2014 Non-Crows AFL Discussion

[Dandy_GO]

Sick of hearing this myth trotted out all the time. Barring Sam Reid I don't think there was a single other tall forward from his draft who played more games than Gunston had by the end of 2011. He was given games very early and wasn't mistreated in the slightest.

Even though I disagree with it, I can see the argument for Davis having been "mistreated". Gunston? Not even slightly.

Bingo. Davis and Gunston were targeted largely because they had received early AFL experience and flourished, not because they weren't getting games. It would have been very clear to them that they were both major players in our long term plans.
I'm sure there were other failures on the part of our club that had an impact on their decisions to leave, but not getting games is blatantly not one of them. Heck, Davis almost certainly would not have received such a huge offer from GWS if he'd been stuck in the seconds for his first few years on the list like so many KPP are.

 

[Iron]

"Homophobic" is a bit of an over-used term, but it was clearly a remark with is implicitly derogatory towards homosexuals. As far as I'm aware, Heretier didn't "demand punishment", he asked the club to do something about it. That "something" could take many forms - most usefully would be some kind of education to help his teammates understand how harmful this kind of casually derogatory attitude towards homosexuality can be to homosexuals.

I can't really speak about whether Heretier thinks his shit stinks or not (and neither can anyone else on here), but in this case he was well within his rights to act as he has and I think it's disgraceful how the footy community at large has reacted to it.

I think if it came to him almost quitting the club over the issue, then he's making far too big a deal out of it.

As for the "implicitly derogatory", really? I don't understand how that can be applied even in the least. How seriously does the Mardi Gras take itself with its flamboyancy and ridiculous over-the-top celebrations? If the gay community can get together and have fun and laugh, why can't the "straight" community? It's meant to be a joke and it's meant to be fun.

The difference between homophobia and a harmless joke is the target of the joke. If the joke had been at the expense of the gay community, that's not okay. The joke, as unfunny as it might have been, was about a celebration that doesn't take itself seriously in the slightest. Fair game. Move on, Heritier.

 

[little graham]

Can anyone shed any light on when the hawthorn prelim might be? I'm looking to head over for it, but might struggle if it's the fri night.

As top ranked team they'll get the friday night, unless they request the saturday.

 

[crowsup]

"Homophobic" is a bit of an over-used term, but it was clearly a remark with is implicitly derogatory towards homosexuals. As far as I'm aware, Heretier didn't "demand punishment", he asked the club to do something about it. That "something" could take many forms - most usefully would be some kind of education to help his teammates understand how harmful this kind of casually derogatory attitude towards homosexuality can be to homosexuals.

I can't really speak about whether Heretier thinks his shit stinks or not (and neither can anyone else on here), but in this case he was well within his rights to act as he has and I think it's disgraceful how the footy community at large has reacted to it.

I don't know.. Stab. Is he now going to ask the government to ban the Sydney Mardi Gras?
I personally think there is more to it than what is being reported. Maybe some of the players no longer speak to him as they used to before the came out.
I don't really know but I don't believe that the words on that poster (as reported) really constitute an homophobic remark.

 

[whattagun07]

As top ranked team they'll get the friday night, unless they request the saturday.

If Sydney win, they'll be the top ranked team..

 

[cmndstab]

I think if it came to him almost quitting the club over the issue, then he's making far too big a deal out of it.

As for the "implicitly derogatory", really? I don't understand how that can be applied even in the least. How seriously does the Mardi Gras take itself with its flamboyancy and ridiculous over-the-top celebrations? If the gay community can get together and have fun and laugh, why can't the "straight" community? It's meant to be a joke and it's meant to be fun.

The difference between homophobia and a harmless joke is the target of the joke. If the joke had been at the expense of the gay community, that's not okay. The joke, as unfunny as it might have been, was about a celebration that doesn't take itself seriously in the slightest. Fair game. Move on, Heritier.

I'd be pretty confident (though obviously I don't actually know) that this issue is more of a "straw that broke the back" thing rather than the sole reason Heretier is looking to leave. There seem to have been problems there for a while.

