2013 Team

[dlanod]

Heh.

Richmond play Jake King.
Carlton play Armfield/Ellard.
Essendon play all sorts of random players.
I don't know about North's current team, so no comment.
St Kilda play Clint Jones (and Steven Baker before him).
Fremantle play Crowley.

Raines would walk into the first three as an upgrade to the players they currently use as taggers, but probably not the last two because they've got better shutdown options.

 

[carnthemlions]

Heh.

Richmond play Jake King.
Carlton play Armfield/Ellard.
Essendon play all sorts of random players.
I don't know about North's current team, so no comment.
St Kilda play Clint Jones (and Steven Baker before him).
Fremantle play Crowley.

Raines would walk into the first three as an upgrade to the players they currently use as taggers, but probably not the last two because they've got better shutdown options.

I'd say it's more daniel jackson than jake king. I'm really not sure why the guy gets a game though...
Push ups ftw!

 

[POBT]

Leuenberger wouldn't get a game at West Coast.

 

[dlanod]

Leuenberger wouldn't get a game at West Coast.

Leuenberger can't even get a game in our preseason team!

 

[Panthera]

Heh.

Richmond play Jake King. Yes, they do. But as a defensive forward pocket.
Carlton play Armfield/Ellard. Armfield yes, but he's good at tagging. Only conceded more than 20 possessions twice in 2012.
Essendon play all sorts of random players. ???
I don't know about North's current team, so no comment. ???
St Kilda play Clint Jones (and Steven Baker before him). 1st in tackles, 2nd in pressure acts (in a team that has Lenny Hayes)
Fremantle play Crowley. Can't compare the two.

Raines would walk into the first three as an upgrade to the players they currently use as taggers, but probably not the last two because they've got better shutdown options.

So, still 0/6 from what you've given above.

 

[dlanod]

So, still 0/6 from what you've given above.

I like your system of putting your opinion as fact. 4 out of 6. There we go, all this nasty discussion business solved!

 

[karix]

No, they are his stats. I didn't make them up. And just because you don't agree with my point, doesn't mean that these stats aren't real.

I didn't say they weren't his stats, and I didn't say you made them up. Please read my post again. I said you cherry picked stats that prove your point. In other words, you chose stats that support your opinion, while excluding stats that clash with your opinion.

No, you are the one who is defending him, you give us the stats if you want to use them. The prosecution doesn't assist the defence in building their case. Don't be lazy.

They were rhetorical questions, those stats don't exist. My questions were being asked to illustrate my point: that the contribution that a tagger makes to his team effort isn't easily recorded as a statistic.

To be perfectly clear, I was inferring that your use of stats to prove he is a weak player is pointless as there aren't enough stats that accurately gauge the effectiveness of taggers.

I have watched Raines very closely, this is why I made an opinion about him and backed it up with stats. I didn't just make up a theory and ask others to validate them.

I don't know how closely you've watched Raines. What I do know is that you've formed an opinion and selected stats that agree with it. You can't call that a subjective analysis though, because you've looked at a set of numbers and chosen the ones that support your view while excluding anything that doesn't.

You certainly can say "I made an opinion about him and have cherry picked statics to make it seem as though my opinion is factual." Because your opinion is just that, an opinion, and nothing more.

Let me give you an example. Raines' goals increased by 800% from 2011 to 2012, based on this statistic it's a fact that he has been under utilised as a forward all these years and should play in the forward line this year to continue the meteoric development he has displayed at kicking goals in 2012.

That's obviously not true, but this extreme example exposes the weakness in your assertion that an opinion supported by cherry picked stats = fact.

Ask yourself this; do you honestly think he'd be getting a game at Richmond, Carlton, Essendon, North, St.Kilda, Fremantle??? Because these are the teams that we'll be potentially fighting with for 7th / 8th spot. My answer is a 0/6.

Yes to all of them except Essendon and probably North as well (unless the Bombers are reduced to their reserves, then it changes to yes as well).

