2015 Non-Crows AFL Discussion - Pt. 1

[Moonwatcher]

The issue I have is that by saying he wouldn't be gifted games without working for it, is endorsing Neil's approach as correct. It was not correct, and it nearly cost us the player. It was the opposite of correct. Neil was wrong

Take Lever we gifted him games this year, you only need to look at the B&F to see how the coaches rated his actual performance (not highly); but they invested (gifted) games to a talent bloke, because that is what you do with guys you believe in. It was the right thing to do

Neil just wanted to knock Tex down a peg or two, when he should have been developing him.

Speaking to the Hawthorn scout that flagged Gunston as a target for Hawthorn suggests to me that NC not gifting games to the best talent is why we lost him. There was so much right about NC but it wasn't enough to counter his failings/beliefs unfortunately.

 

[Mike Smyth]

Some people should stay away from alcohol as they turn into dangerous animals.

Unless they are dangerous animals without the alcohol. To close the loop he just needs to come out now and say he is suffering from depression.

 

[Sanders]

Speaking to the Hawthorn scout that flagged Gunston as a target for Hawthorn suggests to me that NC not gifting games to the best talent is why we lost him. There was so much right about NC but it wasn't enough to counter his failings/beliefs unfortunately.

Thing is it's not gifting, its investing and prioritising. Neil had no feeling, no sense of the young players.

He was a great teacher like triggy was a great businessman :}

 

[Mike Smyth]

Thing is it's not gifting, its investing and prioritising. Neil had no feeling, no sense of the young players.

He was a great teacher like triggy was a great businessman :}

And like I'm a great poster?

They both initially had some great ideas but they both fell apart under extreme pressure. In IT we call this "out of your depth".

 

[SugarShane]

Interesting when I hear that NFL games go on for too long (generally 3 hours which isn't much more than an AFL game) and yet the same person will go to a Test match over 5 days. Never quite get that?

As a (casual) NFL fan I often get into that argument at work. Here are guys who go to every day of a test match, will watch a full day of golf or tennis on TV, and they turn around and say they can't watch NFL because it's too boring. Give me a spell.
"It's too stop start. They only play a quarter of the time."
Um, as opposed to cricket?

 

[Jack is Back]

Thing is it's not gifting, its investing and prioritising. Neil had no feeling, no sense of the young players.

He was a great teacher like triggy was a great businessman :}

This is sooo yesterday but just to put the facts on the table.

1) Tex debuted in round 1 2009 as an 18 year old.

2) In his first three seasons he played 45 AFL games. He was one of the youngest key forwards in the history of the AFL to reach 50 games.

3) He was sent back to the twos on a number of occasions which of course has never happened to any other promising key forwards.

Based on the "fact" that Tex was treated so harshly in his early years, surely we can pick up Tom Boyd who only played 14 games in his second season despite earning $1million a year and will be well short of the Tex benchmark when he turns 21. We should also find it easy to lure Joe Daniher who only played 26 games in his first two seasons and will turn 22 before he hits the magical 50 games (Tex hit 50 games a couple of weeks after his 21st birthday).

One reason many uneducated fans believe that Tex was "held back" by Craigy is that an anomaly in the NSW Rookie system would have allowed Tex to play as a 17 year old despite the fact that all other players in his draft year had to turn 18 in the year before they played their first match. He was brought to Adelaide as a 17 year old by the AFC (and Craigy) to accelerate his development and it was decided that it would be best to give him a full year at Norwood. Whilst he showed a lot of early promise with the Legs he only hit the headlines during the SANFL finals in 2008.

So if your definition of poor treatment was for Craigy to wait until 4 months after his actual draft year to give him a game (in round 1 no less) and to give him more AFL games before he turned 21 than 99% of key forwards (including many top 5 draft picks) then yeah he was given a very tough start to his career.

 

[baldandbroke]

The woman, who lives in Sydney and is a producer at Channel 7, was at Mr Miyagi Japanese restaurant in Windsor on Saturday night.

She told Channel 7 news on Monday night that Martin was sitting at the bar with a friend and was drunk, loud and offensive. When she asked him to calm down, he became more agitated and threatening.