It's not really good enough to say "homosexual people can laugh at themselves so we can too" - any more than that argument works in issues of race, gender, or any other contentious social issue. Yes, I'm sure it's meant to be a joke, and I don't believe the person or people who made the joke intended with any offence to be caused - but this is precisely why education is needed. It might have been intended as a joke but these kinds of jokes often have a very real and very serious impact on members of the communities which are the targets of those jokes.

And your third paragraph just isn't realistic. If someone had photos of a player dressed up as a monkey and I made a joke about them attending an event for black people, I couldn't just turn around and say "well, the players were the target of the joke so it's racist." The joke is very clearly that being associated with the homosexual culture prevalent at the mardi gras is a negative thing. Or to put it more simply - the joke was at the expense of the gay community.


Now, for all I know, Heretier might be a troublemaker behind the scenes. I've got no idea. He certainly seems to have been involved in enough awkward incidents. But in this case I don't think he should be painted as having some kind of "God complex" for having a problem with what was written and asking for action to be taken. Certainly I don't think it's at all reasonable for people to hear the ten second sound grab on the midday news and then conclude that Heretier is some kind of self-serving dick who doesn't give a shit about the team.

 

[cmndstab]

I don't know.. Stab. Is he now going to ask the government to ban the Sydney Mardi Gras?
I personally think there is more to it than what is being reported. Maybe some of the players no longer speak to him as they used to before the came out.
I don't really know but I don't believe that the words on that poster (as reported) really constitute an homophobic remark.

I don't really understand your question about him asking the government to ban it.

I think the debates about "homophobia" are difficult because there seems to be a desire by the media and other social groups to use a catch-all term ("homophobia") to describe any kind of bigotry, discrimination, ignorance or anything else associated with a negative stigma towards homosexuality. I definitely don't think that the people who made the joke were intending to be offensive towards homosexuals, but the fact remains that the joke could well be offensive to homosexuals. If anything this arises from ignorance of the issues faced by members of that community, not "homophobia" which I take to be a fear (or even irrational hatred) of homosexuals.

I don't like to think of it as a "homophobic remark" but it was a remark that should at the very least be addressed.

 

[Dandy_GO]

Lumumba has a history of getting flak from supporters largely because he stands up for what he believes in. Mostly, this has meant he hasn't been afraid to publicly comment on issues relating to inequality. I know he also does a lot of charity work behind the scenes related to these causes.
If you don't believe that footy clubs have a pretty poor record with homophobia, you've got your head in the sand. Why, in a league where there statistically must be dozens, are there still zero openly gay players?
In my opinion, it's great that he's willing to speak up about homophobic comments, or graffiti, in his workplace - especially knowing the kind of shit he'd cop for it. There is zero chance the triggering graffiti is an isolated incident. It's perfectly reasonable to say to the coaching/administrative staff that this sort of stuff isn't acceptable.
It might be a mountain out of a molehill for those amongst us who aren't gay, and haven't had to put up with our sexuality being the butt of constant belittling jokes, but I am sure footy clubs can be pretty difficult places for those who are.
We should all aim a little higher that 'LOL GAY' jokes - especially in the workplace where anyone could be reading it. Changing bigoted culture is, however, never a smooth process, unfortunately.

 

[Iron]

I'd be pretty confident (though obviously I don't actually know) that this issue is more of a "straw that broke the back" thing rather than the sole reason Heretier is looking to leave. There seem to have been problems there for a while.

It's not really good enough to say "homosexual people can laugh at themselves so we can too" - any more than that argument works in issues of race, gender, or any other contentious social issue. Yes, I'm sure it's meant to be a joke, and I don't believe the person or people who made the joke intended with any offence to be caused - but this is precisely why education is needed. It might have been intended as a joke but these kinds of jokes often have a very real and very serious impact on members of the communities which are the targets of those jokes.