 

[Mayestro]

Writing Raines' player review I was surprised at how many positive articles there were by independent journalists (ie not necessarily by Michael Whiting, who could be accused of bias). Below are a few examples, and quite a few more are no longer viewable because of Bigfooty's new website. So you would have to say that it's not a case of Brisbane supporters having rose coloured glasses- the professional pundits appear to like what they see as well.

This would also seem to support the view that stats really don't tell the whole story as Karix has mentioned- minimising a dangerous playmaker saves many goals in itself. A useful comparison would be to also analyse Joel Patfull's stats- should he be dropped because he doesn't get 20 possessions or kick enough goals? Obviously not, as he often sacrifices his attacking game in negating a dangerous forward. Very little difference IMO.

In addition Raines' game is still improving (he's had two concurrent career best years), so we may yet see a further improvement in the measurable statistics as well.

Against the Suns:

Raines did a fine job on Ablett despite the Brownlow medallist getting 33 touches.

Also

By Gary Ablett’s standards, it was an off night - and not just because of the knock he copped to his knee late in the game. He still collected 33 disposals, but Andrew Raines’ close checking kept his influence to a minimum. He also failed to kick a goal for the first time this year, while Raines collected one going the other way.

And

​

A new breed has stepped into their place, headed by some of the AFL's most exciting players.​

Sydney's Kieren Jack and Eagle Scott Selwood are the figureheads but Brisbane Lions midfielder Andrew Raines is not far behind.​

​

And​

Raines has flourished this year in a shut-down role for the Lions, taking on the opposition's top midfielder every weekend

​

.As well as​

​

Queensland team of the year

 

[wantok]

Raines wasn't on Danger for the whole game in round 21. JPatz was on him in the first quarter, and I think that Raines stuck with Thompson in the last. I remember a 50 going to Raines because Thompson wouldn't get up off of him when the umpire was talking to him.

Yes the start and end of Patfull's midfield career i would hope. Dangerfield just carved him up and he was left looking clueless at times. Raines went on him and starved him of ball for the next 2 quarters before Dangerfield got going again for a bit in the last. Raines is our specialist tagger and has a role to play. He does it well.

 

[patfullfankezz]

Yes the start and end of Patfull's midfield career i would hope. Dangerfield just carved him up and he was left looking clueless at times. Raines went on him and starved him of ball for the next 2 quarters before Dangerfield got going again for a bit in the last. Raines is our specialist tagger and has a role to play. He does it well.

But he kicked a point!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[dlanod]

Yes the start and end of Patfull's midfield career i would hope. Dangerfield just carved him up and he was left looking clueless at times. Raines went on him and starved him of ball for the next 2 quarters before Dangerfield got going again for a bit in the last. Raines is our specialist tagger and has a role to play. He does it well.

End potentially, but I remember Patfull doing a great tagging job on Goodes a few years ago. That was probably the start. Still wouldn't have made me think Dangerfield was the right match-up though.

 

[Luke Kathutian]

Is the fact that Lester has been left out of the Nab Cup grand final side a fairly good indicator that he will not be selected in Round 1? I also wonder if the that fact that Yeo and Docherty have played every Nab Cup game so far and have both been selected for the Grand Final an indicator that they could both be selected in the Round 1 team or they are competing for the 1 spot and the club is giving them both an equal chance to make their case for selection. I personally would not be against them both getting a game but at who's expense?

Think they are absolutely playing for the same spot (at least for round 1).

People have point out Lester is a composed player who played every game last year and that's true... but whats also true is last year we were generally shithouse and this season seem to have far more offensive capabilities available at the selection table. I think Lester is a great squad player and will provide really good cover or an alternative defensive option if the opposition plays a short foward-line. But he's not best 22 and I don't think he'll be selected round 1.

 

[pulpdriver]

Think they are absolutely playing for the same spot (at least for round 1).

