Analysis 2017 List Management Discussion Part II

[F_therest]

Its easy to make that judgement now but in 2 or 3 years that assessment may be different unless of course you cant see Weitering improving too much more .

I think it's a clear win and can't see the debate.

I do expect Weitering to improve of course, but lynch is the best young key forward in the game...he had a bit of a form slump this year but he still dominated in a crap gold coast team for years.

Especially if Weitering stays down back, lynch as a key forward is far more valuable to us right now than another key defender.

Looking objectively at the deal it's a clear win for us and I think those suggesting otherwise are letting their love for Weiters cloud their judgement.

 

[Soapy V]

I think it's a clear win and can't see the debate.

I do expect Weitering to improve of course, but lynch is the best young key forward in the game...he had a bit of a form slump this year but he still dominated in a crap gold coast team for years.

Especially if Weitering stays down back, lynch as a key forward is far more valuable to us right now than another key defender.

Looking objectively at the deal it's a clear win for us and I think those suggesting otherwise are letting their love for Weiters cloud their judgement.

Not for me. Not even close. It would send real mixed messages about what Bolton and the club were doing and I reckon cause problems internally. Same theory with trading Murphy. You just don't do it. Culture means a lot and ours at the moment is very good.

Big key forwards are hugley overrated in modern football. Have a great defence that works together and importantly a winning midfield with good ball use that works both ways and you will be a top 4 side. Look at the last 5-6 flags. How many had dominate tall forwards and how did they do in finals?

I'm very comfortable what McKay Kerr Silvagni Charlie can bring once we get class and depth in our midfield. We also have tremendous flexibility with Marchbank Weitering Jones Rowe Macreadie which is another huge advantage in today's game.

 

[Iamcarlton]

I think it's a clear win and can't see the debate.

I do expect Weitering to improve of course, but lynch is the best young key forward in the game...he had a bit of a form slump this year but he still dominated in a crap gold coast team for years.

Especially if Weitering stays down back, lynch as a key forward is far more valuable to us right now than another key defender.

Looking objectively at the deal it's a clear win for us and I think those suggesting otherwise are letting their love for Weiters cloud their judgement.

Im not comparing them because its not about just those 2 . Lynch would be fantastic but that also means if we got him weve wasted a high pick on Mckay and those 2 i doubt can play in the same team . That said we dont know yet how Mckay will turn out so when Lynch is available as a FA we will have a clearer idea of where we are at .

 

[Robertio]

Say WHAT!

I think he new he would get a few bites. If not I'll be ------. i

 

[Arr0w]

Not for me. Not even close. It would send real mixed messages about what Bolton and the club were doing and I reckon cause problems internally. Same theory with trading Murphy. You just don't do it. Culture means a lot and ours at the moment is very good.

Big key forwards are hugley overrated in modern football. Have a great defence that works together and importantly a winning midfield with good ball use that works both ways and you will be a top 4 side. Look at the last 5-6 flags. How many had dominate tall forwards and how did they do in finals?

I'm very comfortable what McKay Kerr Silvagni Charlie can bring once we get class and depth in our midfield. We also have tremendous flexibility with Marchbank Weitering Jones Rowe Macreadie which is another huge advantage in today's game.

Overrated ?

2012 Pyke, Roberts-Thomson, Reid, Goodes
2013 Roughead, Franklin, Hale
2014 Roughead, Hale, Gunston
2015 Roughead, Schoenmakers, Gunston
2016 Boyd

At least 2 big KPF in all those premiership sides, apart from last year

 

[Cripps17]

Big key forwards are hugley overrated in modern football. Have a great defence that works together and importantly a winning midfield with good ball use that works both ways and you will be a top 4 side. Look at the last 5-6 flags. How many had dominate tall forwards and how did they do in finals?

Not advocating to trade Weitering, and not going to look at it in depth but Boyd was a key factor for the Dogs winning it last year.

Then you've had Franklin and Roughead playing the majority of the GFs for the last 20 years and being key reasons. Crows and GWS have the best current Key Forwards and sit 1st and 2nd etc. etc.

 

[Soapy V]

Overrated ?

2012 Pyke, Roberts-Thomson, Reid, Goodes
2013 Roughead, Franklin, Hale
2014 Roughead, Hale, Gunston
2015 Roughead, Schoenmakers, Gunston
2016 Boyd

At least 2 big KPF in all those premiership sides, apart from last year

Arrow they aren't exactly stars or kicked bags. Franklin kicked 2 goals in 3 finals and Clarkson wasn't exactly unhappy for him to leave.
Roughead plays more as a tall midfielder that pushes forward.
Hawks leading goalkicker has been Gunston and he isn't what I would call a KPP. He's a mobile player that plays the structure very well and is a good finisher
Hale was a ruck as was Boyd.

None of them kicked bags and the betetr players like Goodes or Roughie played further up the ground. There wins were still built on tight well drilled defences and gun midfields. IMO that needs to be our focus

 

[Soapy V]

Not advocating to trade Weitering, and not going to look at it in depth but Boyd was a key factor for the Dogs winning it last year.

