List Mgmt. 2019 Draft and Trade Thread

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I suggest that you have a look at the drafts around the ones that you mentioned and consider what midfielders we took.

When Ben was drafted (in hindsight a massive blunder, more costly that Paddy or any other draft misses that we've had other that Ball over Judd), we had a midfield chockers with AA's. We also had a couple of old ruck men on their last legs (King & Gardy).

In Paddy's case we'd taken 3 mids (Billings, Dunstan and Acres) the previous year. The following year we took Gresham. That doesn't really fit in with the 'adverse to draft mids' thinking though does it?

Last year we drafted the absolute best available... the year before we drafted one pure mid (Clark) and one who's a genuine mid/utility (Coffield). He played as a mid all through his junior career up until the U18s.

So that's Billings, Dunstan, Acres, Gresham, Clark & Coffield drafted in the top 20 alongside of Paddy & Max... a 3 to 1 ratio of mids to talls.

Dunstan was the only true mid, Blake was a utility and Billings was a half forward who some were worried would never transition to a mid. Clarke and Coffield again both had stints at half back and at least Hunter had some serious exposed midfield time, Coffield was back forward and middle.
 

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StCicatriz

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I suggest that you have a look at the drafts around the ones that you mentioned and consider what midfielders we took.

When Ben was drafted (in hindsight a massive blunder, more costly that Paddy or any other draft misses that we've had other that Ball over Judd), we had a midfield chockers with AA's. We also had a couple of old ruck men on their last legs (King & Gardy).

In Paddy's case we'd taken 3 mids (Billings, Dunstan and Acres) the previous year. The following year we took Gresham. That doesn't really fit in with the 'adverse to draft mids' thinking though does it?

Last year we drafted the absolute best available... the year before we drafted one pure mid (Clark) and one who's a genuine mid/utility (Coffield). He played as a mid all through his junior career up until the U18s.

So that's Billings, Dunstan, Acres, Gresham, Clark & Coffield drafted in the top 20 alongside of Paddy & Max... a 3 to 1 ratio of mids to talls.
i think you are being a bit sneaky here.

acres was a utility, played center at colts level but HBF in the champs. since joining us he's been played mainly as a third tall forward, who can push up around the ground. billings was a HFF at tac cup level and the champs. he has been able to cement a spot on the wing now and looks every bit of an outside mid. dunstan was played in the center as a colt. mix of center and half back flank in the champs. center since joining. gresham was a fwd pocket predominantly.

so really we drafted 1 genuine mid, who hasn't really made it, but found another in billings. with gresham looking likely.

prior to that the other genuine mid was seb ross, who has cemented his spot there.

so we seem to be grabbing blokes in other positions and transferring them into what we think they can be, which is what you should be doing at the draft. i mean not every play can play as a mid. there's only 5 spots in the side for it, maybe some interchange, so naturally in a very gifted side you will have blokes playing other positions.
 

StCicatriz

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Billings was definitely projected to be a midfielder.

I reckon people hold too much weight in what position a kid plays their U18 Champs in... most of the elite kids have spent most of their footy life dominating midfields. When they get to rep footy they sometimes get pushed onto flanks or used at half back because their kicking skills and decision making are so good.

Where they develop once into the AFL system is another part of it. Depending on what senior players are ahead of them, their fitness, injury history, etc.

I'll disagree to the cows come home about Paddy not being the right pick in 2014. If he was rated at #5 or #10 then you'd have a point but he wasn't. He was going at either one or two... Petracca's career isn't tracking to the point that he's a massive miss either. The rest of the top 5 are not worth considering because they were never in the mix. And to be clear, at least 2 other clubs also had Paddy at #1. That comes directly from the mouth of a current head AFL recruiter.
i know of some clubs that didn't have him inside the top 10 for the reasons everyone has noted on here
 

StCicatriz

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The only pick that annoyed me at the time was the McCartin one. All the rest were what we thought were best available.

That's exactly how you should draft in the first round. The only time we didn't was the Paddy one and it back fired.

Picking for needs is what you do with later picks.

I think the way it ended up was that we got a decent mix anyway. Max and Paddy were drafted as key forwards.

Clark and Gresham were taken as mids (Yes I know Gresham played the majority of his first three years at AFL level as a forward but he's not the first to do that)

Coff and Billings were taken as flankers who we'd hope would spend some time as mids.

Then you have Dunstan and Acres who were both late firsts. Dunstan was a pure mid, Acres a mid/flanker
this post x1000

my two biggest WTF moments over the course of the rebuild were:
1) the tom lee trade
2) the mccartin selection

i just didn't understand either, no matter how i flipped it and looked at it from different angles, it just didn't add up. they're just horrible and there's literally no excuse for it. particularly the mccartin. it's just so so so bad it beggars belief as to what the **** was happening within the list committee to produce such a terrible outcome.

the other minor ones were:
3) the TDL trade
4) the future trade with port

one i scratched my head over but didn't spend any time looking into:
5) the future trading last year
 
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this post x1000

my two biggest WTF moments over the course of the rebuild were:
1) the tom lee trade
2) the mccartin selection

i just didn't understand either, no matter how i flipped it and looked at it from different angles, it just didn't add up. they're just horrible and there's literally no excuse for it. particularly the mccartin. it's just so so so bad it beggars belief as to what the **** was happening within the list committee to produce such a terrible outcome.

the other minor ones were:
3) the TDL trade
4) the future trade with port

one i scratched my head over but didn't spend any time looking into:
5) the future trading last year

Ironically the best two players ( if not the only two ) taken at or after Trent Dennis Lane's pick, were Membrey and Kent.
And i sort of think if we didn't do the pick swap for Lee, (white ) we would have picked someone equally crap
 
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Ironically the best two players ( if not the only two ) taken at or after Trent Dennis Lane's pick, were Membrey and Kent.
And i sort of think if we didn't do the pick swap for Lee, (white ) we would have picked someone equally crap

Yeah, getting the Pelican out of the club was the best thing we could have done. He was like Mr Bean, he was a walking disaster. I think the Hickey and Longer trades have probably been just as shit as well. That era wasn't great but we seem to be on track now.
 