"He reacted extremely angrily, very very agitated, began swearing at me, standing over me physically, it was extremely intimidating," the woman, referred to as "Tracey", said.

She said Martin "physically stood over me, held a chopstick above my head and threatened to stab me in the face with a chopstick".

She said she told Martin she intended to inform Richmond of his behaviour.

"He said, 'Are you going to dob on me?' and I said, 'Well, I will be calling the club on Monday," she said.

"To which he reacted by slamming his hand next to my head into the wall, which at that point was obviously extremely terrifying."

Does anyone else read into the "going in and out of the toilets" quote from the original article combined with the "are you going to dob me in" ?

 

[Mike Smyth]

Gastro?

 

[Alex99]

Does anyone else read into the "going in and out of the toilets" quote from the original article combined with the "are you going to dob me in" ?

Are you suggesting the ice wasn't in the fridge?

 

[SydCrow]

This is sooo yesterday but just to put the facts on the table.

1) Tex debuted in round 1 2009 as an 18 year old.

2) In his first three seasons he played 45 AFL games. He was one of the youngest key forwards in the history of the AFL to reach 50 games.

3) He was sent back to the twos on a number of occasions which of course has never happened to any other promising key forwards.

Based on the "fact" that Tex was treated so harshly in his early years, surely we can pick up Tom Boyd who only played 14 games in his second season despite earning $1million a year and will be well short of the Tex benchmark when he turns 21. We should also find it easy to lure Joe Daniher who only played 26 games in his first two seasons and will turn 22 before he hits the magical 50 games (Tex hit 50 games a couple of weeks after his 21st birthday).

One reason many uneducated fans believe that Tex was "held back" by Craigy is that an anomaly in the NSW Rookie system would have allowed Tex to play as a 17 year old despite the fact that all other players in his draft year had to turn 18 in the year before they played their first match. He was brought to Adelaide as a 17 year old by the AFC (and Craigy) to accelerate his development and it was decided that it would be best to give him a full year at Norwood. Whilst he showed a lot of early promise with the Legs he only hit the headlines during the SANFL finals in 2008.

So if your definition of poor treatment was for Craigy to wait until 4 months after his actual draft year to give him a game (in round 1 no less) and to give him more AFL games before he turned 21 than 99% of key forwards (including many top 5 draft picks) then yeah he was given a very tough start to his career.

Gunston won our young player of the year award so we obviously rated him.

The reason he left had more to do with having to drive to Elizabeth for training

 

[Mike Smyth]

Apart from Brisbane, is there another club who has come even close to losing the quality of talent we have lost over the last 6 years?

 

[Bacon8]

Apart from Brisbane, is there another club who has come even close to losing the quality of talent we have lost over the last 6 years?

Given 'quality' is subjective, GWS?

Boyd, O'Rourke, Treloar, Hampton, Tyson, Hombsch, Bruce, Plowman are all 1st rounders/highly rated kids.

Could say Carlton - Menzel, Henderson, Laidler, Betts, Jacobs.



I'm sure I'm missing a player or two.

 

[baldandbroke]

Apart from Brisbane, is there another club who has come even close to losing the quality of talent we have lost over the last 6 years?

This has been done before MS, we aren't much worse off than most clubs.

<EDIT> Especially when you look at the ins vs the outs

 

[Bacon8]

This has been done before MS, we aren't much worse off than most clubs.

<EDIT> Especially when you look at the ins vs the outs

Ins

The Out page missed Pettard leaving Melb for Rich - as it was via Rookie to being with - and I have missed more upgrades in there [McKernan for one]

 

[Elite Crow]

This is sooo yesterday but just to put the facts on the table.

1) Tex debuted in round 1 2009 as an 18 year old.

2) In his first three seasons he played 45 AFL games. He was one of the youngest key forwards in the history of the AFL to reach 50 games.

3) He was sent back to the twos on a number of occasions which of course has never happened to any other promising key forwards.

Based on the "fact" that Tex was treated so harshly in his early years, surely we can pick up Tom Boyd who only played 14 games in his second season despite earning $1million a year and will be well short of the Tex benchmark when he turns 21. We should also find it easy to lure Joe Daniher who only played 26 games in his first two seasons and will turn 22 before he hits the magical 50 games (Tex hit 50 games a couple of weeks after his 21st birthday).

