List Mgmt. 2017 List Management: Contracts, Trading, Drafting, Academy

[LordLucifer]

I'd say conservatively if they nail every draft pick and trade (with SOS in charge an impossibility) they are a minimum of 5 years away from being a legitimate contender.

I'll just stop you right there Mr. Giant.

Who was responsible for putting the GWS list together ??

That's right, SOS so it's a little rich to completely dismiss his ability to trade & draft right now.

 

[Determinant]

I'll just stop you right there Mr. Giant.

Who was responsible for putting the GWS list together ??

That's right, SOS so it's a little rich to completely dismiss his ability to trade & draft right now.

Seriously, you guys lining up to argue???
Go do it on the Draft and Trade board and not here in a thread created for OUR board members to discuss stuff, k

Next one gets a ban hammer

 

[dlanod]

I'll just stop you right there Mr. Giant.

Who was responsible for putting the GWS list together ??

That's right, SOS so it's a little rich to completely dismiss his ability to trade & draft right now.

I think that's exactly what he's referring to. GWS hasn't exactly had a great strike rate while SOS was in charge. 50% of first rounders in 2011 remaining, 40% in 2012, 33% in 2013 and 0% in 2014. First rounders are supposed to be a team's bread and butter and SOS was unfortunately not up to scratch.

 

[LordLucifer]

I think that's exactly what he's referring to. GWS hasn't exactly had a great strike rate while SOS was in charge. 50% of first rounders in 2011 remaining, 40% in 2012, 33% in 2013 and 0% in 2014. First rounders are supposed to be a team's bread and butter and SOS was unfortunately not up to scratch.

Really ??

I thought he was instrumental in building the list over those first two drafts.

 

[Carl Tone]

shouldnt Carlton worry about trying to re-sign weitering, c.curnow, McKay, etc. all will get offers from other clubs if Carlton don't come to the table. Not to mention you have more first rounders in your team than us so the salary cap squeeze should be hurting Carlton soon as well

Bloody hope they sign all of them!

 

[dlanod]

Really ??

I thought he was instrumental in building the list over those first two drafts.

I think he did ok - he wasn't a hindrance, but IMO a good list manager needs to show a reasonable consistency to get the first round picks right.

I can see why Carlton picked him up - homegrown boy, great history there, and had three or four years experience in the end - but the hit rate of GWS drafting definitely decreased rapidly and the shine was/is coming off him. Especially after all of Marchbank, Pickett and Ahern leaving, following O'Rourke and Plowman.

With that in mind I definitely wouldn't consider him an above average drafter.

Edit: 3/11 after 2011. If someone not named Kinnear Beatson played out that rate of first round hits over a longer period they would've been fired.

 

[Colonial]

Really ??

I thought he was instrumental in building the list over those first two drafts.

What ever gives you hope for the future.

But no.


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[coniglio_number1]

Really ??

I thought he was instrumental in building the list over those first two drafts.

He wasn't involved with the preselected players like Shiel, treloar, Cameron so I won't include them. And only going by first rounders.

Patton - hit
Coniglio- hit
Tyson - hit
WHE - hit
buntine - top 5?
Haynes - hit
Tomlinson- hit
Sumner - miss
Greene - hit
Smith - hit
(Buntine over Wingard)

Whitfield - hit
O'rourke - miss
Plowman - miss
Jaksch - miss
Corr - hit
(Terrible misses in the top 3)

Boyd - miss bar 1 game
Kelly - hit
McCarthy - hit
(Can't blame him on Boyd)

Pickett - miss
Marchbank - hit
Ahern - miss
McKenna - should've been a rookie selection as opposed to the second round
(Worst performance by far)

 

[dlanod]

He wasn't involved with the preselected players like Shiel, treloar, Cameron so I won't include them. And only going by first rounders.

Patton - hit
Coniglio- hit
Tyson - hit
WHE - hit
buntine - top 5?
Haynes - hit
Tomlinson- hit
Sumner - miss
Greene - hit
Smith - hit
(Buntine over Wingard)

Whitfield - hit
O'rourke - miss
Plowman - miss
Jaksch - miss
Corr - hit
(Terrible misses in the top 3)

Boyd - miss bar 1 game
Kelly - hit
McCarthy - hit
(Can't blame him on Boyd)

Pickett - miss
Marchbank - hit
Ahern - miss
McKenna - should've been a rookie selection as opposed to the second round
(Worst performance by far)

I don't count "hit"s for other teams in a recruiter's performance. They should be factoring in likelihood to remain with the club when drafting.

 

[Andre the Giant]

I'll just stop you right there Mr. Giant.

Who was responsible for putting the GWS list together ??

That's right, SOS so it's a little rich to completely dismiss his ability to trade & draft right now.

Our original list build was created by Neville Stibbard.

He chose the 17yo's:
Treloar
Cameron
Shiel
Bugg
Kennedy (A)
Hombsch
Wilson
Bruce
Hampton

He was then ousted just prior to the 2012 Draft - http://www.theaustralian.com.au/spo...t/news-story/2e82003b929f2a17934282369550ec2b

Fair to say he would have done a lot of work on that draft which was our most prolific:
Patton
Coniglio
Hoskin-Elliott
Tomlinson
Haynes
Greene
Smith
Adams
Tyson

I have little doubt if we had managed to keep Stibbard we would have won a flag by now as he would have had a lot less misses than SOS who made some almighty **** ups.

