2013 Team

[pulpdriver]

The tagger is a role of the past.

Sydney was the only team in the top 4 of 2012 to deploy a tagger (of sorts). Craig Bird was their shut down man; but his ave. 16 disposals @ 75% efficiency and swapping between midfield and forward line assignments differ from the role that Raines plays, especially at centre clearances.

I'd have Harwood in ahead of him if Voss insists in having a shut down player.

Re. Raines, I can't see why he gets a game if he can't kick properly, doesn't pressure his opponent, doesn't tackle and doesn't clear the ball when he's in the centre clearances .

If Raines gets a game ahead of the likes of Yeo, Lester, Harwood, Docherty etc. it's a bloody disgrace.

He compares relatively favorably in his last five games and against top 5 sides.

LAST 5 GAMES

D - CP - T - G - C - I50s - DE

16.8 - 6.6 - 4.4 - 0.6 - 3.2 - 3.8 - 68.75%

AGAINST TOP 5 SIDES

D - CP - T - G - C - I50s - DE

16.8 - 6.6 - 4 - 0.5 - 2.8 - 2.3 - 66.52%

 

[Panthera]

I agree with you regarding Raines's disposal efficiency. I used to cringe when he got the ball.

He had a kicking efficiency of 50% last year - bottom 5% in the AFL

 

[BigCat2]

Instead of a 'best' team, I'll list what I think will be our Round 1 team:

Golby Merrett Patfull
Adcock Maguire Hanley
Rich Moloney Rockliff
Zorko Martin Bewick
Cornelius Brown Green

Longer Redden Raines

Lester McGrath Karnezis Beams

EMG: Polkinghorne Yeo Docherty


By the end of the year, I expect Polec and Mayes to be right up there too.
Too hard to predict with KPPs like Lisle, Michael, Clarke.

Depth!!

 

[SizeMatters]

There is no place for taggers in the modern game. Would rather 4 midfielders that create play and put pressure on the opposition through that means.

 

[Luke Kathutian]

I think with Raines its all a matter of perspective. He did good work for the team when we were light on for midfielders and his rubbish disposal efficiency was to a degree offset by the fact that a lot of his team-mates weren't much better. There was also the need to limit the damage when top sides threatened to tear us apart.

He probably starts 1. But maybe the time when Raines is pushed out of the side might be a marker for when Brisbane goes from a rebuilding side to a finals contender that backs itself to win the ball and control possession. Actually think he might get pushed out as soon as Black comes back in if Beams maintains his form. Round 1 for me:

Patful Merret Docherty
Adcock Maguire Golby
Hanley Rich Karnezis
Bewick Brown Zorko
McGrath Martin Cornelius

Ruck: Longer, Redden, Moloney

I/C: Rockliffe, Raines, Beams

Sub: Green

Docherty might still have some development to do but the lions need his ability to read the play and his kicking coming out of defence. Blokes like Yeo/Polky/Harwood are handy players but none of them boast that zone-piercing, accurate, reliable disposal by foot. Doc is a key part of our future and needs to get senior experience at some point... might as well be now.

 

[Caiphus]

I think Raines's form is on an upward curve and I have no problems including him in the side. I don't think he is an automatic inclusion and the fact that we have the depth now to put pressure on players that don't perform is only going to have a positive effect on the team overall. A lot of Raines's poor disposal was a lack of composure in my opinion, and composure was one of the largest areas he improved in over the last 3 games of the season.

 

[cjwalkley]

Saying Sydney is the only top team using a tagger is a fallacy.

Scott Selwood says hi.

 

[Lionwest]

Saying Sydney is the only top team using a tagger is a fallacy.

Scott Selwood says hi.

Scott Selwood did his apprenticeship as a tagger when the eagles were rebuilding their side back into being a finals contender. Evolved from doing hard tags, to softer tags and these days plays as a genuine midfielder, the eagles don't really employ a genuine tagger anymore rather backing their ruck/mids to come out on top much like most of the other finals sides.

The question for Raines is can he evolve as the rest of the Lions midfield does?

 

[Ironmonger]

Saying Sydney is the only top team using a tagger is a fallacy.

Scott Selwood says hi.

This isn't the first time in the off-season I've heard Scott Selwood referred to as a tagger, but from what I saw of the Eagles in the second half of 2012 it seemed to be Adam Selwood doing the tagging duties. Was I just seeing things?

