2013 Team

[weevil]

I'm guessing people are now going to stop suggesting that Bewick is in danger of being dropped.

 

[jackess]

I'm guessing people are now going to stop suggesting that Bewick is in danger of being dropped.

For me Ash is the one who's now in danger of being dropped. Can't afford to string too man average matches in a row.

 

[Lace Out]

For me Ash is the one who's now in danger of being dropped. Can't afford to string too man average matches in a row.

I can't remember Ash impressing too much in a pre season.

He is going to be great for us if spending more time forward.

 

[weevil]

I can't remember Ash impressing too much in a pre season.

He is going to be great for us if spending more time forward.

Think he is getting by on the fact he is a senior player. I don't think he is consistent enough to be an automatic selection any more. If he is fit, focused and committed he is a real asset, otherwise he is a liability. Think he has had it too easy in the past.

 

[POBT]

B: Adcock Merrett Lester
.

Has Lester played much as the 3rd defender this pre season?

Your argument about Goose looks like being justified, based on the comments from the after match function.

I dunno though. I don't think I quite have the confidence in Lester taking on a good third tall forward. I am a big Lester fan but I'm not convinced he's good enough overhead as a defender to play on quality players.

It might be an overly defensive move but playing Goose alongside the other two gives me comfort that we'll cope better if the ball comes inside 50 often.

Against the Dogs it may work. Not sure it is a risk worth taking against the better forward lines.

Then again, how many clubs play 3 genuine tall forwards? West Coast and....

 

[Grimreepah]

Has Lester played much as the 3rd defender this pre season?

Your argument about Goose looks like being justified, based on the comments from the after match function.

I dunno though. I don't think I quite have the confidence in Lester taking on a good third tall forward. I am a big Lester fan but I'm not convinced he's good enough overhead as a defender to play on quality players.

It might be an overly defensive move but playing Goose alongside the other two gives me comfort that we'll cope better if the ball comes inside 50 often.

Against the Dogs it may work. Not sure it is a risk worth taking against the better forward lines.

Then again, how many clubs play 3 genuine tall forwards? West Coast and....

The worry imo wouldn't neccessarily be Lester being beaten by the third tall, it would be if Merrett or Patfull are struggling there is less flexibility to rotate players around. Lester going up against the 2nd tall might then become a problem. Could swing Martin back, but that messes with your structures. It's a trade off, but I just think Lester adds more.

 

[lionshine]

I think we will see a lot more structural changes this year because we can now afford to with the depth we have. That back line has so many players vying for roughly 3 spots. Adcock, Golby, Yeo, Docherty, Harwood, Polkinghorne. Adcock and Golby are locks. I don't think Polkinghorne deserves a spot over Yeo and Docherty. Harwood has had an injury interrupted Nab Cup so he won't be selected. That leaves Yeo and Docherty. Originally I had Docherty but than I watched a few games from the end of last year and I remembered how highly I rated Yeo and how much potential he has. I would choose Yeo for Round 1. I think he and Docherty have both earn't it through their respective pre seasons but I would go Yeo.

 

[POBT]

The worry imo wouldn't neccessarily be Lester being beaten by the third tall, it would be if Merrett or Patfull are struggling there is less flexibility to rotate players around. Lester going up against the 2nd tall might then become a problem. Could swing Martin back, but that messes with your structures. It's a trade off, but I just think Lester adds more.

It is a trade off. Perhaps I still have a mindset that the ball is going to go inside our defensive 50 an awful lot and therefore I want a wall there. If we feel we can restrict the opposition before they get forward, we can afford to take a more flexible and attacking defensive structure in.

Geelong were the model of how to structure up in the modern game. Unfortunately, it is not often a side has a defender of the calibre of Scarlett, who allowed the Cats to play three genuine tall defenders and not lose anything on attack or when the ball hit the deck.

 

[Matt_BL]

Don't think Leuenberger will play Round 1, won't have the fitness base. Think it will be Billy and Stef Martin doing the ruck work. Can't remember who did the second rucking last night, but Billy can jump ridiculously high. Probably an NBA standard leap on him.Come to think of it we were smart to draft Longer as if we didn't have him we would be a bit weaker structurally.

