2015 Non-Crows AFL Discussion - Pt. 1

[NikkiNoo]

In your opinion, do you think there is a length of sentence which would not be appealed by anyone? Clearly ASADA/WADA won't be happy with 6 months, but would they appeal a 1 year ban? Is it Essendon or the players who appeal if they think it's too long, and would they appeal 1 year?

I think all of the above. Depending on what happens, they could all have cause to appeal!

Essendon players are apparently being prepared that they will miss a few games this season (quite a change from Essendon's long stance on the issue that everything will be okay, nothing to see here, move along). I think the term that was used was 'a chunk of the season'. SANFL clubs believe they aren't going to get their players back this year at all. I can't see, if the players are found guilty, how it can be less than a year. So they might think they are hard done by and want it shorter and could appeal after Essendon told them they would have got a shorter penalty.

I get the feeling that ASADA really are after other people, the bigger fish. So I think they will be weighing up what happens around coaching staff if players get bans. They might still be going after then too, so a 1 year ban with a guilty penalty might help them go after the bigger fish. They have Dank in this current tribunal hearing, but the coaching etc staff might also be in a bit of future pain.

It's really a big guessing game as we only know such a small part of the whole information.

 

[NikkiNoo]

What would actually be "fair" for the other afl teams were if Essendon were given 17 weeks

That way every team plays them once in their weakened state, and the teams that double up, just play against a normal (but not match fit) afl team

But that wouldn't work either as i'm sure that certain teams will play them twice before someone plays them for the first time

Just give em the full 12 months!

The AFL Drug Tribunal doesn't consider who is playing whom and when. There are set penalties that they then decide upon. So it's 1 or 2 years and then reductions for assistance etc bring in the 6 months that can then be taken off for each reduction. If you look at the ASADA register of findings, they are either 18 month, 1 year or 2 year penalties listed (and one case of a life ban)!

We know they are up for a 2 year penalty. Now will there be reductions placed on that consideration? Who knows.

 

[Mike Smyth]

Is that what you hope so Ryder and Monfries get to play for your favourite team?

You beauty. I didn't know we recruited these 2. When did that happen?

 

[MRB37]

Cross off Phil Davis returning. Re-signed for 2 more years at GWS.

 

[Godallblighty]

The AFL Drug Tribunal doesn't consider who is playing whom and when. There are set penalties that they then decide upon. So it's 1 or 2 years and then reductions for assistance etc bring in the 6 months that can then be taken off for each reduction. If you look at the ASADA register of findings, they are either 18 month, 1 year or 2 year penalties listed (and one case of a life ban)!

We know they are up for a 2 year penalty. Now will there be reductions placed on that consideration? Who knows.

The big issue for the moment seems to me to be not so much the penalties but whether they are found guilty or not.

 

[NikkiNoo]

The big issue for the moment seems to me to be not so much the penalties but whether they are found guilty or not.

Considering the low burden of proof required, (well under what most people understand from watching law shows on telly) anything that tends to get to this stage it's pretty strong guess that there will be a guilty verdict.

 

[Elite Crow]

PHIL Davis re-signed for 2 years

 

[1990crow]

Cross off Phil Davis returning. Re-signed for 2 more years at GWS.

Meh Hartigan, Lever and Talia with Otten, Ramsey, Siggins is good enough for me. Aish is the priority.

 

[mattymac]

It was pretty clear when we took Lever that Davis wasn't in our plans. It was last year or never.

 

[FantasticShirt]

Would've been handy to get Davis back. However, he would've probably cost a fairly high price at a time when we're looking at throwing big $$ at our out of contract stars and also hoping to land someone like Aish.

Hopefully Lever develops well.

 

[CrowsB4hoes]

I think the 6 month backdated suspension is something the Victorian football media community have been trying to convince everyone will happen. Say it enough times and it makes itself true. People only think a 6 month suspension is fair is because that's what they've been conditioned to think from commentators across the industry.

I can't see how it can be any less than 12 months.

 

[NikkiNoo]

I think the 6 month backdated suspension is something the Victorian football media community have been trying to convince everyone will happen. Say it enough times and it makes itself true. People only think a 6 month suspension is fair is because that's what they've been conditioned to think from commentators across the industry.

I can't see how it can be any less than 12 months.

Look at it this way.

Essendon said it was a nothing story. They didn't do anything wrong. It would all be over soon. It's now two years later.

Then they pushed the AOD side, knowing that ASADA weren't following through on that. Media lapped that up.

