2017 Non Crows AFL Discussion Thread

[Ramify]

That, to me, is one of the biggest smoking guns.
Maybe Doc Reid could have / should have done more, but the fact is, he did do something and Hird moved to shut him down / sideline him.
Whatever else is said about the events and Hird's knowledge / culpability etc, that, to me, is a killer.

Add to that Hirds direct sourcing of certain compounds for personal use,the SMS/phone conversations between Himself and Dank, the Gold Coast meetings, the attendance of conferences held by the manufacturer and the list gos on and on.

Are we really to believe he didn't have any knowledge of the waivers and the off-site injecting room?
That knowledge alone should be enough for a head coach with any ounce of moral fibre to step in and put his foot down.


Paints a picture of him knowing full well and keeping his finger on the pulse I'd say.

 

[GreyCrow]

No I don't but I am not saying that We charge and sentence them thru the Authorised courts then when their time has been served they are released. What we don't do is drive them to an overdose.

Sometimes we do.

We see this regularly how our youth are being hounded in such a way as they feel they have no other options. yet we sit back and condone what is happening to Hird. why

Because he is an adult and one who we think has more life experiences, especially with all the negativity he would have received as a footballer, to be able to make his own choices.

Don't care if he deserves a harsher penalty, Don't care who he coached or supported. But one thing He did not do anything that deserved pushing him to OD.
And one thing I can tell you I have seen the results of some that do deserve it. He does not.

Doesn't this conflict with your opening statement?

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Are we really to believe he didn't have any knowledge of the waivers and the off-site injecting room?
That knowledge alone should be enough for a head coach with any ounce of moral fibre to step in and put his foot down.
.

And on this point BOOM BOOM ......you're gone Hird!!

 

[Corvus]

Listen to the audio interview with Hirds father

So am i right in reading/thinking he still hasn't seen James a week after the OD?

My family would be the same. Special type of dsyfunction there.

 

[beartoo]

Your analysis of the situation is absolutely spot on ......been NO TALK about Hird at all in the press or in the media, bar the outrage over potentially joinng radio SEN1116

EDIT

Sorry, the only thing that is worth mentioning, that would be a factor, but not contributing to an OD anymore than what has been present the last 3 years ...and that's the media camped outside his house, although i won't accept that it's a 7 day a week steakout

Hold the chips!

 

[WaynesWorld19]

So am i right in reading/thinking he still hasn't seen James a week after the OD?

My family would be the same. Special type of dsyfunction there.

Correct .....and still absent as of today

 

[WaynesWorld19]

The death of a senior AFL club official would normally have featured heavily in the media and the AFL website .......unless of course it's not in the AFL / Clubs best interest

Hawthorn Football Club team manager took his own life as police prepared to charge him with sexually abusing his own son

Ric Sprake, 66, was found dead in a Doncaster East hotel room in Melbourne on Saturday. The long-time Hawks employee was arrested by sexual crimes detectives in December last year.

 

[Pdub]

The death of a senior AFL club official would normally have featured heavily in the media and the AFL website .......unless of course it's not in the AFL / Clubs best interest

Hawthorn Football Club team manager took his own life as police prepared to charge him with sexually abusing his own son

Ric Sprake, 66, was found dead in a Doncaster East hotel room in Melbourne on Saturday. The long-time Hawks employee was arrested by sexual crimes detectives in December last year.

Wow, what a piece of shit.

 

[1970crow]

That, to me, is one of the biggest smoking guns.
Maybe Doc Reid could have / should have done more, but the fact is, he did do something and Hird moved to shut him down / sideline him.
Whatever else is said about the events and Hird's knowledge / culpability etc, that, to me, is a killer.

True, but it also suggests that Hird was not omnipotent and couldn't overule Reid. He needed the Football Manager to get involved and negotiate with Reid to get the program going again.

 

[Vader]

Add to that Hirds direct sourcing of certain compounds for personal use,the SMS/phone conversations between Himself and Dank, the Gold Coast meetings, the attendance of conferences held by the manufacturer and the list gos on and on.

Are we really to believe he didn't have any knowledge of the waivers and the off-site injecting room?
That knowledge alone should be enough for a head coach with any ounce of moral fibre to step in and put his foot down.


Paints a picture of him knowing full well and keeping his finger on the pulse I'd say.