 

[cjwalkley]

This isn't the first time in the off-season I've heard Scott Selwood referred to as a tagger, but from what I saw of the Eagles in the second half of 2012 it seemed to be Adam Selwood doing the tagging duties. Was I just seeing things?

They actually share the run with roles, depending on the player to be nullified.

At an educated guess, I'd suggest last year it was about 60% Scott and 40% Adam. Adam will take the back line tagging duties predominantly though.

 

[cjwalkley]

Scott Selwood did his apprenticeship as a tagger when the eagles were rebuilding their side back into being a finals contender. Evolved from doing hard tags, to softer tags and these days plays as a genuine midfielder, the eagles don't really employ a genuine tagger anymore rather backing their ruck/mids to come out on top much like most of the other finals sides.

The question for Raines is can he evolve as the rest of the Lions midfield does?

I'd suggest Scott Selwood is predominantly used as a run with midfielder, but has become so good at his role his possession counts are much higher now than 2-3 years ago.

He isn't your run of the mill, scragging type tagger such as a Steve Baker. He will often back himself in to beat his opponent to the ball and has great ability to work offensively when WCE have the ball.

He will generally have a run with role however on the best midfielder of the opposition.

 

[POBT]

Re: taggers.

Geelong used T. Hunt and occasionally Kelly.

Collingwood used Wellingham.

Hawthorn used Shiel.

St Kilda used Jones.

Freo uses Crowley and he won their B&F.

It is untrue that the tagger is dead. It may be true that more is expected of them than simply nullifying the opposition. IMO, it is valid to question whether Raines can lift his game offensively. I think it is premature to write him off just yet. I don't think an average of 20 touches a game is beyond him, to be honest. And, as long as he's also nullifying a good opponent, then that will absolutely keep him in the best 22.

 

[Judge]

Re: taggers.

Geelong used T. Hunt and occasionally Kelly.

Collingwood used Wellingham.

Hawthorn used Shiel.

St Kilda used Jones.

Freo uses Crowley and he won their B&F.

It is untrue that the tagger is dead. It may be true that more is expected of them than simply nullifying the opposition. IMO, it is valid to question whether Raines can lift his game offensively. I think it is premature to write him off just yet. I don't think an average of 20 touches a game is beyond him, to be honest. And, as long as he's also nullifying a good opponent, then that will absolutely keep him in the best 22.

Before reading this page it wouldn't have occurred to me that Raines isn't an automatic selection in our top 22, given his success in the nullifying/tagging role last year, but I can see the merit of the argument that we will have taken a step forward in our development when we don't need that type of player in our team.

At the moment, however, I think he is indispensable against the better teams at least. Do we really want, or can we afford, our top mids going head to head with guys like Josh Kennedy, Pendlebury or Cotchin (not that I'm saying Richmond is one of the better teams!) this year? I'm presently more comfortable with Rainesy playing a shut-down role on these guys rather than playing an extra mid with better skills, but I can see that changing before too long if we are genuinely on the improve.

Also, wasn't Raines BOG against Port, helping to dig us out of a big hole, in the second-last round of 2012? Some short memories here...

 

[Panthera]

Seems a lot on here accepting mediocrity and wanting Raines in the team; disappointing.

S.Selwood is not a tagger, he was the #1 ranked Eagle last year in disposals, centre clearances and goal assists. Comparing him with Raines is ridiculous

I think it'd be better to watch a few WC games cjwalkley, rather than assuming Selwood is a tagger just because it was part of his introduction into AFL a few years back

 

[Panthera]

Before reading this page it wouldn't have occurred to me that Raines isn't an automatic selection in our top 22, given his success in the nullifying/tagging role last year, but I can see the merit of the argument that we will have taken a step forward in our development when we don't need that type of player in our team.

At the moment, however, I think he is indispensable against the better teams at least. Do we really want, or can we afford, our top mids going head to head with guys like Josh Kennedy, Pendlebury or Cotchin (not that I'm saying Richmond is one of the better teams!) this year? I'm presently more comfortable with Rainesy playing a shut-down role on these guys rather than playing an extra mid with better skills, but I can see that changing before too long if we are genuinely on the improve.

Also, wasn't Raines BOG against Port, helping to dig us out of a big hole, in the second-last round of 2012? Some short memories here...

Yes, I'd love to see Josh Kennedy v Redden, Pendlebury v Rich, Cotchin v Rockliff!!! Why not? It's a required part of their development from B grade to potential A grade. What's the point of having D Grade Raines reducing the effectiveness of A graders by 5%, when our good young mids are the ones who can hurt the opposition with their better skills.