They took nothing 'illegal'. That got pushed by the media with no query about it not actually being relevant to the case. It is banned drugs, not illegal ones. (They could be in the poop elsewhere regarding illegal drugs, but not ASADA)

Now they are pushing the 6 months, which came from pro-Essendon media supporters. The players appear to finally have been told to expect a punishment for part of the season. That particular 'journalist' was asked how they came to the six months and were provided with links to the Drug code and the penalty clauses to correct their error. They were still crying 'the vibe' last I saw.

Basically I agree that Essendon are still lying to their players and supporters. They know it's likely to be longer than the 6 weeks/months that is being bandied about.

 

[fabs33]

Haha, 'the vibe', how can you possibly defend against that?!

 

[NikkiNoo]

Haha, 'the vibe', how can you possibly defend against that?!

Have a look on the Hot Topic Board and you will see masochists who regularly try Sometimes they succeed a teeny little bit, then it's back to arguing semantics and that they want absolute proof before they disbelieve that their club/players did nothing wrong.

 

[Jars458]

Look at it this way.

Essendon said it was a nothing story. They didn't do anything wrong. It would all be over soon. It's now two years later.

Then they pushed the AOD side, knowing that ASADA weren't following through on that. Media lapped that up.

They took nothing 'illegal'. That got pushed by the media with no query about it not actually being relevant to the case. It is banned drugs, not illegal ones. (They could be in the poop elsewhere regarding illegal drugs, but not ASADA)

Now they are pushing the 6 months, which came from pro-Essendon media supporters. The players appear to finally have been told to expect a punishment for part of the season. That particular 'journalist' was asked how they came to the six months and were provided with links to the Drug code and the penalty clauses to correct their error. They were still crying 'the vibe' last I saw.

Basically I agree that Essendon are still lying to their players and supporters. They know it's likely to be longer than the 6 weeks/months that is being bandied about.

Isn't a guilty verdict still in doubt though given the bungling of ASADA in this case re statements and not getting Dank to testify at all. Its a circumstantial case, even if its a strong one.

Clearly they have done plenty wrong but whether its enough to convict them remains to be seen.

Also doesn't the six months come from what Cronulla got? I know its a different case but given the damage it will do to the comp one can expect a lenient sentence.

 

[StonesThrow]

Meh Hartigan, Lever and Talia with Otten, Ramsey, Siggins is good enough for me. Aish is the priority.

Harigan has a lot of questions marks whether he will even be a serviceable KPD. Lever is a couple of years away from making an impact. Otten is not really a KPD even when fit. Siggins has a long way to go before even being given a chance at AFL level. Ramsey looks to be developed as a utility or a forward and has only played 1 nab cup game.

Our stocks are very poor at the moment and if Hartigan doesn't step up this year then we need to look for a trade/FA to get some quality in asap.

 

[NikkiNoo]

Isn't a guilty verdict still in doubt though given the bungling of ASADA in this case re statements and not getting Dank to testify at all. Its a circumstantial case, even if its a strong one.

Clearly they have done plenty wrong but whether its enough to convict them remains to be seen.

Also doesn't the six months come from what Cronulla got? I know its a different case but given the damage it will do to the comp one can expect a lenient sentence.

Do you know that DNA evidence is circumstantial? It was always going to be a circumstantial case. They don't need him to sign a stat dec about his testimony (and Charter too) but it would have strengthened it. They still have the transcripts from their interviews. Those were admitted and the burden of proof is incredibly low compared to what you think the level has to be.

ASADA didn't 'bungle' it. That's the Essendon supporters in the media trotting out that line, which you parroted nicely hook, line and sinker.

35 Infraction notices is pretty damning. It's been through ASADA's own internal review. Then they had the former head of the Administrative Appeals Tribunal, the guy who prosecuted Lance Armstrong and the the person who wrote the initial WADA code to all look over ASADA's case. That came back with a tick of approval that there was enough information to prosecute. So ASADA then issued the SCNs which have now lead to the INs. It's gone through a number of processes that if at any stage it looks weak, it would have been pointed out and not gone to further stages.

Cronulla players plead guilty BEFORE they got to a Tribunal. That's the huge difference. They admitted at the SCN stage that they were guilty and took a deal. Essendon players refused to respond to the SCN stage. Can't compare with the Cronulla penalty (which incidentally was a full year, even with the guilty plea - they just got a LOT of backdating due to the delays caused by the Federal Govt deciding that ASADA didn't need a CEO for a bit, and that other members of ASADA weren't going to get their contracts renewed and Essendon taking up the majority of the investigation time). Also the NRL Tribunal is different from the AFL Tribunal. It's Oranges and Mandarins. Both might look the same colour, but they are a bit different in reality.