I'm certain Lester will be in the side so Goose may miss out but i think they will still go with 3 tall defenders and Lester will be more of a utility. McGrath was very undisiplined last night but i think he'll be in the team for his pace and experience. I've done it earlier but based on what we know now the team may be:

B: Adcock Merrett Patfull
HB:Golby Maguire Docherty
C: Hanley Rich Karnezis
HF: Zorko Martin Rockliff
FF: Bewick Brown Corneilius
R: Longer Redden Moloney
I/C: McGrath Lester Beams Green

Inclusions once fit: Black, Leuenberger
Unlucky to miss: Polkinghorne, Raines, Yeo, Lisle, Paparone
Possible chances to play early in season: Polec, Mayes, Crisp, Harwood (?), Banfield

So some definite depth there, with Staker to possibly come back in but im betting not till Round 10 or 11. Probably the only issue with our depth is while there is alot of talent there is also some inexperience so say if Karnezis dropped off it would be a similar replacement in Polec but no experience would be gained or lost as they are about equal. I'm hoping that Mayes can get a few games but we'll see.

 

[lionshine]

Don't think Leuenberger will play Round 1, won't have the fitness base. Think it will be Billy and Stef Martin doing the ruck work. Can't remember who did the second rucking last night, but Billy can jump ridiculously high. Probably an NBA standard leap on him.Come to think of it we were smart to draft Longer as if we didn't have him we would be a bit weaker structurally.

I'm certain Lester will be in the side so Goose may miss out but i think they will still go with 3 tall defenders and Lester will be more of a utility. McGrath was very undisiplined last night but i think he'll be in the team for his pace and experience. I've done it earlier but based on what we know now the team may be:

B: Adcock Merrett Patfull
HB:Golby Maguire Docherty
C: Hanley Rich Karnezis
HF: Zorko Martin Rockliff
FF: Bewick Brown Corneilius
R: Longer Redden Moloney
I/C: McGrath Lester Beams Green

Inclusions once fit: Black, Leuenberger
Unlucky to miss: Polkinghorne, Raines, Yeo, Lisle, Paparone
Possible chances to play early in season: Polec, Mayes, Crisp, Harwood (?), Banfield

So some definite depth there, with Staker to possibly come back in but im betting not till Round 10 or 11. Probably the only issue with our depth is while there is alot of talent there is also some inexperience so say if Karnezis dropped off it would be a similar replacement in Polec but no experience would be gained or lost as they are about equal. I'm hoping that Mayes can get a few games but we'll see.

Replace Docherty with Yeo and Lester with Raines and you have my Round 1 team. Going to be hard to squeeze someone out when Black returns. I suspect Leuenberger will just replace Longer eventually.

 

[lionshine]

Ok after three rounds of the Nab Cup this is my team for Round 1. I have not included Black and Leuenberger because I doubt they will be ready in time for Round 1:

B Golby Merrett Patfull
HB Adcock Maguire Yeo
C Rich Rockliff Hanley
HF Bewick Brown Zorko
F McGrath Martin Cornelius
R Longer Redden Raines
I Moloney Beams Karnezis
S Green
E Lester Polkinghorne Polec

Docherty, Harwood and Crisp just missing out.

I think this side has the potential to do a lot of damage. Will be hard to fit Black, Lester and Staker in sometime this year. I really want Lester and Docherty in the side but I just can't fit them in. If Polec and Mayes were fit and firing I wouldn't mind having them running around for the seniors either.

This is the team I think Voss will select as opposed to the team I selected above:

B Golby Merrett Patfull
HB Adcock Maguire Polkinghorne
C Rockliff Rich Hanley
HF Zorko Brown Bewick
F McGrath Martin Cornelius
R Longer Redden Raines
I Moloney Lester Beams
S Green

Karnezis and Yeo out Lester and Polkinghorne in for Vossy's team compared to mine. At the same time though I think he will have Karnezis in so it is very difficult to select this team. I honestly think Polkinghorne is not good enough to get a game in our side this year.

LS.

 

[Panthera]

I think 2013 should / will be the last year that the likes of Raines, Polkinghorne, McKeever, O'Brien are regulars in our team; there is so much talent coming through, these guys won't be in our best team moving forward.