In the ruck, yes. I am not saying you don't need a key forward, you do especially for structure but trading Weitering for Lynch for be a massive loss. JMO

 

[ShanDog]

Arrow they aren't exactly stars or kicked bags. Franklin kicked 2 goals in 3 finals and Clarkson wasn't exactly unhappy for him to leave.
Roughead plays more as a tall midfielder that pushes forward.
Hawks leading goalkicker has been Gunston and he isn't what I would call a KPP. He's a mobile player that plays the structure very well and is a good finisher
Hale was a ruck as was Boyd.

None of them kicked bags and the betetr players like Goodes or Roughie played further up the ground. There wins were still built on tight well drilled defences and gun midfields. IMO that needs to be our focus

You've sort of shot your own argument in the foot there - the key thing as you mentioned is the structure. The number of key forwards etc depends on the play style to a large degree.

 

[Soapy V]

You've sort of shot your own argument in the foot there - the key thing as you mentioned is the structure. The number of key forwards etc depends on the play style to a large degree.

Not really. Just don't need a big gun. Bottom line is I think Weitering for Lynch would be a major mistake for so many reasons.

 

[ShanDog]

Not really. Just don't need a big gun. Bottom line is I think Weitering for Lynch would be a major mistake for so many reasons.

GWS will have two genuine KPFs playing in the GF this year I reckon.

 

[Iamcarlton]

Not sure why this is even a subject tbh , the club used pick 1 on Weitering . And if you ask yourself is this something the club and SoS would do then i think the answer would be a resounding no ....

 

[zeeCFC]

We need better quality mids who can hurt teams from stoppages and turnover. At the moment we work way too hard for our goals and rarely give our forwards one on ones or over the back type goals.

Comes with the style of game we play but a small thing like quicker hands or getting out of a tackle is what we need. Murphy is our highest quality midfielder and he's probably weakest in those areas.

Kelly to me would be the best investment, he's smart in tight, runs hard and kicks goals. I'd also like Hopper as a tough accumulator because I really rate Ed Curnow and realise he won't be around forever. But with Hopper, you can sort of find a cheaper and similarly effectual player through the draft.

Should SOS pull off a miracle and get both while keeping Gibbs, I'd have Murphy playing a Dev Smith type role all year. As good as LeBois was in preseason and Matty Wright is consistently brilliant, they're no longer my long term small forward solutions.

Still a heap to improve on.

 

[Arr0w]

Arrow they aren't exactly stars or kicked bags. Franklin kicked 2 goals in 3 finals and Clarkson wasn't exactly unhappy for him to leave.
Roughead plays more as a tall midfielder that pushes forward.
Hawks leading goalkicker has been Gunston and he isn't what I would call a KPP. He's a mobile player that plays the structure very well and is a good finisher
Hale was a ruck as was Boyd.

None of them kicked bags and the betetr players like Goodes or Roughie played further up the ground. There wins were still built on tight well drilled defences and gun midfields. IMO that needs to be our focus

Don't have to be guns Soapy, just need to be able to compete, occasional mark and goal, or bring the ball to ground. I wonder what the Dockers may have been able to achieve if the had more than just Pavlich in that forward line around the 2013 season.

It is all about balance. Dogs got away with one last year, played their best footy in the last 4 weeks of the year (that bye was very handy). Now the Tigers think they can emulate that with having only Riewoldt forward, which won't work due to being middle of the road in contested possessions and 15th in clearances.

Get a spine, have enough depth in the middle to allow midfield like players, on HF & HB flanks and you have a side that will compete for multiple flags

 

[Soapy V]

Don't have to be guns Soapy, just need to be able to compete, occasional mark and goal, or bring the ball to ground. I wonder what the Dockers may have been able to achieve if the had more than just Pavlich in that forward line around the 2013 season.

It is all about balance. Dogs got away with one last year, played their best footy in the last 4 weeks of the year (that bye was very handy). Now the Tigers think they can emulate that with having only Riewoldt forward, which won't work due to being middle of the road in contested possessions and 15th in clearances.

Get a spine, have enough depth in the middle to allow midfield like players, on HF & HB flanks and you have a side that will compete for multiple flags

I agree with that. Probably more my wording in regards to giving up a Weitering for a Lynch. You don't need a "STAR" key forward to win a flag. I still believe we can do very well with just adding to our midfield. That will make a massive difference to our goalkicking ability

 

[Soapy V]

GWS will have two genuine KPFs playing in the GF this year I reckon.

They are an anomaly. Their midfield is incredible as well

 

[Iamcarlton]

They are an anomaly. Their midfield is incredible as well

Having a gazillion first round picks could have something to do with that as well Soapy

 

[Jimmae]

Cmon mate youre blinded.

Lol lynch for Weitering would be a no brainer.

Sure, just not the kind of no brainer you're thinking of.

I think it's a clear win and can't see the debate.

I do expect Weitering to improve of course, but lynch is the best young key forward in the game...he had a bit of a form slump this year but he still dominated in a crap gold coast team for years.

