Analysis 2017 List Management Discussion

[Soapy V]

Wheres the positivity gone ?

Still the best bunch of kids I have seen and I have high hopes but it will take time. Doesn't mean we are done

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

What was wrong with this statement Coona made ? We are seeing with our own eyes that even with a very shallow but very promising midfield that we may just be 2 to 3 additions in there as well as natural improvement away from being a far better side and competing with the best within 2 years .
If we were so many players away from being able to compete with most sides especially in the midfield we would still be a basket case such as brisbane and copping regular thumpings . We have made bigger strides than i think even we are able to comprehend . Fwiw and thats not much i completely agree with Coona Blues whole assessment . We only have to look at the talent that is still developing in the reserves at present . Sos and bolts are doing a seriously good job with our club . What an exciting ride we are about to experience going forward .

IMO we are more than just a handful of players away from seriously contending, that's what I found wrong with the statement. There are, IMO of course, at least 8 - 10 of our current best 22 who either wont be there or are peripheral best 22 players by the time we are seriously contending, and that's before even taking a look at our current depth players in the VFL. I often see people posting future teams for 2018/ 2019 and onwards stacking them with players we have drafted over the last two season basing their posted teams on the assumption that they will all make it and be best 22. That's highly unlikely to be the case. IMO, we are still at least 20+ list changes and more away from being serious contenders rather than the handful Coona suggested.

 

[Iamcarlton]

IMO we are more than just a handful of players away from seriously contending, that's what I found wrong with the statement. There are, IMO of course, at least 8 - 10 of our current best 22 who either wont be there or are peripheral best 22 players by the time we are seriously contending, and that's before even taking a look at our current depth players in the VFL. I often see people posting future teams for 2018/ 2019 and onwards stacking them with players we have drafted over the last two season basing their posted teams on the assumption that they will all make it and be best 22. That's highly unlikely to be the case. IMO, we are still at least 20+ list changes and more away from being serious contenders rather than the handful Coona suggested.

Um in case you havent noticed weve replaced our previous recruiting managers Hughes/Rogers with Stephen Silvagni
Im sure your bullish on most of our last 2 draft period players that dont include the likes of Plowman Marchbank and Pickett . I feel that 20 + list changes away from virtually settling the structure for a sustained period of high performance is severely under rating the work that Sos has done over the past 2 trade and draft periods . Of which i feel he has turned a rebuild from potentially 5 years back to 3 even 2 . Simply because the 66 game rebuild we stated we have embarked on was severely under rating how long it may take to build the side we want . But by golly Sos is getting there quick . Not in terms of actual wins but the team he wants to put in place to enable the wins to flow .

 

[BrisbaneCFC]

Um in case you havent noticed weve replaced our previous recruiting managers Hughes/Rogers with Stephen Silvagni
Im sure your bullish on most of our last 2 draft period players that dont include the likes of Plowman Marchbank and Pickett . I feel that 20 + list changes away from virtually settling the structure for a sustained period of high performance is severely under rating the work that Sos has done over the past 2 trade and draft periods . Of which i feel he has turned a rebuild from potentially 5 years back to 3 even 2 . Simply because the 66 game rebuild we stated we have embarked on was severely under rating how long it may take to build the side we want . But by golly Sos is getting there quick . Not in terms of actual wins but the team he wants to put in place to enable the wins to flow .

Who our list manager is isn't really a factor as we are IMO, still that 20+ list changes away from being serious contenders. As I stated earlier, people are assuming that everyone that SOS has brought in over the last two trade periods is a certainty to make it. That's highly unlikely to be the case. I expect that in two or three seasons time, we will be talking about some of SOS's recruits in the same vein as we are currently talking about KJ, Buckley etc as being certainties to be delisted. IMO anyone expecting a shortened rebuild is going to be disappointed. We wont be serious contenders until 2020 at the earliest IMO.

 

[Iamcarlton]

Who our list manager is isn't really a factor as we are IMO, still that 20+ list changes away from being serious contenders. As I stated earlier, people are assuming that everyone that SOS has brought in over the last two trade periods is a certainty to make it. That's highly unlikely to be the case. I expect that in two or three seasons time, we will be talking about some of SOS's recruits in the same vein as we are currently talking about KJ, Buckley etc as being certainties to be delisted. IMO anyone expecting a shortened rebuild is going to be disappointed. We wont be serious contenders until 2020 at the earliest IMO.