I consider myself quite open-minded and do make a concerted effort to tread lightly in these sorts of areas. It's easy to offend someone accidentally. But the 'would a reasonable person be offended by this' test before you speak is quite useful. If, as a man, I dress up in high heels and a skirt and dance, that's a bit of fun, right? If someone else then says "you look ridiculous", would it be reasonable for me to be offended? What if they're also gay? Is it okay then? If you're prepared to make fun of yourself, then you need to be prepared for others to make fun of you as well. And, provided there's no malice involved, no one should be able to complain otherwise.

I realise that's far too simplistic but that's the best I can do.

And your third paragraph just isn't realistic. If someone had photos of a player dressed up as a monkey and I made a joke about them attending an event for black people, I couldn't just turn around and say "well, the players were the target of the joke so it's racist." The joke is very clearly that being associated with the homosexual culture prevalent at the mardi gras is a negative thing. Or to put it more simply - the joke was at the expense of the gay community.

As in everything there's no black and white, no rule book we can follow. However in your example you're linking an "event for black people" with a man in a monkey suit. Unless there's an "event for black people" where they dress ups as monkeys, I'm not sure that's the same. Seeing a picture of two flamboyant men and making a connection to the Mardi Gras, where everyone dresses up as flamboyant men, cannot be homophobic. I would say it's a stretch to imply it's even a negative association. The event is fun; if a homosexual is offended at someone else having fun with it as well, that makes no sense and is far too precious.

I'd be pretty confident (though obviously I don't actually know)Now, for all I know, Heretier might be a troublemaker behind the scenes. I've got no idea. He certainly seems to have been involved in enough awkward incidents. But in this case I don't think he should be painted as having some kind of "God complex" for having a problem with what was written and asking for action to be taken.

He wanted to meet the President of the United Stats so he could "feed off his energy" and "share his pursuits". You're right, maybe I shouldn't judge. But he's not exactly subtle about what he does.

 

[DD#23]

Lumumba has a history of getting flak from supporters largely because he stands up for what he believes in. Mostly, this has meant he hasn't been afraid to publicly comment on issues relating to inequality. I know he also does a lot of charity work behind the scenes related to these causes.
If you don't believe that footy clubs have a pretty poor record with homophobia, you've got your head in the sand. Why, in a league where there statistically must be dozens, are there still zero openly gay players?
In my opinion, it's great that he's willing to speak up about homophobic comments, or graffiti, in his workplace - especially knowing the kind of shit he'd cop for it. There is zero chance the triggering graffiti is an isolated incident. It's perfectly reasonable to say to the coaching/administrative staff that this sort of stuff isn't acceptable.
It might be a mountain out of a molehill for those amongst us who aren't gay, and haven't had to put up with our sexuality being the butt of constant belittling jokes, but I am sure footy clubs can be pretty difficult places for those who are.
We should all aim a little higher that 'LOL GAY' jokes - especially in the workplace where anyone could be reading it. Changing bigoted culture is, however, never a smooth process, unfortunately.

while its of little entertainment value, one of the things I've learnt from "The Grill" series on the AFL website is that Lumumba is a pretty sharp bloke, and not for a footballer but in general.

 

[BACCS]

Watching tonight makes me realise how far away we are from a flag. Really like both teams but Geelong more so. Still think they will be around the mark for a few more years

Geelong are a long way off their next flag, I'm not sure how you were impressed with anything Geelong dished up last night, they were putrid. Hawks kept them in it early with a few poor turnovers. They struggled against any of the contenders this year, and scraped through for 6 wins under 2 goals. The drop off was always going to come, especially considering how many players they've turned over. Their lack of a key forward besides Hawkins will kill them until they address it properly (Kersten aint a KPF, 3rd tall at best).

I wouldn't be surprised if they go out in straight sets, Essendon or North won't be easy beats.

 

[BACCS]

God I hate Geelong now, they are not the team they once were ... full of acting for frees and complaining about the decisions and sniping. Can't stand them - was great to see a side brimming with skilled footballers hand them a finals spanking.

