn't earn respect from the bigger clubs or the AFL and it doesn't appeal to the members and fans, so who the hell is he targeting it at?

Spot on...Malcolm Holmes has shown in recent weeks that he is nothing more than a Michael Bowers clone who is completely insensitive and out of touch of the club's history and uniqueness. The quicker this clown is moved on the better.

 

[Cousin Jed]

These are the Victoria Teams scheduled to play HOME games in foreign territories. (I don't think I've missed any)

.

North in Hobart

 

[Dylan12]

Ridiculous. The CEO and the club absolutely have a role to advocate for their supporters and members.

Great post Tom. I get the distinct impression that Malcolm Holmes wound't know the history of our club if it bit him on his arse and his recent attitude and comments in regards to a few topics is evidence of that.

 

[adey115]

North in Hobart

Thanks Jed. Well spotted. I've adapted the above to reflect that. It doesn't really change my argument, and it makes the Swans argument even more compelling.

 

[notliondown]

What compromise have you suffered? There are still 12 games in Queensland next year aren't there? 11 home games at the Gabba and an away game against the Gold Coast?

I guess what I was trying to explain albeit badly was, that no matter how passionate or how long you've been a supporter or what your roots are, there are circumstances which conspire that make it impossible for lots of members not to be able to see more than 4 or 5 games a year... be it distance or cost or availability or whatever. It wouldnt matter if there was 20 games a year theres a core group of Qld members who wont make it too any more games than a Vic member for exactly the same reasons the Vic members wont see more. After all theres nothing stopping either group of us paying for flights and accommodation etc out of thier own pockets if thats our desire.

BUT - and please dont just look at that paragraph and dismiss this one - that in no way makes this situation right. It is a slap in the face - or if it still contains any legal standing now after every little chip thats been taken out of it, a breach of the merger agreement - to the Vic members. You have an expectation of that agreement being met and you are right to be angry and disappointed about it not being so.

Personally it does make me wonder about what control we have over our destiny and future as a club - and what influence we as a club are being allowed to have on it. Do we have any control left at the moment given our financial situation or are we simply going to be dictated too from on high? It just seems to me that its the AFL who seem intent on watering down or disregarding the spirit of the merger. That the almighty corporate $ has become far more important than a lot of issues - not just this one. Why not direct that anger toward them?

I guess my big fear is that if we as a member base appear fractured than whatever unified voice and power we may have once had to right those wrongs and achieve a balance will progressively get more diminished. I guess all I was trying to say is that I have a feeling that the club and Holmes are the messenger not the enemy. And whether you agree with his actual statement or not hes not the reason we have 5 Victorian games. He's probably going to quickly learn the passion you guys have... and it may change the way he presents his public face over time... but after 12 months in the job its a little unfair to expect him to understand completely the depth of emotion that goes with AFL and its heritage.

The sentiment that is coming through from some of the Brisbane members here is that, the Victorian members/supporters are whingeing over losing a game in Victoria & that we should get over it; forget about if you will. It's only a minor issue!

I'm afraid it goes a lot deeper than that for me.

I wonder how the Brisbane based members/supporters would feel in 2014, if the AFL scheduled 9 matches at the Gabba, 6 in Victoria & the rest scattered all over the place ?

I hope thats not how I have come across in my posts LL... I understand its a big issue - especially the principle side of it. My apologies if thats how it appeared - I know you guys are feeling more and more removed from what seems to be the clubs decisions and directions and I'm sure that must make you wonder about the future.

Its your last line that rings the bell to me because honestly I see that happening. I can see a time where the non powerhouse clubs are the ones continually sent to the boondocks to "promote" the game. Will we ever see the Pies or Blues or Hawks or Dons flogged all over the country side? Will they ever play away as much as us? I doubt it. And as to the effect that will have on the Lions viability I don't want to imagine.

 

[ZoBlitz]

Spot on...Malcolm Holmes has shown in recent weeks that he is nothing more than a Michael Bowers clone who is completely insensitive and out of touch of the club's history and uniqueness. The quicker this clown is moved on the better.

I sometimes think the only CEO you'd be happy with is yourself.

 

[_Gin]

Geeze Chopper is catching some grief. Reread his post, he doesn't support this view he is just putting forward a view on what has been happening.