Yep going by statistics regarding recruiting you are right but having said that premiership sides or the structure of premiership sides can and have been built in a short time or over as little as 2 or 3 trade and draft periods re Geelong with Chapman Johnson Enright etc . a wonderful period of recruiting for them at that time . Similar Hawthorn can this not be our turn to get most right in a short period of time which is against the grain regarding the success rate of draftees and sets us up for a good chance of sustained success ??

 

[RudyBlue]

They're capable of contributing for the next 5 years if they keep doing what they've done over the least 18 months.

Yep, look at Montagna and Riewoldt. Boyd, Morris and Murphy a similar story at the Dogs.

This common idea that Murph, Gibbs and Kreuzer (body does need managing) are absolutely no chance of playing in a premiership with us is silly. So many guys performing well into their 30s these days.

 

[Malifice]

We have renewed interest in Schache

Mental note to self. Watch more Brisbane games to see if hes any good.

I don't care how we do it, but we need a 60 goal a year Key power forward. Preferably two. Crash packs, clunk marks, kick goals.

I was thinking the plan was to simply to throw $1 trillion at Jeremy Cameron in 2 years time.

 

[Funk]

What you have outlined is a scenario I have mulled over many times in the past.

I cannot see Schache being given $700K when he was picked up at #2 behind Weitering at #1 who is way in front of him on performance. It wouldn't surprise me if he was enticed over on a staggered contract with the main carrot being a serious chance to play finals and win premierships in the not too distant future.

He cannot be paid more than what Weitering is currently being paid, it would be far too disruptive to the overall camaraderie & harmony being developed amongst the playing group.

Maybe Schache sees a heap of guys his age playing great football in a well coached team that is on the "up" and says - "FMD I'd love to be part of that. I could see us doing serious damage in a few years time!"

$ become a little less important then.

 

[Cliffords Blues]

IMO we are more than just a handful of players away from seriously contending, that's what I found wrong with the statement. There are, IMO of course, at least 8 - 10 of our current best 22 who either wont be there or are peripheral best 22 players by the time we are seriously contending, and that's before even taking a look at our current depth players in the VFL. I often see people posting future teams for 2018/ 2019 and onwards stacking them with players we have drafted over the last two season basing their posted teams on the assumption that they will all make it and be best 22. That's highly unlikely to be the case. IMO, we are still at least 20+ list changes and more away from being serious contenders rather than the handful Coona suggested.

This just goes to highlight just how bad we have been over the last 20 years.
Coaches, Administrators, recruiters and the board in this time should all hang their heads in shame.
Bolts and SOS, along with the blessing of the administrators, have shown in just 2 YEARS what you can do when you cut deadwood and recruit highly talented (not yet proven) kids.
Having actual foresight and a plan leading into drafts and not just dart board picking
I, like many on here hold our breath with anticipation as to what will come in the next few years.
Everything looks so much brighter, even in our losses, where we can see the kids growing confidence, while the older heads lead the way.
So proud of this 'NEW Carlton Football Club'.
Peace

 

[Funk]

Schache form has been terrible lately. His price would be going down as we speak.

Is he working in a car wash during the week?

 

[ferrisb]

Maybe Schache sees a heap of guys his age playing great football in a well coached team that is on the "up" and says - "FMD I'd love to be part of that. I could see us doing serious damage in a few years time!"

$ become a little less important then.

Even if a footballer thinks like that, his manager would ensure he squeezes out every last dollar any way.

 

[Cliffords Blues]

Even if a footballer thinks like that, his manager would ensure he squeezes out every last dollar any way.

Very true.
But you could see SOS saying 'Do you want to play here or not?' 'Yes, here the contract at $X, if not don't waste my time'
LIKE A BOSS

 

[Malifice]

I'd guess our first and Adelaides (if we trade Gibbs for it) at a start.

Adelaide's first and our future first.

With the hope that Ben Silvagni comes on next year and we can simply match a bid for him in the first round with a couple of later picks.

I wouldn't be surprised if we don't start using Harry McKay as a Ruckman in the VFL. Preparation for next year should Kruezer leave.

Feasibly this year we could get an end of first round pick for Matty Kruezer as free agency compensation should his form continue and he leave, and a first and a second round pick from Adelaide for Gibbs and a later pick. In addition to a ton of salary cap space, that would leave us with picks 5, 17, 20, 35 to play with in addition to next year's first rounder.

If Kruezer keeps having the year he's having he may very well attract a massive offer at the end of the year. It might even be enough for band one compo.

