Analysis 2017 List Management Discussion - Part 3

[Masqualero]

Kreuzer is every bit as athletic as Grundy, and I'm not sure NicNat is his former self between the weight WCE had him stack on and the ACL injury.

And as I said, it's a trick play, not something you roll out regularly. None of them would be able to do it for more than a couple of minutes a quarter without their team mates having to change their tactics to compliment it.

Disagree, on the athleticism. I think Kreuz is better at reading the play but Grundy moves much more smoothly along the turf, has better balance.
I just doubt its benefits even as a trick play, if I was a quick mid I'd be licking my lips if Kruez stood next to me.

 

[Moody Blue]

You mean, Crameri was a proven goal kicker, prior to taking a year off courtesy of WADA.

He's a twenty-nine year old 190cm, 98kg key forward, who you're looking to swap for Cas, who is twenty-seven, 201cm, 103kg and a ruck/forward - because, as I said, why would you have two inaccurate key forwards - who provides a chop-out kick down the line, something that Crameri doesn't do due, as stated, to being a full 11 cm shorter and lighter.

There is no guarantee that Crameri comes back as he left the game. I know Casboult can be frustrating as all getout, but he at least gets a look in from our gameplan. Crameri wouldn't even see the thing, as his thing is more clever one on one work rather than crash and bash. Name the last time Cas got a genuine one on one; it doesn't happen atm.

And, as I said, he's a notoriously inaccurate kick for goal. We have our own up and comers to play key forward. Let's leave Crameri where he is.

Stewart Crameri was 24-25 in 2012, and had been in an AFL club for 3 years. Whatever sophistry you have that excuses him from his responsibility to ensure that anything that he takes to improve his performance is WADA approved is irrelevant to that fact. He had sat through seminars - as all AFL players must - telling him the appropriate steps to take to ensure compliance, and he chose to ignore them. He chose to keep the details of the programme from their club doctor.

That excuse, that so many people used, "they're just kids."? He wasn't one of those new players, awed by Hird and the club. He had been there for years. He knew his responsibilities, and he chose to ignore them, either through laziness or through a desire not to know. This has cost him, and so it should.

All of this is irrelevant to the fact that he is the wrong choice for us, as we already have an older KPF on our list and we hardly have need to clutter our ones up with another.

How many people did he kill or maim or injure? None
Was he punished? Yes
Is he entitled to another chance? Yes
He is a goal kicker who will add 30-50 (depending on a few factors) to our tally. I am not proposing we sign him up to a 5 year deal. We re-signed Phillips who will not play a game in the seniors purely as insurance. We have re-signed Daisy who apart from costing us a lot has given us one average year of football. If there are better options out there, then let me know.

We need to kick goals and the big lumbering Casboult is not the answer. His day and the day of forwards like him is nearly at an end. Mobility, fast forward line is the next phase of footy. We had that type of forward line but we gave them away.

 

[Sector 7G]

How many people did he kill or maim or injure? None
Was he punished? Yes
Is he entitled to another chance? Yes
He is a goal kicker who will add 30-50 (depending on a few factors) to our tally. I am not proposing we sign him up to a 5 year deal. We re-signed Phillips who will not play a game in the seniors purely as insurance. We have re-signed Daisy who apart from costing us a lot has given us one average year of football. If there are better options out there, then let me know.

We need to kick goals and the big lumbering Casboult is not the answer. His day and the day of forwards like him is nearly at an end. Mobility, fast forward line is the next phase of footy. We had that type of forward line but we gave them away.

Crameri was a flat track bully who kicked bags in big wins and went missing in tight games/losses. * supporters were not particularly upset to see him go.

Pass

 

[Moody Blue]

You mean, Crameri was a proven goal kicker, prior to taking a year off courtesy of WADA.

Stewart Crameri was 24-25 in 2012, and had been in an AFL club for 3 years. Whatever sophistry you have that excuses him from his responsibility to ensure that anything that he takes to improve his performance is WADA approved is irrelevant to that fact. He had sat through seminars - as all AFL players must - telling him the appropriate steps to take to ensure compliance, and he chose to ignore them. He chose to keep the details of the programme from their club doctor. (Really Doc Reid knew nothing about what they were taking? Rubbish. He even said he thought it was all B.S and it wouldn't work)

That excuse, that so many people used, "they're just kids."? He wasn't one of those new players, awed by Hird and the club. He had been there for years. He knew his responsibilities, and he chose to ignore them, either through laziness or through a desire not to know. This has cost him, and so it should.

All of this is irrelevant to the fact that he is the wrong choice for us, as we already have an older KPF on our list and we hardly have need to clutter our ones up with another.