 

[Mattrox]

Isn't a guilty verdict still in doubt though given the bungling of ASADA in this case re statements and not getting Dank to testify at all. Its a circumstantial case, even if its a strong one.

Clearly they have done plenty wrong but whether its enough to convict them remains to be seen.

Also doesn't the six months come from what Cronulla got? I know its a different case but given the damage it will do to the comp one can expect a lenient sentence.

The guilty verdict being in doubt is a media fabrication based on wishful thinking. ASADA will appeal any verdict other than guilty.

Circumstantial evidence has put away murderers. It's about the weight of evidence and quality. ASADA seem to a tomes of evidence.

 

[NikkiNoo]

The guilty verdict being in doubt is a media fabrication based on wishful thinking. ASADA will appeal any verdict other than guilty.

Circumstantial evidence has put away murderers. It's about the weight of evidence and quality. ASADA seem to a tomes of evidence.

250 pages worth of evidence was delivered as part of the SCNs, tailored for each individual. I think that's a pretty decent amount of evidence.

 

[footy4ever]

250 pages worth of evidence was delivered as part of the SCNs, tailored for each individual. I think that's a pretty decent amount of evidence.

Go ASADA you good thing!

 

[Jars458]

Do you know that DNA evidence is circumstantial? It was always going to be a circumstantial case. They don't need him to sign a stat dec about his testimony (and Charter too) but it would have strengthened it. They still have the transcripts from their interviews. Those were admitted and the burden of proof is incredibly low compared to what you think the level has to be.

ASADA didn't 'bungle' it. That's the Essendon supporters in the media trotting out that line, which you parroted nicely hook, line and sinker.

35 Infraction notices is pretty damning. It's been through ASADA's own internal review. Then they had the former head of the Administrative Appeals Tribunal, the guy who prosecuted Lance Armstrong and the the person who wrote the initial WADA code to all look over ASADA's case. That came back with a tick of approval that there was enough information to prosecute. So ASADA then issued the SCNs which have now lead to the INs. It's gone through a number of processes that if at any stage it looks weak, it would have been pointed out and not gone to further stages.

Cronulla players plead guilty BEFORE they got to a Tribunal. That's the huge difference. They admitted at the SCN stage that they were guilty and took a deal. Essendon players refused to respond to the SCN stage. Can't compare with the Cronulla penalty (which incidentally was a full year, even with the guilty plea - they just got a LOT of backdating due to the delays caused by the Federal Govt deciding that ASADA didn't need a CEO for a bit, and that other members of ASADA weren't going to get their contracts renewed and Essendon taking up the majority of the investigation time). Also the NRL Tribunal is different from the AFL Tribunal. It's Oranges and Mandarins. Both might look the same colour, but they are a bit different in reality.

No need to patronise me. I am aware of what circumstantial is and I did say it was a strong circumstnatial case. There is a big difference between having the evidence to prosecute and then having enough evidence to secure a conviction. As well as having a law degree and having done jury duty I have some experience is this area. The burden of proof of "comfortable satisfaction" is somewhere between balance of probabilites and beyond reasonable doubt. Academic experts have different views on what this relatively new level of burden of proof means. I went to an interesting seminor which was partly on this topic.

ASADA did bungle it by not benig able to force the chemist and the whistle blower to testify. The time taken in this has arguably denied the players natural justice.

I swallowed nothing hook line and sinker at all, I am just saying nothing is sure and certain in this one. I agree Cronulla is very different but neverthless people are using this as a basis for the six months. Thanks for the lecture

 

[Jars458]

250 pages worth of evidence was delivered as part of the SCNs, tailored for each individual. I think that's a pretty decent amount of evidence.

Have you read it all. If so, please summarise in less than one page.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

No way the Essendon players get more than 6 weeks.

You keep repeating this with no reason!

 

[I Lost My Keays]

Quick question lads. Wheres the best place to sell AFC gear? I'm looking to get rid of a few items one such as a flag with a whole lot of signatures including dean baileys.

 

[RodnyDangrfield]

Harigan has a lot of questions marks whether he will even be a serviceable KPD. Lever is a couple of years away from making an impact. Otten is not really a KPD even when fit. Siggins has a long way to go before even being given a chance at AFL level. Ramsey looks to be developed as a utility or a forward and has only played 1 nab cup game.

Our stocks are very poor at the moment and if Hartigan doesn't step up this year then we need to look for a trade/FA to get some quality in asap.

Dont be suprised to see Tom Lynch heading back there if KH doesn't cut the mustard, has been training with the backs in a few drills this pre season.