List Mgmt. 2019 List Management: Contracts, Trading, Drafting, Academy

[Callums_Guns]

If Cogs was to pull the pin, with 3 1st round draft picks at our disposal.

Would you meet with Tim Kelly / Cats

 

[Giant Pete]

So, in relation to getting in a mature inside mid, I'm just not sure there are too many decent mids in that age bracket that we'd want to pick up. Perhaps Hugh Greenwood is one of a few looking to move from their current team, but I suspect he wants a Victorian side. If we hold onto Cogs, with Ward back from injury and if we take Tom Green in the draft, I'd be relatively satisfied with the guys we've got. Any time we lose established players and then suffer injuries in the same role depth will always be a factor. I'd acknowledge that the group would be on the young side, but as we've seen this year with Taranto & Hopper given opportunity they can shine. (And TBH, I think we need to give guys like Caldwell a decent run in first grade.) And having good youngsters will deter mature mids 'looking for more opportunity' from coming here because they are more likely to be just backup in case of injury or the youngsters not coming on.

I look at the squad in terms of a rule (of thumb) of 7. That is, 7 x KPD/small-med defenders/KPFs/small-medium forwards & 14 mids (plus 4 rucks) as a rough squad composition of 46. Obviously the midfield is a mixture of inside, outside & balanced mids.

Our current squad midfield plus likely 2019 draft looks like :

Ward, Coniglio, Hopper, Taranto, Bonar, Hately, Caldwell, Shipley, de Boer, O'Halloran, Tom Green, Kelly, Whitfield, Tomlinson, Deledio, Sheridan, Perryman (depending on whether you consider him a back or an inside mid or a utility)

So, yes, if you move on a couple of players such as Tommo & Bonar as some would like then there would be room, but I still think they'd look at that squad and think that their opportunities would be somewhat limited by the potential talent there.

If we lose Coniglio then I would certainly agree that getting a mature mid should be greater priority.

Any thoughts of options other than Greenwood?

I mostly agree wit you. I just think another year with injuries to older players will again expose our youth. A more even spread of age is always good.

 

[Giant Pete]

If Cogs was to pull the pin, with 3 1st round draft picks at our disposal.

Would you meet with Tim Kelly / Cats

No because his wife desperately wants to go back to w.a.

 

[dlanod]

I'd meet with him because of course you would, he's fantastic, you still do your due diligence, but we ain't getting him.

 

[Giant Pete]

So, in relation to getting in a mature inside mid, I'm just not sure there are too many decent mids in that age bracket that we'd want to pick up. Perhaps Hugh Greenwood is one of a few looking to move from their current team, but I suspect he wants a Victorian side. If we hold onto Cogs, with Ward back from injury and if we take Tom Green in the draft, I'd be relatively satisfied with the guys we've got. Any time we lose established players and then suffer injuries in the same role depth will always be a factor. I'd acknowledge that the group would be on the young side, but as we've seen this year with Taranto & Hopper given opportunity they can shine. (And TBH, I think we need to give guys like Caldwell a decent run in first grade.) And having good youngsters will deter mature mids 'looking for more opportunity' from coming here because they are more likely to be just backup in case of injury or the youngsters not coming on.

I look at the squad in terms of a rule (of thumb) of 7. That is, 7 x KPD/small-med defenders/KPFs/small-medium forwards & 14 mids (plus 4 rucks) as a rough squad composition of 46. Obviously the midfield is a mixture of inside, outside & balanced mids.

Our current squad midfield plus likely 2019 draft looks like :

Ward, Coniglio, Hopper, Taranto, Bonar, Hately, Caldwell, Shipley, de Boer, O'Halloran, Tom Green, Kelly, Whitfield, Tomlinson, Deledio, Sheridan, Perryman (depending on whether you consider him a back or an inside mid or a utility)

So, yes, if you move on a couple of players such as Tommo & Bonar as some would like then there would be room, but I still think they'd look at that squad and think that their opportunities would be somewhat limited by the potential talent there.

If we lose Coniglio then I would certainly agree that getting a mature mid should be greater priority.

Any thoughts of options other than Greenwood?

Ellis Yolman - 26
Sier - 22

 

[Giant Strides]

I just think another year with injuries to older players will again expose our youth. A more even spread of age is always good.

Yes, I agree with that being a risk - and even more so if we lose Cogs.

Just looking back at the mids we've lost over the years: Setterfield, Kennedy, Ahern, Steele, Shiel, Trelor, Tyson, Adams, Smith.

Obviously we couldn't expect to retain all of our 'star' players, and the earlier group we needed to thin out to avoid a bubble in the one age group. So, probably the biggest loss in my view was Jack Steele - would be 24 next year and complement the group we have. But - I'd opine that if we want to give youth a go (i.e. Taranto, Hopper, Caldwell, O'Halloran, Tom Green) then he'd still be that fringe player that be obviously wanted to move on from (and successfully too since he's pretty much a fixture in Saints' midfield.)