Doc Reid knew nothing about what they were taking? Rubbish. He even said he thought it was all B.S and it wouldn't work, so I am not sure where you pulled that one from. Crameri and the others have to live with the fear that they have no idea what they took, and what possible consequences they may face later in their life. They erred in trusting the club and leaders.

BTW If the AFL ever got serious about drug testing for recreational drugs, they would have 50-70 players suspended each year. Abuse is rife in the competition including at our own beloved club. Let's cut with the hypocrisy and double standards.

 

[Captain crippa]

How many people did he kill or maim or injure? None
Was he punished? Yes
Is he entitled to another chance? Yes
He is a goal kicker who will add 30-50 (depending on a few factors) to our tally. I am not proposing we sign him up to a 5 year deal. We re-signed Phillips who will not play a game in the seniors purely as insurance. We have re-signed Daisy who apart from costing us a lot has given us one average year of football. If there are better options out there, then let me know.

We need to kick goals and the big lumbering Casboult is not the answer. His day and the day of forwards like him is nearly at an end. Mobility, fast forward line is the next phase of footy. We had that type of forward line but we gave them away.

Crameri imo would be the worst possible choice
List clogger
Old
Would be at max a 30 goal a year prospect
Goes against the reset completely
Just a big no no and no

 

[thylacine60]

Guilt by association. That W/Coast flag was tainted as was the 94 flag.
Technically none of the Weagles were ever caught, like at Hawthorn (allegedly).
You are labeling a player who was told by the club, the doctor and his coaches that what he was being given was legal. There is a big difference between knowingly taking illegal substances and the club authorizing the taking of a substance. Hindsight now indicates that all of the Essendon players should have checked, but they trusted their leaders, which is understandable when you form such close bonds. Not many have blamed the players for what occurred, they blamed the administration and appalling actions of Ser James, the medical staff and his assistants.

BTW every club and most players use performance enhancement drugs every week, and it is legal. They are called pain killers or jabs, which numb pain and allow a player to get onto the field. If that is not a definition of performance enhancing drugs, then I don't know what is. If you need a jab to get onto the field then you are not fit enough to play and should be rested or taken from the field.

In my day it was ice(not the drug), beer and a *** to reduce the pain.

peds improve your performance - pain-killers only get you back to where you were at

 

[Moody Blue]

Crameri was a flat track bully who kicked bags in big wins and went missing in tight games/losses. * supporters were not particularly upset to see him go.

Pass

Fair enough. Just waiting to see who is going to kick our goals.

 

[CJMB]

a judd at 3 a ratten at 10 a ken hunter at 30.................please............

I think Oscar is too young for the draft...

 

[thylacine60]

no more lame excuses carlton

 

[Jabba73]

Fair enough. Just waiting to see who is going to kick our goals.

SOS, been kicking goals since we hired him.

 

[Gethelred]

How many people did he kill or maim or injure? None
Was he punished? Yes
Is he entitled to another chance? Yes
He is a goal kicker who will add 30-50 (depending on a few factors) to our tally. I am not proposing we sign him up to a 5 year deal. We re-signed Phillips who will not play a game in the seniors purely as insurance. We have re-signed Daisy who apart from costing us a lot has given us one average year of football. If there are better options out there, then let me know.

We need to kick goals and the big lumbering Casboult is not the answer. His day and the day of forwards like him is nearly at an end. Mobility, fast forward line is the next phase of footy. We had that type of forward line but we gave them away.

You seem to think I'm prejudging him for the WADA penalties, and that I'm allowing that to influence my opinion as to whether he'd be a good/bad pick up.

I disagree near completely with your assertion from your earlier post that, because he trusted what he was told by others that he shouldn't be held to the same standard of guilt as others. Your post listed a number of people he placed trust in foolhardily, and you think that minimises his complicity in keeping the situation quiet?

But, again, that's completely irrelevant to the player his is, now. Crameri has never had to deal with the quality of forward entry that Casboult has; early in his career, Essendon weren't poor, and when he got traded they were still middle of the ladder. He is a far more stay at home forward than Cas will ever be, and he is incapable of playing the ruck/KPF hybrid role that Cas plays for us.

Your biggest issue is that you're equating what Casboult does with what Tom Hawkins does. Look at Cas' GPS statistics, and you'll see a player that roams broadly, as he doesn't just lumber around inside the arcs, like Patton or Hawkins; he provides a contest for the last resort down the line kicks that we use entirely too often, as our opposition have too long to get back and set up, as well as rucking to give Kruezer a rest.

You want to replace the most important role player in our team - as he covers CHF, FF, ruck - with an old FF who is more than 10 cm smaller, who has had a year out of AFL, is coming back from injury, and is two years older? And is just as inaccurate?