One reason many uneducated fans believe that Tex was "held back" by Craigy is that an anomaly in the NSW Rookie system would have allowed Tex to play as a 17 year old despite the fact that all other players in his draft year had to turn 18 in the year before they played their first match. He was brought to Adelaide as a 17 year old by the AFC (and Craigy) to accelerate his development and it was decided that it would be best to give him a full year at Norwood. Whilst he showed a lot of early promise with the Legs he only hit the headlines during the SANFL finals in 2008.

So if your definition of poor treatment was for Craigy to wait until 4 months after his actual draft year to give him a game (in round 1 no less) and to give him more AFL games before he turned 21 than 99% of key forwards (including many top 5 draft picks) then yeah he was given a very tough start to his career.

Neil Craig played Tex because his goal kicking performances demanded it.

In 2009 he kicked 23.19 from 14 games
2010 35.28 from 18 games
2011 32.13 from 11

After a couple of quiet games Tex would be dropped even though at the time we carried Tippett through lean patches.

Tom Boyd and Daniher havent got close to replicating what Tex did in his first 3 years. Besides Joe played 5 games in his first and nearly every game since.

 

[OneGreatClub]

View attachment 199348

Ins

The Out page missed Pettard leaving Melb for Rich - as it was via Rookie to being with - and I have missed more upgrades in there [McKernan for one]

Port did well by looks of this table then

 

[Elite Crow]

Given 'quality' is subjective, GWS?

Boyd, O'Rourke, Treloar, Hampton, Tyson, Hombsch, Bruce, Plowman are all 1st rounders/highly rated kids.

Could say Carlton - Menzel, Henderson, Laidler, Betts, Jacobs.

View attachment 199346

I'm sure I'm missing a player or two.

I am not sure I would be too proud of comparing ourselves with a fledgling club in a non football state with player retention.

As for subjective quality, I am sure most would agree Danger, Tippett, Gunston, Bock and Davis are ahead of the Carlton list you mentioned.

 

[baldandbroke]

Out
Above Avg: Dangerfield, Gunston, Davis, Tippett, ?Bock?
Average: Vince, Maric, Kerridge, Griffin
Below Avg: Wright, Riley, Knights, Armstrong, Sellar

In
Above Avg: Jacobs, Lynch, Betts, Jenkins, ?Menzel?
Average: Pods, Cheney, Seedsman, Hampton, Gore
Below Avg: Tambling, Johnson, Graham, Lowden

Compare the top 3 ins and outs of all the teams in those lists, not easy to do

Feel free to fill in the gaps - but you can see that there aren't many that have good ins without losing some good outs. Freo and Syndey look like two standouts in this regard.

Adelaide - Dangerfield, Gunston, Davis / Jacobs, Lynch, Betts
Brisbane - ? / Beams, Christensen, ?
Carlton - Yarran, Betts, Jacobs / Thomas, ?
Collingwood - Beams, Shaw, Wellingham / Treloar, Greenwood, Varcoe
Essendon - Carlisle, Ryder, Jenkins / Goddard, Cooney, Chapman
Freo - ? / Bennell, Griffin, Pearce
Geelong - Ablett, Mumford, Christenson / Dangerfield, Caddy, Rivers
Gold Coast - Bennell, Dixon, Caddy / Ablett, Rischitelli, Bock
GWS - Boyd, Treloar, Hombsch / Mumford, Ward, Shaw
Hawks - Franklin, Kennedy, McGlynn / Burgoyne, Gunston, Lake
Melbourne - Frawley, Rivers, Scully / Vince, Dawes, ?
North - Hale, Greenwood, McIntosh / Dal Santo, Higgins, Waite
Port - Burgoyne, Chaplin, Pearce / Ryder, Hombsch, Dixon
Richmond - Schulz, White, Nahas / Maric, Chaplin, Yarran
Saints - Goddard, Dal Santo, Ball / Carlisle, ?
Sydney - ? / Franklin, Kennedy, Tippett
West Coast - ? / Hill, Wellingham, Jetta
Western Bulldogs - Lake, Ward, Higgins / Hall, Boyd, Crameri

 

[Elite Crow]

When analysing a teams retention performance, I think two things need to be considered:

1) Forget what the player turned out like, at the time what was his worth?
2) Players you bring in has nothing to do with player retention, that's player acquisition.