People have point out Lester is a composed player who played every game last year and that's true... but whats also true is last year we were generally shithouse and this season seem to have far more offensive capabilities available at the selection table. I think Lester is a great squad player and will provide really good cover or an alternative defensive option if the opposition plays a short foward-line. But he's not best 22 and I don't think he'll be selected round 1.

I think they just want to develop his ball winning midfield abilities further. He's been thrown into the midfield constantly whilst being solid up forward and down back as a third option. I think they see him as a midfielder foremost and like they did with Karni they'd rather develop this at the reserves level full time than at AFL level where he could only expect portions of the match within the midfield.

 

[FlyingV]

Hey guys, good work tonight, hello revenue.
Whats the deal with Jared Polec? Is he injured?

 

[Grimreepah]

Only listened to the game on radio, but Yeo may have pushed himself ahead of Docherty.

 

[pulpdriver]

Only listened to the game on radio, but Yeo may have pushed himself ahead of Docherty.

IMO He's well and truly ahead currently. Doc will get there but it will be later in the season.

 

[Ironmonger]

Was very impressed with Yeo's second half.

But then, wasn't really impressed with his first half.

Reckon he's earned his spot, all in all.

 

[weevil]

Only listened to the game on radio, but Yeo may have pushed himself ahead of Docherty.

I'm a big fan of Doc but I think by the end of the year Yeo will be one of the most exciting young players in the competition.

 

[Toffee Lion]

Peoples thoughts on McGrath and Raines being pushed out this year?

 

[iBeng]

Peoples thoughts on McGrath and Raines being pushed out this year?

McGrath quite possibly, he might even explore Agency if he can, not sure on his contract.

Raines will be fighting for his spot pretty heavily. If Patty gets enough games in the guts this year I think he'll get over whatever "Homesickness" hes meant to have.

 

[Panthera]

Well well well, Raines out (subbed in late) and Vossy goes for a more attacking centre square combo. Result:

NAB CUP WIN over Carlton with a centre clearance differential of +12 and a F50 entry differential of +13.

I hope the attacking mentality continues in season proper as it was beautiful to watch live at the ground.

 

[karix]

Well well well, Raines out (subbed in late) and Vossy goes for a more attacking centre square combo. Result:

NAB CUP WIN over Carlton with a centre clearance differential of +12 and a F50 entry differential of +13.

I hope the attacking mentality continues in season proper as it was beautiful to watch live at the ground.

Before Raines was subbed in Redden was playing a hard tag and had very low possession and impact on the game.

Raines subbed in and Redden is released to play his natural game and has an immediate impact.

Did you watch the game or just read the stats? (Facetious question)

But seriously, which of our midfielders do you think we should 'sacrifice' to play the tagging/negating role if not Raines?

 

[Beamer4lyf]

B: Adcock Merrett Lester
HB: Golby Patfull Docherty
C: Hanley Moloney Redden
HF: Zorko Brown McGrath
F: Green Martin Cornelius
R: Longer Rockliff Rich

I: Karnezis, Beams, Raines
Sub: Bewick

Exclusions:

Black - probably won't be fit
Leuenberger - let him build some form up first
Harwood ad Yeo - unlucky
Maguire - team balance
Polkinghorne - overtaken
Crisp and Polec - good depth

It's not a particularly tall team, so it would probably require a bit of tweaking if we played West Coast for example. There's not a lot in it - the few posts above all make good sense.

yeo will get the nod over doc

 

[Karnezis_13]

Peoples thoughts on McGrath and Raines being pushed out this year?

I've always been an advocate of Raines keeping his spot in the team despite his "statistically low" output. However if one of our young star mids is being kept out then I would prefer him only play when required (i.e. when we desperately need a tagger).
It would be a great stage to hit TBH.

 

[Beamer4lyf]

I've always been an advocate of Raines keeping his spot in the team despite his "statistically low" output. However if one of our young star mids is being kept out then I would prefer him only play when required (i.e. when we desperately need a tagger).
It would be a great stage to hit TBH.

against a team like adelaide and gold coast i see his value although there are many teams where I'd much rather see up and coming players in instead of him