And finally, we have Charlie Curnow already playing ones. We have Harry McKay having played two senior matches in a year crueled by injury, yet he was still good enough to kick a few in the worst scoring side in the competition. We have Jack Silvagni, who has averaged a goal a game for his first two years, again, in the worst scoring side in the competition. We have Jacob Weitering, who can play at either end, should Macreadie/Marchbank/Plowman/Jones push him out. We have three/four young KPF running around, and you want to add another KPF to the mix, to steal spots off the developing kids, who have improvement in them and just need consistent footy?

No. Let the dogs keep Crameri. Not because he's a convicted drug cheat, but because he's not the right way for us to go. The game might be moving away from the monster KPF of the past, so why would we get a smaller version of one?

 

[Jimthegreat]

Can he be named as back pocket, to pick up opponents resting ruckman?

Sounds something out of the 60s that one.

 

[Dadda Dave]

And because he's a convicted drug cheat.

 

[Blue Pulse]

Didn't mind Crameri as a player, probably the only one from *FC. A tough, hard, no nonsense footballer. However, nearly 2 years out of the game and hitting 30, just can't see him working for us. I think he will find it hard to get his body back to where he wants needs it to be.
We have the basics of a good fwd line, we just need Pickett to come on a bit quicker to have that fast, sneaky goal kicker.

 

[LanceRomance]

Toumpas just re-signed with port

Will be difficult to pry next year

 

[Stamos]

Second List Lodgement was yesterday, we have 7 remaining spots (Senior and Rookie), club website saying we will have 4 draft selections, so unless we pick up 2 more DFAs, or hit the PSD, looks like we'll have less than 40 on the Senior List.

http://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2017-11-09/second-list-lodgement-closes

 

[Jimmae]

Second List Lodgement was yesterday, we have 7 remaining spots (Senior and Rookie), club website saying we will have 4 draft selections, so unless we pick up 2 more DFAs, or hit the PSD, looks like we'll have less than 40 on the Senior List.

http://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/2017-11-09/second-list-lodgement-closes

Might have more to do with the fact that we've traded our 5th (Gibbs) and 6th (Lobbe) round picks away, and the current draft order release only goes for six rounds.

 

[Captain crippa]

Still can't believe they got away with that...

Grigg rucking in gf was hilarious
I’ve never seen that before
I’m sure it’s been done but not in gf
Anyways grigg is a premiership player now so good on him

 

[Heres Waite]

Grigg rucking in gf was hilarious
I’ve never seen that before
I’m sure it’s been done but not in gf
Anyways grigg is a premiership player now so good on him

I remember a game back in the late 90's where all the Adelaide ruckman were out. The Crows went into the game with no ruckman and instead put a small guy Trent Ormand-Allen into the ruck. Peter Everett from the Saints ended up with 30 odd hit outs but Ormand-Allen was effectively an extra midfielder once the ball hit the deck. He had a cracking game and the Crows won by like 6 goals.

 

[thylacine60]

Didn't * overlook the need for a ruckman in Adelaide once - to their ever-loving embarrassment?

 

[footyfan1978]

Might have more to do with the fact that we've traded our 5th (Gibbs) and 6th (Lobbe) round picks away, and the current draft order release only goes for six rounds.

This is what I have always assumed.
Someone on this forum somewhere made an attempt to do draft order in line with all the clubs list vacancies.
I will try to track it down and edit it in here in a few moments. It is probably not totally how it will pan out but would give reasonable take on where our picks will fall after 73 should we use them.

Here is his attempt from thread at https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/2017-nominal-afl-draft-order.1160828

It shows us have 2 more picks after 73 in the 90's

I've gone and done an estimate of the final draft order.

This is the draft order, correlated with the number of senior player vacancies at each club and confirmed Rookie upgrades factored in.