Especially if Weitering stays down back, lynch as a key forward is far more valuable to us right now than another key defender.

Looking objectively at the deal it's a clear win for us and I think those suggesting otherwise are letting their love for Weiters cloud their judgement.

Looking at it objectively, it's important to try and capture the impact an individual's mindset and psyche can have on his team mates on and off the field.

Both are leaders on and off the field at their footy clubs, but despite having Ablett playing general in the midfield, how many times can you say Lynch has willed himself and others to get Gold Coast over the line? Once? Twice?

Can the same be said for Weitering? Numerous times. He's been a huge part of this reset from the day he stepped into the club, so much so it seems you've become entirely complacent of his output that you're comparing him to a guy who'll be 25 in October.

I compare Lynch somewhat to Jeremy Cameron: you'd love to have either one in your team, but when you look carefully at performances when the chips are down, these guys might kick goals regardless of the circumstances, but guys like Patton, Kelly, Shaw, Tomlinson, Mumford and Scully lead the whole group out of the mess.

You'll probably turn your nose up at midfielder finishers and outside guys, but for all their speed, acrobatics and grabs these guys are just the key forward equivalent. Useful, but they don't grind out the result like Brown, Riewoldt (as much as I think he would have been a better KPD), Sticks, etc.

Because at the end of the day, it's not about how many goals you kick, it's about how many your team kicks compared to the opposition. If you're serious about leading a football club, the latter has to be your priority, even as a full-forward.

 

[Arr0w]

I agree with that. Probably more my wording in regards to giving up a Weitering for a Lynch. You don't need a "STAR" key forward to win a flag. I still believe we can do very well with just adding to our midfield. That will make a massive difference to our goalkicking ability

Agreed, as long as we have KPF's too, all about balance

 

[gandaal]

Our problem isn't that we lack KPPs dangerous enough to kick a bag, but that we lack players of any sort who are capable of kicking a bag.

Opposition teams don't have to worry too much about our forwards because they know they aren't likely to kick more than 2 goals in a game.

We need match winners forward of the ball regardless of whether they're 200cm or not.

My personal opinion is that the current obsession with 196cm+ forwards has been one of those failed recruiting fads we seem to cycle through every so often. Sure they're big, but like rucks most are useless when the ball hits the ground and struggle to apply defensive pressure. 190-195cm forwards usually end up being far more effective.

 

[ShanDog]

They are an anomaly. Their midfield is incredible as well

I agree, but the fact they choose to play two genuine KPFs (plus guys like Lobbe who almost could be too) says something - it's horses for courses.

 

[gandaal]

I agree, but the fact they choose to play two genuine KPFs (plus guys like Lobbe who almost could be too) says something - it's horses for courses.

I think it says they've got a freak in Cameron who, despite being 196cm, is amazing at ground level.

 

[ShanDog]

I think it says they've got a freak in Cameron who, despite being 196cm, is amazing at ground level.

He is brilliant all-round, that's definitely true.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Sure, just not the kind of no brainer you're thinking of.


Looking at it objectively, it's important to try and capture the impact an individual's mindset and psyche can have on his team mates on and off the field.

Both are leaders on and off the field at their footy clubs, but despite having Ablett playing general in the midfield, how many times can you say Lynch has willed himself and others to get Gold Coast over the line? Once? Twice?

Can the same be said for Weitering? Numerous times. He's been a huge part of this reset from the day he stepped into the club, so much so it seems you've become entirely complacent of his output that you're comparing him to a guy who'll be 25 in October.

I compare Lynch somewhat to Jeremy Cameron: you'd love to have either one in your team, but when you look carefully at performances when the chips are down, these guys might kick goals regardless of the circumstances, but guys like Patton, Kelly, Shaw, Tomlinson, Mumford and Scully lead the whole group out of the mess.

You'll probably turn your nose up at midfielder finishers and outside guys, but for all their speed, acrobatics and grabs these guys are just the key forward equivalent. Useful, but they don't grind out the result like Brown, Riewoldt (as much as I think he would have been a better KPD), Sticks, etc.

Because at the end of the day, it's not about how many goals you kick, it's about how many your team kicks compared to the opposition. If you're serious about leading a football club, the latter has to be your priority, even as a full-forward.

Hey man I actually rate weitering really highly. On talent for sure is comparable and arguably best of the 3.

More the point is that Weitering is a potentially elite backman/swingman. This is a position where we have many good players.

Whereas Lynch is an elite forwad. A position where we have no one elite (yet).

Talent = Same/Comparable. Need = Lynch.

 

[HARKER]

We're really not too far away from having the dots in their right place.
A couple of quality mids makes us immediately better from the get-go, next year.

Normally, I wouldn't hold out too much hope for recent draftees to be plugging gaps in year 2 & 3, but it's hard to see the likes of CCurnow, Weitering, JSilvagni, Cuningham, Petrevski-Seton, Macreadie, Fisher & Williamson, going backwards.
McKay & Polson have also show good signs albeit not quite at the level of the guys already mentioned...........yet.

It's sort of funny that we're third last on the ladder, because we're certainly not playing in that way.