I personally agree with him, lets get more supporter backlash at the AFL as they are the ones who have the control and can fix this. We don't know how hard the board lobbied the AFL, but they do have to toe the line in public and probably can't afford to be stepping on too many toes at the moment with our financial woes.

 

[possum8]

Spot on...Malcolm Holmes has shown in recent weeks that he is nothing more than a Michael Bowers clone who is completely insensitive and out of touch of the club's history and uniqueness. The quicker this clown is moved on the better.

Not even close to Bowers. Bowers had absolutely no interest in the club what so ever. I have had a few in-depth discussions with Malcolm over a few issues i have had with the club and he has always replied in a straight forward and honest manner. He is good value! However every time i have talked to Bowers he has dodged questions and showed that the role he was in was just another job. Also Bowers introduced the Paddle pop lions jersey, that in my book is the biggest fail in Brisbane Lions short history.

 

[western royboy]

When people ask me who I barrack for, (as is usually Question No.3 when meeting someone for the first time for a chat here in Victoria), I respond as follows;

"I barracked for Fitzroy all my life so now I'm a Brisbane supporter" - I have said it so many times that it's an automatic response.

I have three kids, my first was born in 2001 a few weeks after that glorious day. When looking for a name "Michael Jonathon" was considered strongly (by me) but ultimately passed. He is now 11 but as I have written in other posts he converted to the Cats when he commenced school despite being showered in maroon and blue jumpers and the like.

My two youngest are Lions and I'm proud of that fact, but I am starting to wonder if it's right to brainwash them to support a club that they realistically will hardly ever get to watch play live - because in essence that's what its all about. I can vividly recall Fitzroy v South Melbourne at the Junction Oval in 1979 - my first game live.

As the father of a Cats supporter and an MCC member, my eldest lad has seen more games live of his side in one year than No.2 has of the Lions in his life, it's a trend that is set to continue.

I will always be a Lion, but if you burn the younger Vic Lions supporters then there is no future and it will be just as many had predicted way back in 1996.

The club needs to show it has a spine and not a lap dog - regardless of what assistance the AFL is providing us.

 

[adey115]

Very familiar comments their Royboy...

My line is "well I'm an old Royboy, so I'm on the Brisbane Lions".

That battle you face with kids is what this is about. There won't be future generations of supporters generated down here if the link can't be maintained, and seeing games is a vital component to that.

 

[Dylan12]

I sometimes think the only CEO you'd be happy with is yourself.

Can you please provide me with evidence ZoBlitz where Holmes has shown his support and understanding towards the merger agreement and willing to fight for it? I look forward to your comments.

 

[western royboy]

Geeze Chopper is catching some grief. Reread his post, he doesn't support this view he is just putting forward a view on what has been happening.

I personally agree with him, lets get more supporter backlash at the AFL as they are the ones who have the control and can fix this. We don't know how hard the board lobbied the AFL, but they do have to toe the line in public and probably can't afford to be stepping on too many toes at the moment with our financial woes.

The Execs represents the clubs members and supporters - it is they that should act on our behalf, rather than the lunatic fringe as most of us are painted.

If you want to get onto the AFL here is the link, but the club needs to come out more strongly, orb else Bowers and Kelly might as well still be in charge - and you know where that was heading!.

http://www.afl.com.au/Default.aspx?tabid=10302

 

[adey115]

I don't believe that Malcolm Holmes is anywhere near in the Bowers league.

But we want someone who is prepared to go into bat where required, or show that we had a decent crack when required.... I personally don't feel we got that with this issue.

 

[alscotoz]

Excuse this question it's probably been answered. Just had a very quick glance through 2013 fixture. is it correct we have 4 games in Melb and one in Geelong next year? Haven't got time to read back through thread.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Loyal Lion]

I hope thats not how I have come across in my posts LL... I understand its a big issue - especially the principle side of it. My apologies if thats how it appeared - I know you guys are feeling more and more removed from what seems to be the clubs decisions and directions and I'm sure that must make you wonder about the future.

No probs notliondown. Certainly didn't have you in mind there mate.

There is a bit of passion floating around at present...I probably showed a bit too much yesterday

Gotta admit, I was fuming when I saw the fixture for the first time.