There's a difference between believing, and being able to prove it to the level required in a court of law - even with the CAS having a level of proof below "beyond a reasonable doubt".

I, like you, believe that he's as guilty as sin. But ASADA never charged him because they didn't have the evidence required to meet the burden of proof.

 

[1970crow]

There's a difference between believing, and being able to prove it to the level required in a court of law - even with the CAS having a level of proof below "beyond a reasonable doubt".

I, like you, believe that he's as guilty as sin. But ASADA never charged him because they didn't have the evidence required to meet the burden of proof.

Despite using his significant influence to get the program up and running, I'm not sure that he was ever technically responsible for that area. He has perfect deniability, firstly, he's on record as saying that everything needs to be WADA compliant and secondly, Sports Science didn't report through him. Not saying he didn't wield influence.

 

[PrideOf]

I, like you, believe that he's as guilty as sin. But ASADA never charged him because they didn't have the evidence required to meet the burden of proof.

Which the Essendon faithful and outright nuffies like Cornes or Newman means he must be 100% innocent and the target of a conspiracy. It boggles the mind.

 

[adelaidecrows]

Despite using his significant influence to get the program up and running, I'm not sure that he was ever technically responsible for that area. He has perfect deniability, firstly, he's on record as saying that everything needs to be WADA compliant and secondly, Sports Science didn't report through him. Not saying he didn't wield influence.

My thoughts around this line of argument is; If you were going to create such an elaborate doping operation under the nose of the AFL and hidden from the club, two things come to mind. He is on record of stating WADA compliance but Dank is an employee of the club, doesn't stand to reason that in oreder to justify Dank at board meetings he would have had to have shown a program and what has been asked for. So to me this doesn't really stand up. The missing drugs and the players having to go off site to receive injections is the real suspicious part and Hird knew everything about it but the club knew nothing. To me he is as guilty as they come. Dank wouldn't have just done what he wanted. He would have had to have been pushed. Hird has acted like a guilty man with everything to hide from day one and that is because he is a guilty man. The people who think he is innocent really have provided not one single piece of logical argument other than their opinion and ASADA and journalists and the AFL were out to get Hird. Which is the stupidest argument they could make but its the only one they had to stand on.

 

[1970crow]

My thoughts around this line of argument is; If you were going to create such an elaborate doping operation under the nose of the AFL and hidden from the club, two things come to mind. He is on record of stating WADA compliance but Dank is an employee of the club, doesn't stand to reason that in oreder to justify Dank at board meetings he would have had to have shown a program and what has been asked for. So to me this doesn't really stand up. The missing drugs and the players having to go off site to receive injections is the real suspicious part and Hird knew everything about it but the club knew nothing. To me he is as guilty as they come. Dank wouldn't have just done what he wanted. He would have had to have been pushed. Hird has acted like a guilty man with everything to hide from day one and that is because he is a guilty man. The people who think he is innocent really have provided not one single piece of logical argument other than their opinion and ASADA and journalists and the AFL were out to get Hird. Which is the stupidest argument they could make but its the only one they had to stand on.

I doubt the club knew nothing. The Sports Science dept reported to the Head of Football, not Hird. I'm not saying he's not guilty, but it's near impossible to isolate him as the person responsible when he technically isn't responsible. I think this is why ASADA never bothered to go after him, but the AFL could under disrepute or whatever.

 

[Sanders]

No, it's called common decency.

There is nothing common or decent about it.

 

[ad victoriam]

Sometimes we do.
Because he is an adult and one who we think has more life experiences, especially with all the negativity he would have received as a footballer, to be able to make his own choices.
Doesn't this conflict with your opening statement?

No contradiction, First I said the AFL should have been harder on him and others at the start. but they were weak.
Second bit I was talking about here and now, The perceived actions and the pressure he felt he was getting to that lead him to OD (and to make other happy I use the word perceived)

 

[NikkiNoo]

There's a difference between believing, and being able to prove it to the level required in a court of law - even with the CAS having a level of proof below "beyond a reasonable doubt".

I, like you, believe that he's as guilty as sin. But ASADA never charged him because they didn't have the evidence required to meet the burden of proof.

ASADA never charged him because at that time they were not able to bring charges against coaches etc. It was always only about charging the athlete and the doctor that administered the drugs. Hence why only the players and Dank. The new WADA code now is able to go after coaches etc.