My best possible 2013 team:

Adcock Merrett Patfull

Hanley Maguire Golby

Rockliff Rich Karnezis

Zorko Brown Polec

Green Cornelius McGrath

Leuey Redden Moloney

Black - Bewick - Staker - Yeo

 

[jonesy101]

my starting team is:

B: Yeo Merret Golby
HB: Patful Adcock Mcgrath
C: Rich Black Redden
HF: Zorko Rockliff lisle
F: Green Brown Cornelias
R: Polec Raines Longer
I: Leunberger not sure whe else though?

 

[Leuy LongerCombo]

For me the biggest unknown heading into the Nab cup was going to be our Forward line structure, think a few question have been answered.

Patful , Merritt, Doc/Yeo
Golby, Maguire, Adcock
Hanley, Rich, Karnezis
Bewick, Brown, Zorko
Ace, Martin, Green
Longer, Redden, Moloney
Rockliff, Raines with Mcgrath / Lester / Beams making the last interchange / Sub up

I went with the stock standard Back 6. Doc or Yeo playing the shutdown small role for mine, not really fussed who gets the gig both look promising and both will get games through out the year, Polkinghorne maybe an option for that spot too but I think he'd be a little slow.
Clarke has looked good in the preseason games, I could see him or Stakes playing a few games while Goose has his mandatory few games out a year.

Just loaded the middle up with our best players, with Rocky and Raines rotating off the bench hopefully equates to better numbers this year. Was really impressed with Redden's preformances in the first few Nab games, didnt get huge numbers but showed a lot of composer in traffic and his kicking is coming along nicely expecting a massive year.

Our forward line in previous years has really lacked options, Aces great early form is easily the best thing to come out of the NAB cup for mine. Martin showed enough in the Pies game, was worried about his hands in the earlier games but held on to a few on the weekend. Mcgrath is frustrating but everyone knows he capible of kicking 5 in a half, not 100% sure if he fits in the team at the moment.

I like that forward line, because I think everyone of them are capable of kicking 30+ for the season and on their day kicking a bag. Couple that with the potential for Rich, Rockliff, Karnezis and Hanley (if playing on the wing) to be goal a game players I think we have a side that can actually kick 15+ goals regularly (Redden and Moloney wont be dragging their feet either)

One thing that excites me and annoys at the same time is that team doesnt contain some of our prized picked players in Leuy / Polec and Mayes. They really are the cream on top.
It's hard not to get excited this year

 

[Paulborracho]

I think 2013 should / will be the last year that the likes of Raines, Polkinghorne, McKeever, O'Brien are regulars in our team; there is so much talent coming through, these guys won't be in our best team moving forward.

My best possible 2013 team:

Adcock Merrett Patfull

Hanley Maguire Golby

Rockliff Rich Karnezis

Zorko Brown Polec

Green Cornelius McGrath

Leuey Redden Moloney

Black - Bewick - Staker - Yeo

Raines??????? You are kidding Panthera!! He has been fantastic since he joined us as a shutdown tagger. Can't see anyone else stepping in to do as good. Any suggestions?

 

[Panthera]

Raines??????? You are kidding Panthera!! He has been fantastic since he joined us as a shutdown tagger. Can't see anyone else stepping in to do as good. Any suggestions?

I think he's been ok limiting the opposition midfielders at times, but I don't think the job he's done has been fantastic. I can't remember when a superstar mid he's been on has had less than 20 possessions. Our clearances have been deplorable over the past two seasons, ranked bottom 2 in the league! Raines is a major reason for this; he averages only 2 clearances / 8 kicks a game, with only half of those effective, but somehow we persist with him at centre clearances (he attended the 2nd most centre clearances for us last year ). We need to start thinking about our own structures more than the opposition as obviously it's not working when it's 4 v 4 in the centre square as we lose the majority of these contests.

I'd go for Moloney - Black - Redden (along with the ruckman), with Rich, Rocky, Beams, Karnezis, Zorko, Green rotating through there. Raines out

This Friday night, it could be Judd, Murphy & McLean in the centre square - I can't see Raines getting to the ball or limiting them in the clearance game. Stats prove he's a liability in there.