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I don't know why but I've always had an irrational dislike of Karl, he's like someone bred Christopher Pine with Jason Ackermanis...well he's taken their levels of annoying and upped it anyway.
I didn't like him when he played , but he is good on the radio , quite measured , not too tabloid like some others.
Surely you meant Christopher Pyne , Politician and not Christopher Pine , Actor and apparent Seahawks man ?
 
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Come end of the year i don't see that we have too many players on our list that aren't AFL standard to make way for the next draft.
Armitage and Rowe at this stage. Possibly Rice.
I'm thinking it would make sense for us to trade a decent young player for an improved draft pick. IE player and pick for a better pick.
Someone like Phillips or McKenzie perhaps.
Top 10 BnF McKenzie (off 13 games)?
 

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VDS66

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Come end of the year i don't see that we have too many players on our list that aren't AFL standard to make way for the next draft.
Armitage and Rowe at this stage. Possibly Rice.
I'm thinking it would make sense for us to trade a decent young player for an improved draft pick. IE player and pick for a better pick.
Someone like Phillips or McKenzie perhaps.
An average player will get you an average pick. If they are worth a good pick, why would you get rid of them for an unknown draftee?

Dmac would get you a 2nd at best. Why swap him for a pick 25 unknown that will take around 2-3 years to establish himself?

Doesn't make sense.
 

StCicatriz

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Yeah, getting the Pelican out of the club was the best thing we could have done. He was like Mr Bean, he was a walking disaster. I think the Hickey and Longer trades have probably been just as shit as well. That era wasn't great but we seem to be on track now.
"there's no ruckman available so we are going to trade for one"

nekt minute.
 
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Dunstan was the only true mid, Blake was a utility and Billings was a half forward who some were worried would never transition to a mid. Clarke and Coffield again both had stints at half back and at least Hunter had some serious exposed midfield time, Coffield was back forward and middle.
There's a massive difference between supporters having worries about whether a player will develop into a certain type & what the club expects and projects internally.

As I posted, all of the players that you mentioned spent the majority of their junior careers predominately as mids.
 
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i think you are being a bit sneaky here.

acres was a utility, played center at colts level but HBF in the champs. since joining us he's been played mainly as a third tall forward, who can push up around the ground. billings was a HFF at tac cup level and the champs. he has been able to cement a spot on the wing now and looks every bit of an outside mid. dunstan was played in the center as a colt. mix of center and half back flank in the champs. center since joining. gresham was a fwd pocket predominantly.

so really we drafted 1 genuine mid, who hasn't really made it, but found another in billings. with gresham looking likely.

prior to that the other genuine mid was seb ross, who has cemented his spot there.

so we seem to be grabbing blokes in other positions and transferring them into what we think they can be, which is what you should be doing at the draft. i mean not every play can play as a mid. there's only 5 spots in the side for it, maybe some interchange, so naturally in a very gifted side you will have blokes playing other positions.
Which is pretty much what I said... kids playing predominately as mids until the champs when they get pushed onto a flank, etc.

So it depends which way you look at it (or which way your cognitive bias runs). Either we're drafting kids & eventually playing them in their natural positions or we're hoping that a kid who's spent a season playing in another role can transition into an area of need.
 
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Yeah, getting the Pelican out of the club was the best thing we could have done. He was like Mr Bean, he was a walking disaster. I think the Hickey and Longer trades have probably been just as shit as well. That era wasn't great but we seem to be on track now.
Funnily enough Pelican has put his head up to criticise our list lately.

Hmmmmm
 
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There's a massive difference between supporters having worries about whether a player will develop into a certain type & what the club expects and projects internally.

As I posted, all of the players that you mentioned spent the majority of their junior careers predominately as mids.

Not so sure about TAC though.
 
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Funnily enough Pelican has put his head up to criticise our list lately.

Hmmmmm

That's like the reverse kiss of death. He seriously has no idea, he was on radio last year saying that Carlton should sell off all their talented players and start again...he actually said that he thought their fans wouldn't mind waiting another 7 years to play finals again because they'd waited this long. I know Carlton supporters that are already wanting to burn the club to the ground because of their inability to compete. They would need to be institutionalised if they were told to wait another 7 years.
 

plugger66

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That's like the reverse kiss of death. He seriously has no idea, he was on radio last year saying that Carlton should sell off all their talented players and start again...he actually said that he thought their fans wouldn't mind waiting another 7 years to play finals again because they'd waited this long. I know Carlton supporters that are already wanting to burn the club to the ground because of their inability to compete. They would need to be institutionalised if they were told to wait another 7 years.
For all the knocking of our recruiting and coaches he is more responsible for most poor things at the club than the rest combined. Dermie certainly got him right. Did he do one good thing?
 
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