 

[cjwalkley]

Seems a lot on here accepting mediocrity and wanting Raines in the team; disappointing.

S.Selwood is not a tagger, he was the #1 ranked Eagle last year in disposals, centre clearances and goal assists. Comparing him with Raines is ridiculous

I think it'd be better to watch a few WC games cjwalkley, rather than assuming Selwood is a tagger just because it was part of his introduction into AFL a few years back

I have seen over 50% of WCE's games live and in their entirety over the past two years, and parts of many more . (I am a footy tragic)

If you don't think Scott Selwood is still a run with player, maybe you need to watch him a bit closer. He will be allocated a player each match, and even though he backs himself in beat his man, the tell tale signs are he will line up on this player at all stoppages and interchanges when his allocated player tests. The exception being if the player heads deeper forward, and Adam Selwood will take up a more defensive tag.

 

[POBT]

Yes, I'd love to see Josh Kennedy v Redden, Pendlebury v Rich, Cotchin v Rockliff!!! Why not? It's a required part of their development from B grade to potential A grade. What's the point of having D Grade Raines reducing the effectiveness of A graders by 5%, when our good young mids are the ones who can hurt the opposition with their better skills.

Just about every side uses a less talented, less damaging midfielder in a defensive mid role. I'm not sure why we would be any different. The question is whether Raines is the right choice.

 

[cjwalkley]

BTW Panthera, while I am a Raines fan, I believe he does need to improve his offensive output and effectiveness to remain in the 22.

He needs to work to his disposal limitations, such as a player like Daniel Cross has done.

 

[weevil]

Someone tell Simon Black he has only been imagining that hard tag he has been on the receiving end of all these years.

 

[Judge]

Yes, I'd love to see Josh Kennedy v Redden, Pendlebury v Rich, Cotchin v Rockliff!!! Why not? It's a required part of their development from B grade to potential A grade. What's the point of having D Grade Raines reducing the effectiveness of A graders by 5%, when our good young mids are the ones who can hurt the opposition with their better skills.

Panthera, that's where we differ.

At the moment I'd rather have Raines, or an equivalent, tagging Kennedy and trying to slow him down, leaving one of the R's to run with say Hannebery or Jack, as on balance their list of quality mids runs deeper than ours and we're better off trying to silence one of their guns. I can't see how playing one tagger impedes the development of our best mids, although it does cost the next-in-line mid a game

When that quality balance changes in the future, or where the balance is in our favour now, I agree that a tagger might be superfluous but most weeks this season a tagger (probably Raines) will be one of the first picked.

 

[weevil]

The "tags" against Selwood, Dal Santo & Cotchin are the only games that his opponent had well below their 2012 average disposal rate - all three games the Lions lost, two by big margins. The A-grade guns in Swan, Pendlebury, Dangerfield, Ablett & Murphy obviously had no problem with him.

The players listed cop hard tags pretty much every week. If your tagger keeps them at or below their average stats for a game he is doing a good job.

 

[lionshine]

Is the fact that Lester has been left out of the Nab Cup grand final side a fairly good indicator that he will not be selected in Round 1? I also wonder if the that fact that Yeo and Docherty have played every Nab Cup game so far and have both been selected for the Grand Final an indicator that they could both be selected in the Round 1 team or they are competing for the 1 spot and the club is giving them both an equal chance to make their case for selection. I personally would not be against them both getting a game but at who's expense?

 

[Panthera]

The players listed cop hard tags pretty much every week. If your tagger keeps them at or below their average stats for a game he is doing a good job.

But it's to the disadvantage of the other mids in the centre square when we are trying to extract. Raines being in there puts us on the back foot from the get-go. Fact is that we've been shocking in there for years and he's a major reason for it

I can't agree with him playing in our team.

How many teams looking at finals would have him playing for them?

 

[patfullfankezz]

But it's to the disadvantage of the other mids in the centre square when we are trying to extract. Raines being in there puts us on the back foot from the get-go. Fact is that we've been shocking in there for years and he's a major reason for it

I can't agree with him playing in our team.

How many teams looking at finals would have him playing for them?

Anyone playing a team with Gary Ablett in it.

 

[dlanod]

Anyone playing a team with Gary Ablett in it.

A certain J. Selwood would be pretty damn happy at not having to face up against him either.