If you have a defensive mindset in the centre square bounces, you get smashed! As we have been in recent seasons

 

[pulpdriver]

I think he's been ok limiting the opposition midfielders at times, but I don't think the job he's done has been fantastic. I can't remember when a superstar mid he's been on has had less than 20 possessions. Our clearances have been deplorable over the past two seasons, ranked bottom 2 in the league! Raines is a major reason for this; he averages only 2 clearances / 8 kicks a game, with only half of those effective, but somehow we persist with him at centre clearances (he attended the 2nd most centre clearances for us last year ). We need to start thinking about our own structures more than the opposition as obviously it's not working when it's 4 v 4 in the centre square as we lose the majority of these contests.

I'd go for Moloney - Black - Redden (along with the ruckman), with Rich, Rocky, Beams, Karnezis, Zorko, Green rotating through there. Raines out

This Friday night, it could be Judd, Murphy & McLean in the centre square - I can't see Raines getting to the ball or limiting them in the clearance game. Stats prove he's a liability in there.

If you have a defensive mindset in the centre square bounces, you get smashed! As we have been in recent seasons

I'm not sure. Regardless of the numbers whomever he's tagging always appear to be affected and often their impact seems noticeably diluted over the match. In addition, I'd say he's become a bonafide goal threat from forward stoppages. Stats may suggest otherwise but currently I'd say Raines has definitely earned his spot and have no problem with him being used in the midfield cycle.

 

[Panthera]

Stats are what we base AFL on...8 goals in 2012.

Ave. 4 kicks to target
Ave. 2 clearances
Ave. 3 tackles

Worst has to be his club rank of 12th in pressure acts!! He's a tagger.

He's just not a good player.

 

[jjami15]

For those who are informing us of the lack of ability of Raines please then inform us all who is able to come in and play his role for the team as consistently as he did last year? With the emphasis placed on 'Role for the Team'.

 

[The Flying Belgian]

Stats are what we base AFL on...8 goals in 2012.

Do you really base your assessment of a player off stats. I'd say the best thing was to use your eye and common sense. While he may not necessairly limit the number of touches by opponents, he restricts their effectiveness.

But if you want to look who he tagged last season (some games he swapped opponents mid-match which makes it hard to gauge, Raines' disposal count in brackets):

R3: Stephen Hill 14 (9)
R4: Gary Ablett 33 (14) - Ablett injured in Q4
R5: Joel Selwood 18 (12)
R7: Pendlebury 33 / Swan 34 (15) - swapped between both and slowed their disposal rates when on them
R8: Scully 14 (18)
R9: Brent Harvey 27 (14)
R10: Kerr 18 (14)
R12: Sam Mitchell 25 (19) - Micthell racked up junk time possessions late Q4
R13: Griffen 22 (21)
R14: Moloney 16 (21)
R15: Jack 23 (20)
R16: Dal Santo 16 (17)
R17: Ablett 37 (17)
R18: Priddis 29 (10)
R19: Cotchin 21 (15)
R20: Murphy 26 (11)
R21: Dangerfield 30 (22)
R22: Boak 25 (20)
R23: Griffen 27 (16)

A cursory look at the stats says those players probably had a higher handball to kick ratio when tagged by Raines. Perhaps doing this is what the coaches are after.

I agree that his spot is vulnerable to someone who can come along and either decrease their opponents effectiveness or increase their offensive output. Or both. History and a quick look around at other teams, show this combination is pretty rare. At the moment, I'm not seeing anyone who is able to do both. Polkinghorne or Beams are the two who would come to mind, but neither have shown a great proficiency at the role.

A side needs to have a defensive midfielder IMO. You seem to arguing he shouldn't be in the centre square. That's a different argument to not being in the team fullstop.

 

[Panthera]

The tagger is a role of the past.

Sydney was the only team in the top 4 of 2012 to deploy a tagger (of sorts). Craig Bird was their shut down man; but his ave. 16 disposals @ 75% efficiency and swapping between midfield and forward line assignments differ from the role that Raines plays, especially at centre clearances.

I'd have Harwood in ahead of him if Voss insists in having a shut down player.

Re. Raines, I can't see why he gets a game if he can't kick properly, doesn't pressure his opponent, doesn't tackle and doesn't clear the ball when he's in the centre clearances .