I don't give SOS any credit for the selection of Whitfield (consensus number 1) however he did well to get Lobb, Williams and fight hard for Kelly and McCarthy was a good selection. How he missed Grundy and Wines beggars belief but you can't get them all right.

All in all his efforts with us with the chips he had in hand were pretty disappointing.

 

[Raymann]

Our original list build was created by Neville Stibbard.

He chose the 17yo's:
Treloar
Cameron
Shiel
Bugg
Kennedy (A)
Hombsch
Wilson
Bruce
Hampton

He was then ousted just prior to the 2012 Draft - http://www.theaustralian.com.au/spo...t/news-story/2e82003b929f2a17934282369550ec2b

Fair to say he would have done a lot of work on that draft which was our most prolific:
Patton
Coniglio
Hoskin-Elliott
Tomlinson
Haynes
Greene
Smith
Adams
Tyson

I have little doubt if we had managed to keep Stibbard we would have won a flag by now as he would have had a lot less misses than SOS who made some almighty **** ups.

I don't give SOS any credit for the selection of Whitfield (consensus number 1) however he did well to get Lobb, Williams and fight hard for Kelly and McCarthy was a good selection. How he missed Grundy and Wines beggars belief but you can't get them all right.

All in all his efforts with us with the chips he had in hand were pretty disappointing.

He decided against Wines as he thought the Giants had enough inside mids. He is also in the camp that you don't draft ruckman you trade for them

 

[coniglio_number1]

Our original list build was created by Neville Stibbard.

He chose the 17yo's:
Treloar
Cameron
Shiel
Bugg
Kennedy (A)
Hombsch
Wilson
Bruce
Hampton

He was then ousted just prior to the 2012 Draft - http://www.theaustralian.com.au/spo...t/news-story/2e82003b929f2a17934282369550ec2b

Fair to say he would have done a lot of work on that draft which was our most prolific:
Patton
Coniglio
Hoskin-Elliott
Tomlinson
Haynes
Greene
Smith
Adams
Tyson

I have little doubt if we had managed to keep Stibbard we would have won a flag by now as he would have had a lot less misses than SOS who made some almighty **** ups.

I don't give SOS any credit for the selection of Whitfield (consensus number 1) however he did well to get Lobb, Williams and fight hard for Kelly and McCarthy was a good selection. How he missed Grundy and Wines beggars belief but you can't get them all right.

All in all his efforts with us with the chips he had in hand were pretty disappointing.

Williams was a free hit as an academy kid. I give sos no credit for that

 

[coniglio_number1]

O'rourke at 2 astounds me.

 

[dlanod]

Minor nitpicks...

He chose the 17yo's:
Treloar
Cameron
Shiel
Bugg
Kennedy (A)
Hombsch
Wilson
Bruce
Hampton

Williams was a free hit as an academy kid. I give sos no credit for that

Adam Kennedy was a prelisted overage player (19 year old), and Bruce, Hampton and Williams were zone picks.

 

[coniglio_number1]

Haha brisbaneCFC is whinging about us now in the Carlton board.

 

[Andre the Giant]

O'rourke at 2 astounds me.

Totally agree, in most phantoms he was a Pick 5-7. Wines was a tall developed mid and was something we didn't have. SOS had Stringer and Menzel as his next picks behind O'Rourke.

Taking Plowman at 3 was ridiculous as even though we clearly lacked depth at that time in defence you do not pick for needs at the pointy end, you take best available unless you have a compelling reason (the potential draftee being a flight risk).

Anyway, it's fish and chips paper now...

 

[Andre the Giant]

He decided against Wines as he thought the Giants had enough inside mids. He is also in the camp that you don't draft ruckman you trade for them

Get what you say but don't understand it as Ollie is a taller style of mid (same size as O'Rourke) and would have been a point of difference. Subsequent to this we have addressed it as we have Griff, Setters, Taranto, Kennedy(M) but at the time??

Grundy looked a generational talent and we didn't have a young ruckman. He is turning out to be as good as he looked (was a rumour he and Wingard tanked interviews).

 

[dlanod]

Get what you say but don't understand it as Ollie is a taller style of mid (same size as O'Rourke) and would have been a point of difference. Subsequent to this we have addressed it as we have Griff, Setters, Taranto, Kennedy(M) but at the time??

Grundy looked a generational talent and we didn't have a young ruckman. He is turning out to be as good as he looked (was a rumour he and Wingard tanked interviews).

From what I heard and has been reported since:

• Wingard directly told us that he'd leave after two years.
• Grundy was quite forward in interviews in interviewing the clubs as well, and how well they could develop him, etc. Some found this off-putting.

 

[coniglio_number1]

From what I heard and has been reported since:

• Wingard directly told us that he'd leave after two years.
• Grundy was quite forward in interviews in interviewing the clubs as well, and how well they could develop him, etc. Some found this off-putting.