And show the gulf between Geelong and the top 3 (Freo, Sydney, Hawks). Heck, they are lucky Port are on the other side of the draw.

 

[BACCS]

Lumumba might be standing up for what he believes in, but the way he has gone about addressing it has been way over the top, especially in a team environment. Publicly ridiculing Eddie on TV last year, going off at Buckley during a training session, going off at teammates on the field (he did this numerous times during the year, including our game to Beams); they are not traits of a team player. I have no problem in him standing up for what he believes in, but he just does it poorly.

 

[GROTTO]

After a few days have passed I thought about Harry O Intentions and maybe just maybe there is gay footballer(s) at the Pies which may have been uncomfortable with the picture that he knows about. No gay footballer is going to stand up and take exception to it nor come to his defence either.

With about 800 players around afl clubs and given the % in society overall, I'm sure there are some.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Bingo. Davis and Gunston were targeted largely because they had received early AFL experience and flourished, not because they weren't getting games. It would have been very clear to them that they were both major players in our long term plans.
I'm sure there were other failures on the part of our club that had an impact on their decisions to leave, but not getting games is blatantly not one of them. Heck, Davis almost certainly would not have received such a huge offer from GWS if he'd been stuck in the seconds for his first few years on the list like so many KPP are.

They were targeted because they were good and because they could be got to.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

I think if it came to him almost quitting the club over the issue, then he's making far too big a deal out of it.

Harry reminds me of the Rob Sitch character in this Late Show sketch, described here as more of a feminist than any of the women at the table.

"During the week we had a win. We changed walkman to walkperson."

 

[Sanders]

Sorry I agree with Bicks here. Guston was always going, like Anthony Rocca before him they spent their time as required and left.

People need to stop trying to make shit up to rationalise their position on it.

"Gunston was always going home..." Isn't a made up rationalisation?

 

[Elite Crow]

Geelong are a long way off their next flag, I'm not sure how you were impressed with anything Geelong dished up last night, they were putrid. Hawks kept them in it early with a few poor turnovers. They struggled against any of the contenders this year, and scraped through for 6 wins under 2 goals. The drop off was always going to come, especially considering how many players they've turned over. Their lack of a key forward besides Hawkins will kill them until they address it properly (Kersten aint a KPF, 3rd tall at best).

I wouldn't be surprised if they go out in straight sets, Essendon or North won't be easy beats.

Geelong were putrid? Seriously why do you post such shit?

 

[Sanders]

Geelong were putrid? Seriously why do you post such shit?

Relax its just BACCS being BACCS

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

What's hurt Geelong the most in their attempt to extend their period of dominance is that their three most talented youngsters Menzel, Vardy and Christensen can't get on the park.

 

[Bicks]

Spot on PAF. I would thrown in John Griffin as well. He would have been a handy backup ruckman. I remember back in 2009, before the mass exodus, more than one commentator said that Adelaide had one of the best young lists in the comp. Fast forward 5 years later and thanks to a deplorable administration and shitty culture, most of that young talent has walked out the door.

You do realise Jon Griffin requested a trade on compassionate grounds back to Perth to support his seriously ill father at the time??

The club absolutely did the right thing for Griffin's situation and to suggest anything to the contrary is poor form.

 

[Glenno23]

Ross Lyon goes without a flag for another year

I still maintain he'll never win one unless he adapts to a slightly more attacking brand of his defensive plan

 

[Sanders]

Ross Lyon goes without a flag for another year

I still maintain he'll never win one unless he adapts to a slightly more attacking brand of his defensive plan

Plenty of people "maintained" that after 89,92,94 Blight would never win a flag with his game plan

 

[hey shorty]

They need to find another key forward quickly or he will leave Freo as he left St Kilda.

 

[Glenno23]

Plenty of people "maintained" that after 89,92,94 Blight would never win a flag with his game plan

And i'm sure Blight made some tweaks on what he did in his losing GF's..... just like i said Ross needs to do