Rd. Pick # Club
1 | 1 | 1 | Brisbane Lions
1 | 2 | 1 | Fremantle
1 | 3 | 1 | Carlton
1 | 4 | 1 | North Melbourne
1 | 5 | 2 | Fremantle
1 | 6 | 1 | Collingwood
1 | 7 | 1 | St Kilda
1 | 8 | 2 | St Kilda
1 | 9 | 1 | Western Bulldogs
1 | 10 | 2 | Carlton
1 | 11 | 1 | Greater Western Sydney
1 | 12 | 1 | Adelaide
1 | 13 | 1 | West Coast
1 | 14 | 1 | Sydney
1 | 15 | 2 | Brisbane Lions
1 | 16 | 2 | Western Bulldogs
1 | 17 | 1 | Richmond
1 | 18 | 3 | Brisbane Lions
1 | 19 | 1 | Gold Coast
2 | 20 | 2 | Richmond
2 | 21 | 2 | West Coast
2 | 22 | 1 | Geelong
2 | 23 | 2 | North Melbourne
2 | 24 | 2 | Geelong
2 | 25 | 3 | Richmond
2 | 26 | 3 | West Coast
2 | 27 | 2 | Greater Western Sydney
2 | 28 | 3 | Greater Western Sydney
2 | 29 | 1 | Melbourne
2 | 30 | 3 | Carlton
2 | 31 | 2 | Melbourne
2 | 32 | 4 | West Coast
2 | 33 | 2 | Sydney
2 | 34 | 3 | St Kilda
2 | 35 | 3 | Geelong
2 | 36 | 3 | Melbourne
2 | 37 | 5 | West Coast
3 | 38 | 2 | Collingwood
3 | 39 | 2 | Adelaide
3 | 40 | 4 | Brisbane Lions
3 | 41 | 2 | Gold Coast
3 | 42 | 3 | Fremantle
3 | 43 | 1 | Hawthorn
3 | 44 | 5 | Brisbane Lions
3 | 45 | 4 | St Kilda
3 | 46 | 1 | Port Adelaide
3 | 47 | 4 | Melbourne
3 | 48 | 1 | Essendon
3 | 49 | 2 | Port Adelaide
3 | 50 | 3 | Gold Coast
3 | 51 | 3 | Sydney
3 | 52 | 6 | Brisbane Lions
3 | 53 | 4 | Richmond
3 | 54 | 4 | Gold Coast
3 | 55 | 5 | Richmond
4 | 56 | 3 | Collingwood
4 | 57 | 4 | Greater Western Sydney
4 | 58 | 4 | Geelong
4 | 59 | 3 | Port Adelaide
4 | 60 | 4 | Fremantle
4 | 61 | 4 | Collingwood
4 | 62 | 4 | Port Adelaide
4 | 63 | 5 | Port Adelaide
4 | 64 | 3 | North Melbourne
4 | 65 | 5 | Greater Western Sydney
4 | 66 | 5 | Fremantle
4 | 67 | 2 | Essendon
4 | 68 | 2 | Hawthorn
4 | 69 | 6 | West Coast
4 | 70 | 5 | Collingwood
4 | 71 | 6 | Fremantle
4 | 72 | 5 | Geelong
4 | 73 | 4 | Carlton
5 | 74 | 3 | Hawthorn
5 | 75 | 5 | Gold Coast
5 | 76 | 3 | Adelaide
5 | 77 | 4 | North Melbourne
5 | 78 | 7 | Fremantle
5 | 79 | 4 | Hawthorn
5 | 80 | 3 | Western Bulldogs
5 | 81 | 8 | Fremantle
5 | 82 | 3 | Essendon
5 | 83 | 6 | Port Adelaide
5 | 84 | 7 | West Coast
5 | 85 | 4 | Sydney
5 | 86 | 6 | Greater Western Sydney
5 | 87 | 6 | Geelong
6 | 88 | 6 | Gold Coast
6 | 89 | 9 | Fremantle
6 | 90 | 5 | Hawthorn
6 | 91 | 5 | Sydney
6 | 92 | 7 | Geelong
6 | 93 | 4 | Adelaide
7 | 94 | 5 | Carlton
7 | 95 | 10 | Fremantle
7 | 96 | 6 | Sydney
8 | 97 | 6 | Carlton


list numbers source: https://www.draftguru.com.au/lists/2018

 

[Jimmae]

I reckon we'll sign Hartung after the draft if we don't have to match a bid on Penrith.

 

[ferrisb]

This is what I have always assumed.
Someone on this forum somewhere made at attempt to do draft order in line with all the clubs list vacancies.
I will try to track it down and edit it in here in a few moments. It is probably not totally how it will pan out but would give reasonable take on where our picks will fall after 73 should we use them.

Here is his attempt from thread at https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/2017-nominal-afl-draft-order.1160828

It shows us have 2 more picks after 73 in the 90's

Last 5 drafts have taken something like 77, 76, 70, 61 and 68 live picks (ignoring passes and rookie elevations).

That works out to be about 70 live picks per draft.

There might be 97 list vacancies across the league, but I assume clubs are going to increase rookie list spots at the expense of senior list spots, given rule changes.

We could end up with extra picks in the 60s and 70s. We may not like anyone there or we might have some Polson/Williamson-esque targets. But definitely some scope to take more than 3 and maybe even more than 4 ND selections.

 

[thylacine60]

sure, but how shit was russell?

 

[footyfan1978]

There might be 97 list vacancies across the league, but I assume clubs are going to increase rookie list spots at the expense of senior list spots, given rule changes.

That's right. From pick 70's onwards it will simply come down to where clubs decide to value how they use last few spots on primary list and whether they decide to make maximum use of rookie list.

There was about 77 picks in national draft last year and around 50 in rookie draft.
Combine that together and around 127 picks in both drafts combined.

Clubs will decide their strategy basically on the week leading into the draft.