I understand the wingard part but Judd told west coast the same and stayed with them till they got the cup. Top 10 picks should always be best available

 

[Determinant]

Haha brisbaneCFC is whinging about us now in the Carlton board.

Well at least he's doing it on the right board

 

[Andre the Giant]

From what I heard and has been reported since:

• Wingard directly told us that he'd leave after two years.
• Grundy was quite forward in interviews in interviewing the clubs as well, and how well they could develop him, etc. Some found this off-putting.

I think both Grundy and Wingard wanted to get to their clubs of choice and did what they felt they had too. Its a shame we didn't get Grundy as he would have been a perfect foil and replacement for big Mummy but I guess as Raymann suggests we can just find a developed one.

I really dislike Wingard so not phased there...he is a Group 1 flog.

 

[LordLucifer]

Our original list build was created by Neville Stibbard.

He chose the 17yo's:
Treloar
Cameron
Shiel
Bugg
Kennedy (A)
Hombsch
Wilson
Bruce
Hampton

He was then ousted just prior to the 2012 Draft - http://www.theaustralian.com.au/spo...t/news-story/2e82003b929f2a17934282369550ec2b

Fair to say he would have done a lot of work on that draft which was our most prolific:
Patton
Coniglio
Hoskin-Elliott
Tomlinson
Haynes
Greene
Smith
Adams
Tyson

I have little doubt if we had managed to keep Stibbard we would have won a flag by now as he would have had a lot less misses than SOS who made some almighty **** ups.

I don't give SOS any credit for the selection of Whitfield (consensus number 1) however he did well to get Lobb, Williams and fight hard for Kelly and McCarthy was a good selection. How he missed Grundy and Wines beggars belief but you can't get them all right.

All in all his efforts with us with the chips he had in hand were pretty disappointing.

Reading that article. its hard to know what to think of Stibbard, was he a genius or a completely defiant tyrant ??

Whilst you say that you would of won a flag by now if SOS had less misses (that is a big call), what you are forgetting is that even the best of the best recruiters get some wrong. To date, I'm not aware of anyone with a 100% strike rate.

Thing is, SOS still called those names, if he was as bad as you say, he would of cocked up more than you have said.

Overall, at the end of the season, your club has to shed 6 players just like every other club does. Given your massive talent base, all clubs (Carlton included) will be looking at who you want to jettison, its a natural instinct to try and pick players off the top teams. Hawthorn have had that issue for the past 6-8 years too. In our case, your offcuts are an improvement on a fair few of what we have already. Throw in to the mix that we are coming from a long way back thanks to a decade or two of poor recruiting plus there appears to be a good relationship between the two clubs and it makes sense to assume that the trades between us may continue.

I'm not as gung-ho about players like Hopper leaving as others are even though he would be a terrific get for us. It will really depend on his enjoyment levels as to whether he stays put or not. If he can see a prosperous future (and who wouldn't right at the moment), then he should stay for less $$ but the chance to be a premiership player.

If he thinks there are too many ahead of him in the pecking order, only then would he be on the open market.

 

[coniglio_number1]

With downie having mental issues and likely to return home I can see us taking Richards as a certainty. Would be great having 2 local developing ruckmen on the list

 

[LordLucifer]

From what I heard and has been reported since:

• Wingard directly told us that he'd leave after two years.
• Grundy was quite forward in interviews in interviewing the clubs as well, and how well they could develop him, etc. Some found this off-putting.

Wasn't aware of the Wingard thing but did hear the same about Grundy. If that is the case, both were risks you didn't need to take especially with so many others in the draft pool to choose from.

 

[coniglio_number1]

Reading that article. its hard to know what to think of Stibbard, was he a genius or a completely defiant tyrant ??

Whilst you say that you would of won a flag by now if SOS had less misses (that is a big call), what you are forgetting is that even the best of the best recruiters get some wrong. To date, I'm not aware of anyone with a 100% strike rate.

Thing is, SOS still called those names, if he was as bad as you say, he would of cocked up more than you have said.

Overall, at the end of the season, your club has to shed 6 players just like every other club does. Given your massive talent base, all clubs (Carlton included) will be looking at who you want to jettison, its a natural instinct to try and pick players off the top teams. Hawthorn have had that issue for the past 6-8 years too. In our case, your offcuts are an improvement on a fair few of what we have already. Throw in to the mix that we are coming from a long way back thanks to a decade or two of poor recruiting plus there appears to be a good relationship between the two clubs and it makes sense to assume that the trades between us may continue.

I'm not as gung-ho about players like Hopper leaving as others are even though he would be a terrific get for us. It will really depend on his enjoyment levels as to whether he stays put or not. If he can see a prosperous future (and who wouldn't right at the moment), then he should stay for less $$ but the chance to be a premiership player.

If he thinks there are too many ahead of him in the pecking order, only then would he be on the open market.

I just can't see a best 22 midfielder in a flag contending team that is from NSW and whose parents are foundation members leave. He is a competitive athlete and I would imagine that reaching the ultimate glory is more important to him than mere currency