If Raines gets a game ahead of the likes of Yeo, Lester, Harwood, Docherty etc. it's a bloody disgrace.

 

[Panthera]

Do you really base your assessment of a player off stats. I'd say the best thing was to use your eye and common sense. While he may not necessairly limit the number of touches by opponents, he restricts their effectiveness.

But if you want to look who he tagged last season (some games he swapped opponents mid-match which makes it hard to gauge, Raines' disposal count in brackets):

R3: Stephen Hill 14 (9)
R4: Gary Ablett 33 (14) - Ablett injured in Q4
R5: Joel Selwood 18 (12)
R7: Pendlebury 33 / Swan 34 (15) - swapped between both and slowed their disposal rates when on them
R8: Scully 14 (18)
R9: Brent Harvey 27 (14)
R10: Kerr 18 (14)
R12: Sam Mitchell 25 (19) - Micthell racked up junk time possessions late Q4
R13: Griffen 22 (21)
R14: Moloney 16 (21)
R15: Jack 23 (20)
R16: Dal Santo 16 (17)
R17: Ablett 37 (17)
R18: Priddis 29 (10)
R19: Cotchin 21 (15)
R20: Murphy 26 (11)
R21: Dangerfield 30 (22)
R22: Boak 25 (20)
R23: Griffen 27 (16)

A cursory look at the stats says those players probably had a higher handball to kick ratio when tagged by Raines. Perhaps doing this is what the coaches are after.

I agree that his spot is vulnerable to someone who can come along and either decrease their opponents effectiveness or increase their offensive output. Or both. History and a quick look around at other teams, show this combination is pretty rare. At the moment, I'm not seeing anyone who is able to do both. Polkinghorne or Beams are the two who would come to mind, but neither have shown a great proficiency at the role.

A side needs to have a defensive midfielder IMO. You seem to arguing he shouldn't be in the centre square. That's a different argument to not being in the team fullstop.

The "tags" against Selwood, Dal Santo & Cotchin are the only games that his opponent had well below their 2012 average disposal rate - all three games the Lions lost, two by big margins. The A-grade guns in Swan, Pendlebury, Dangerfield, Ablett & Murphy obviously had no problem with him.

He shouldn't be in the team because he can't impact in a positive way anywhere on the field against these guys he's up against, but even more so b/c the guns he plays on do most of their damage in the centre square, clearing the ball away against us.

Any reason why he should be in the team in your opinion?

 

[Sanchez365]

The "tags" against Selwood, Dal Santo & Cotchin are the only games that his opponent had well below their 2012 average disposal rate - all three games the Lions lost, two by big margins. The A-grade guns in Swan, Pendlebury, Dangerfield, Ablett & Murphy obviously had no problem with him.

He shouldn't be in the team because he can't impact in a positive way anywhere on the field against these guys he's up against, but even more so b/c the guns he plays on do most of their damage in the centre square, clearing the ball away against us.

Any reason why he should be in the team in your opinion?

Personally I think there are two reasons why Raines will be in the side round 1. Firstly, our list's age profile is still a problem, while we recruited Moloney in the off season we still need fully developed mids that have the fitness base to complete a full season and have the ability to help create a path for our smaller bodied guys. Secondly I think that Raines disposal and overall performance has genuinely improved since his time with us at the lions. Thus giving the coaches hope that he could continue to improve as the rest of the team develops around him.

I think he will be in the team until the three R's are physically built to shoulder the midfield work and protect their younger buddies. That's probably still a year or two away at least IMO.

 

[WhiteLionFeva]

Not sure I agree that taggers are a thing of the past. Most teams have at least one in their ranks, it's just that some are more skilful than others. I actually think Raines has improved his disposal efficiency over recent seasons. I do agree that as our team improves he will struggle to hold his place, but only when we have someone who can fulfil his role better than he does.

 

[Bert Man]

Not sure I agree that taggers are a thing of the past. Most teams have at least one in their ranks, it's just that some are more skilful than others. I actually think Raines has improved his disposal efficiency over recent seasons. I do agree that as our team improves he will struggle to hold his place, but only when we have someone who can fulfil his role better than he does.

I agree with you regarding Raines's disposal efficiency. I used to cringe when he got the ball.