This is a divisive issue amongst our membership. It's good to have a robust, healthy debate about it, without the need for personal attacks or sniping each other.

 

[ZoBlitz]

Can you please provide me with evidence ZoBlitz where Holmes has shown his support and understanding towards the merger agreement and willing to fight for it? I look forward to your comments.

Here's the thing: I would take your concerns with more seriousness if you weren't always looking for the version of events that painted the club in the worst possible light. Malcolm Holmes could come out tomorrow and make a statement showing his support for the merger and you'd still find some fault with it. I remember in this year's trade week when you were ranting about Martin possibly being picked up for pick 30 for several posts and then when we ended up picking him up for a pittance you went off about Hudson being forced off the list for Martin. Always looking for the negative.

The disappointing thing is that I quite enjoy your posts when you avoid the topics of club administration/trade week/list management.

My personal opinion is that while I am disappointed that we didn't get the required Melbourne games, I have no reason to believe that our club could have done anything better than it is already has to influence the AFL on this issue. I, like everyone here, have no idea what discussions occurred between the club and the AFL but I prefer to give the club the benefit of the doubt. Some may see that as naive but I don't go through life assuming the negative continually.

While some would have preferred to hear Holmes crack into the AFL about the fixture in the media, I personally don't see the point of that. The fixture is already done and to me it seems like unnecessary posturing. He made it clear that the club was disappointed, that the AFL had made clear some of the factors that went into the decision, that the club would seek to "over-deliver" for the Victorian fans to compensate them for this and that the club would lobby for six games again next season. I feel that this was all that could be expected considering the situation. The AFL make the fixture, not us and to pot the club when the AFL is to blame seems wrong to me. I don't see how the club making public statements aimed at the fixture would do anything at all in affecting how the AFL does the fixture next time around. I'd be hopeful that there are discussions behind the scenes about it though.

 

[western royboy]

No probs notliondown. Certainly didn't have you in mind there mate.

There is a bit of passion floating around at present...I probably showed a bit too much yesterday

Gotta admit, I was fuming when I saw the fixture for the first time.

This is a divisive issue amongst our membership. It's good to have a robust, healthy debate about it, without the need for personal attacks or sniping each other.

It's passion that kept Fitzroy going and will keep it going, we got shafted we know that, but we don't want to keep on getting reamed by the AFL. We are either a merged club or we are not. Sadly, many Fitzroy people elected not to jump on because they saw it as a merger in name only. Some of us did and I am happy with that.

But if the club doesn't truly believe that we are a merged club and its only keen on tokenism then clearly, I have been a fool and should probably opt out.

 

[western royboy]

My personal opinion is that while I am disappointed that we didn't get the required Melbourne games, I have no reason to believe that our club could have done anything better than it is already has to influence the AFL on this issue. I, like everyone here, have no idea what discussions occurred between the club and the AFL but I prefer to give the club the benefit of the doubt. Some may see that as naive but I don't go through life assuming the negative continually.

While some would have preferred to hear Holmes crack into the AFL about the fixture in the media, I personally don't see the point of that. The fixture is already done and to me it seems like unnecessary posturing. He made it clear that the club was disappointed, that the AFL had made clear some of the factors that went into the decision, that the club would seek to "over-deliver" for the Victorian fans to compensate them for this and that the club would lobby for six games again next season. I feel that this was all that could be expected considering the situation. The AFL make the fixture, not us and to pot the club when the AFL is to blame seems wrong to me. I don't see how the club making public statements aimed at the fixture would do anything at all in affecting how the AFL does the fixture next time around. I'd be hopeful that there are discussions behind the scenes about it though.

The six games in Melbourne was part of the merger agreement - I can live with 5 in Melbourne and 1 in Geelong, but given the AFL has the greatest piece of fixturing software in the known Universe, you plug this in as the first condition and away you go.

Holmes response (given the History) needed to be stronger. I can't see how you can "over deliver" benefits when we can't watch them play live. Lobby all you want, we need to be insisting on the conditions of the agreement being met. The Fitzroy Footy Club can do without the hassle of going to court each time a condition of the merger is broken and it's high time the Brisbane Lions stood up for the Vic supporters ad not leave it to Fitzroy.