 

[Funk]

You would have thought after the go home 5, they would have changed up there strategy, was staggering the return they got on those 5 players.
They really can't win with pick 1, if they take the highest rated Vic kid, the quicker he comes on, the hard the Vic clubs will come for him.

Then it might be smarter to trade Pick 1 and multiply it into picks that will stay - also spreads the risk.

 

[Funk]

Previously, the thought of getting someone like Schache would fill me with dread and I would toss and turn at night, mumbling things like "mismanagement... incompetent list manager... killing the club... whyyyy", but I now have confidence that SOS and co will have a plan. If Schache can be got and the plan stays on track, it will be all good.

The example I can give you to support this is the trading of late picks last year. Everyone in the footballing world said "WTF?", but early indications are that SOS believed some real talent would be found later in the national draft and took advantage of the situation. We went in with more picks and got the likes of Macreadie, Williamson and Kerr. Method to madness.

And the previous year we did the opposite!!

 

[gandaal]

Harry McKay isn't a ruckman. It would be a waste of time and would stall his development for us to even try making him one.

 

[gandaal]

And the previous year we did the opposite!!

The 2015 draft was heavily front ended. Elite at the top but lacking depth.

The 2016 draft had heaps of depth but was fairly even.

It was very smart trading from SOS and the Carlton list management crew.

 

[Malifice]

Harry McKay isn't a ruckman. It would be a waste of time and would stall his development for us to even try making him one.

Tell that to Levi. Or Tom Boyd.

Bolton is red hot on players being able to play multiple positions. Other than key forward where else we gonna play him? Particularly if Kruezer leaves, we are going to need someone who can pinch hit in the ruck.

 

[gandaal]

Tell that to Levi. Or Tom Boyd.

Bolton is red hot on players being able to play multiple positions. Other than key forward where else we gonna play him? Particularly if Kruezer leaves, we are going to need someone who can pinch hit in the ruck.

Probably, but he's a rubbish ruckman.

 

[ShanDog]

And the previous year we did the opposite!!

Yep, exactly. Just loading up on as many high picks as you can isn't going to cut it these days. You have to make informed decisions and strategise to make a plan, then stick to it. It's what will separate the better recruiting departments from the rest.

 

[Funk]

Yep, exactly. Just loading up on as many high picks as you can isn't going to cut it these days. You have to make informed decisions and strategise to make a plan, then stick to it. It's what will separate the better recruiting departments from the rest.

Will be very interesting to see what the "expert consensus" is this year and what strategy SOS employs.

 

[ParapMarkets]

IMO we are more than just a handful of players away from seriously contending, that's what I found wrong with the statement. There are, IMO of course, at least 8 - 10 of our current best 22 who either wont be there or are peripheral best 22 players by the time we are seriously contending, and that's before even taking a look at our current depth players in the VFL. I often see people posting future teams for 2018/ 2019 and onwards stacking them with players we have drafted over the last two season basing their posted teams on the assumption that they will all make it and be best 22. That's highly unlikely to be the case. IMO, we are still at least 20+ list changes and more away from being serious contenders rather than the handful Coona suggested.

I don't think it is necessarily wrong to suggest we are a handful of players away from being contenders, I think people generally overstate how strong contending lists are from spots 24-44 (or even 16-44). It's amazing what can happen when you have a good strong leadership core, mediocre players can be given roles and shine.


By the time we are contenders, I agree there will be many list changes but I believe a lot of those will not be important to get to where we want, merely representing an ongoing pursuit to find young gun players (which quite often won't be successful - exchanging list fillers with other guys who won't make it). I believe we are well on our way to establishing a great young leadership group. We have a way to go sure (especially in the midfield), but SOS is shaping the list very nicely indeed.

 

[BigFrizz36]

Will be very interesting to see what the "expert consensus" is this year and what strategy SOS employs.

The early reports are top end is good but not great. Lots of key positions and not as many midfielders as usual at the top end. Nowhere near last years depth. Could well change a lot by the end of year with championships etc.

 

[ParapMarkets]

I don't really like this Scache talk. We would have to give up a lot for him, I'd rather see our young KPP's develop a bit more before spending up big to get another one (whilst neglecting our midfield).

 

[Sector 7G]

Harry McKay isn't a ruckman. It would be a waste of time and would stall his development for us to even try making him one.

Fair chance with those skinny legs we would break him putting him in the ruck. Something to try in 3 years time.