There is no reason we couldn't have kept the majority of our players and still recruited Betts, Jacobs and Lynch.

 

[Bacon8]

I am not sure I would be too proud of comparing ourselves with a fledgling club in a non football state with player retention.

As for subjective quality, I am sure most would agree Danger, Tippett, Gunston, Bock and Davis are ahead of the Carlton list you mentioned.

Absolutely.

 

[Don Muraco]

God I love Newcastle Utd at the moment

And Wolfsburg

 

[Sanders]

This is sooo yesterday but just to put the facts on the table.

1) Tex debuted in round 1 2009 as an 18 year old.

2) In his first three seasons he played 45 AFL games. He was one of the youngest key forwards in the history of the AFL to reach 50 games.

3) He was sent back to the twos on a number of occasions which of course has never happened to any other promising key forwards.

Based on the "fact" that Tex was treated so harshly in his early years, surely we can pick up Tom Boyd who only played 14 games in his second season despite earning $1million a year and will be well short of the Tex benchmark when he turns 21. We should also find it easy to lure Joe Daniher who only played 26 games in his first two seasons and will turn 22 before he hits the magical 50 games (Tex hit 50 games a couple of weeks after his 21st birthday).

One reason many uneducated fans believe that Tex was "held back" by Craigy is that an anomaly in the NSW Rookie system would have allowed Tex to play as a 17 year old despite the fact that all other players in his draft year had to turn 18 in the year before they played their first match. He was brought to Adelaide as a 17 year old by the AFC (and Craigy) to accelerate his development and it was decided that it would be best to give him a full year at Norwood. Whilst he showed a lot of early promise with the Legs he only hit the headlines during the SANFL finals in 2008.

So if your definition of poor treatment was for Craigy to wait until 4 months after his actual draft year to give him a game (in round 1 no less) and to give him more AFL games before he turned 21 than 99% of key forwards (including many top 5 draft picks) then yeah he was given a very tough start to his career.

That's more than a bit of invention in your facts, and conspicuous omission too

You've neglected that tex's poor treatment continued long past his draft year, and it's dishonest to compare him to Boyd etc for ove reason: PERFORMANCE

Tex was performing, something your fiction ignores

You know what else it ignores? That Tex himself felt aggrieved

So all you're really doing is circling the things that matter but not landing on any of them

 

[Scorpus]

Given 'quality' is subjective, GWS?

Boyd, O'Rourke, Treloar, Hampton, Tyson, Hombsch, Bruce, Plowman are all 1st rounders/highly rated kids.

Could say Carlton - Menzel, Henderson, Laidler, Betts, Jacobs.

View attachment 199346

I'm sure I'm missing a player or two.

Carlton have lost Menzel, Henderson, Laidler, Betts and Jacobs in addition to Yarran, Garlett, and Bell who were all decent players

 

[Elite Crow]

Carlton have lost Menzel, Henderson, Laidler, Betts and Jacobs in addition to Yarran, Garlett, and Bell who were all decent players

And over half of them they didn't try very hard to keep or let go, not the same thing

 

[baldandbroke]

When analysing a teams retention performance, I think two things need to be considered:

1) Forget what the player turned out like, at the time what was his worth?
2) Players you bring in has nothing to do with player retention, that's player acquisition.

There is no reason we couldn't have kept the majority of our players and still recruited Betts, Jacobs and Lynch.

But not many teams have kept all of their good players, moved on duds AND brought in high caliber.

Sydney used extra $. The expansion teams had extra cash to splash.

If we lost guns because they disliked the club and wanted a change ... And not brought in any quality - that would point to a retention problem imo. How many players have left to either go home or get big $ ? Nearly all of them?

I agree that losing players at their peak needs to be taken into account - bock comes to mind - even though he ended up not delivering. But then you can't put up Gunstan as a massive loss coz he was potentially going to be good.

Can't have it both ways.

I think player retention has less to do with culture, than it does with on field success or the promise of it. Sure people can argue that they are the same things ... But I disagree.