 

[jenny61_99]

There is nothing common or decent about it.

Actually you are right about it not being common. It is a rarity to see a government organisation thinking about all of it's people and not just one group. As for it not being decent? Well, I guess that says a whole lot about you, doesn't it?

 

[DD#23]

Actually you are right about it not being common. It is a rarity to see a government organisation thinking about all of it's people and not just one group. As for it not being decent? Well, I guess that says a whole lot about you, doesn't it?

this is kind of an inherent flaw in democracy though right?

 

[jenny61_99]

My thoughts around this line of argument is; If you were going to create such an elaborate doping operation under the nose of the AFL and hidden from the club, two things come to mind. He is on record of stating WADA compliance but Dank is an employee of the club, doesn't stand to reason that in oreder to justify Dank at board meetings he would have had to have shown a program and what has been asked for. So to me this doesn't really stand up. The missing drugs and the players having to go off site to receive injections is the real suspicious part and Hird knew everything about it but the club knew nothing. To me he is as guilty as they come. Dank wouldn't have just done what he wanted. He would have had to have been pushed. Hird has acted like a guilty man with everything to hide from day one and that is because he is a guilty man. The people who think he is innocent really have provided not one single piece of logical argument other than their opinion and ASADA and journalists and the AFL were out to get Hird. Which is the stupidest argument they could make but its the only one they had to stand on.

I am pretty sure Dank did what he wanted. There were no checks and balances in place. Dank came undone because of an invoice from the hyperbaric clinic where the players had received treatments and also been injected with "amino acids" worth $10,000. A part of that was the drug left behind by a muscular dystrophy patient (the Mexican substance). Firstly, the club thought they were getting the hyperbaric treatments for free, why I don't know. I think the invoice all up was $60,000. They also didn't know about the injections. Strange that the players didn't mention it? But the one piece of information where you can conclude that Dank was a cowboy was the exchange of texts between he and Alavi (the compounding pharmacist) about a new drug they wanted to trial on footballers.

"Also is there a problem with giving them an anaesthetic in the muscle? I have discovered a new polymer which will provide slow release system while repairing damaged cell walls. Intra muscular injection."

Mr Dank responded: "No problems with that all."

Mr Alavi later wrote: "It's amazing and being used in the US for elite horseracing. I can even put the Thymosin and AOD in it."

Mr Dank: "Perfect. Let's get going."

He then sends another text message: "Have we tried it on anyone yet?"

Mr Alavi responds: "A few dental injections for periodontal sockets but not for sporting."

Mr Alavi later says: "Amazing repair properties."

Mr Dank responds: "Well, let's test a couple of players."

Mr Alavi says: "Sounds good, buddy. Speak soon."

Hird had no idea about any of this. And this is why he believes he is "innocent". What he cannot see is the evidence as presented, shows that on Robinson's advice Hird embraced Dank's program, but he did not put in place sufficient safeguards for the players. He knew Dank was, at the very least, using an experimental drug on the players (this to me is the most outrageous and the biggest red flag) but Dank assured him it was compliant thanks to what he thought was a loophole in the WADA code. The thymosin beta 4 had only been added to the prohibited list late in 2011 and Dank had missed it's addition. Once he realised it was banned, he went about trying to cover up it's use. I think Hird is guilty of extreme naivety but this does not absolve him of any responsibility.

 

[MRB37]

 

[Scorpus]

I recall AFL Trade Whisperer being full of shit, unlike some other Twitter accounts active during the trade period

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Would have thought the Hawks would have done a thorough medical.

They have paid out heaps in trade value - more than I would have - so they have taken a gamble on JOM being over the worst of his injury woes.

Hopefully we do get to see the best of him.

 

[Geoffa32]

Would have thought the Hawks would have done a thorough medical.

They have paid out heaps in trade value - more than I would have - so they have taken a gamble on JOM being over the worst of his injury woes.

Hopefully we do get to see the best of him.

Port (and many Tealsters) thought that Shaun Burgoyne's knee was degenerative and his career was pretty much over.

Six seasons later he is now a four time Premiership player and still going strong.

Hawthorn is probably the best club for JOM to be at. In terms of looking after players with injury they are probably the best in the league.

Sent from my HTC_0P6B6 using Tapatalk

 

[jenny61_99]

this is kind of an inherent flaw in democracy though right?

It has certainly become that way.