Ellis Yolman - 26
Sier - 22

Sier was one I thought earlier in the year might be pretty useful for us (especially if Cogs leaves) - can't break into the Pies' midfield and looking for opportunity. However, (1) I'd think he'd look at our midfield as being similarly a constraint to him getting games if we give Caldwell, O'Halloran etc a run and (2) his recent shenanigans with training, 'Phil Inn' at basketball, his injuries etc have turned me off.

CEY I'd be willing to give a chance as a cheap backup, but would he move to a third club if he sees limited opportunity?

The other completely left field thought would be - Dom Tyson? Really a pure inside midfielder, went OK at Melbourne immediately after we traded him but they've now got better options available now so sent him to Norths, but they've got enough of those guys too. Again though, he'd know that he's just backup so would it be worth his while?

That's the conundrum, getting someone who's essentially a backup - so we don't want to pay much in either contract $ or trade chips - and they're happy to take that chance. Matt de Boer has been the poster boy for that working out.

 

[Teeso]

Just a brief rundown on some of the OOC players we may have an interest in. Personally dont see us making too many trades but always nice to see whats available.

Ruck: Goldstein, Jacobs, Ryder, Darcy Cameron, Soldo, Ceglar, Pittonet, Nicholls, Zac Smith
Defender: Bailey Williams, Robertson
Midfield: Masten, Zak Jones, Hugh Greenwood
Forward: Shai Bolton, Mcdonald-Tipungwuti

Obviously the focus is on finding a ruck that can cover the likely loss of Mumford/Simpson/Patton and potentially Tommo as well at season's end with Flynn out for at least half of 2020 with the ACL injury. Think Briggs can take first ruck in the NEAFL but in the absence of a true power KPF in the seconds, we dont have too many ruck chopout options i.e. Sproule (197cm, 92kg) and potentially Delahunty (192cm, 90kg). Given our lack of tall options, you'd wonder whether we go for one of Goldstein/Jacobs/Ryder as well as a younger one like Darcy Cameron or Soldo who can rotate with Briggs at full forward in NEAFL to give him a hand. Of course, once Flynn returns, presents a bit of a dilemma with 3 young rucks. However, given our luck with injuries, I'm sure they wont be stuck there for long before they need to be called upon in the best 22.

With regards to defenders, I think we are well stocked for key defenders with Davis, Corr, Taylor, Haynes, Stein, Keefe and Idun. With small defenders, I believe our best ones are those who can be utilized through the middle because of their acceleration and leg speed, as well as (usually) their good decision making. Whitfield, Williams and Kenners are the ones id be looking to put more midfield minutes into to complement our strong but at times one-paced midfield. Their spots in defence may then open up to options such as Bailey Williams or Robertson, especially if they come cheaply. At worst, it gives Whitfield/Z.Williams/Kenners an opportunity to rotate out since Cumming and Bailey Williams can also be damaging by foot. Would also look to develop one of Lachie Ash/Hayden Young if we can creep up the draft order.

In the midfield, I think we are potentially looking at the loss of alot of our running power. If we do trade Tomlinson, Cogs and potentially delist Sheridan (as suggested by AFL.com.au), thats 3 top runners gone. Robertson is apparently a running machine and for the same reason, I wouldnt be opposed to us getting Masten in the seconds especially if he is delisted by the WCE. He is not the best footballer as such, but he could give us some tips on how to best play the WCE and would help guide our young NEAFL mids. Zak Jones would give us a nice point of difference in the midfield, he is quick and zippy but not as damaging by foot. Sort of like a tough but less damaging version of Z. Williams in my opinion. Aside from a ruckman, would be the player I want in GWS colors next year given his leg speed and ability to play both defence/midfield. Should be on a similar wage to Tommo and could use the compo pick we receive in a trade if Jones doesnt want to return to Vic. Greenwood I like, but as a pure inside mid, feel that drafting Tom Green would be sufficient. I'm sure if we need depth in that area given the state of our injuries and how that might affect players in 2020, we could explore this space. Would be my preference over CEY given his run with injuries.

For the forward line, we have good best 22 talent, but our depth is pretty poor. Cant see any changes to our KPF stock with Cameron, HH and Finlayson in the absence of injuries for next year. However beyond that leaves only Sproule and maybe Delahunty if we draft him. Dont see too many key forwards im interested in that are OOC or via the draft this year, so may be something we focus on in the medium term. The only solution for this I can think of is trading for an extra ruck as mentioned above to help fill this role with Briggs. We seem to have a good stock of small forwards with Hill, Daniels, Langdon and Greene. Langdon was great in his first year but would say Daniels has eclipsed him and Hill has a mountain of potential. Bolton is someone else I see as having great potential given his attributes and would give us more X-factor up forward. Dont think AMT will choose GWS, but when you see the things he can do and pressure he applies when switched on, who wouldnt want AMT on their team? Hill (in a couple of years) and AMT would be a nightmare for opposition teams.

 

[Giant Strides]

Ruck: Goldstein, Jacobs, Ryder, Darcy Cameron, Soldo, Ceglar, Pittonet, Nicholls, Zac Smith
Defender: Bailey Williams, Robertson
Midfield: Masten, Zak Jones, Hugh Greenwood
Forward: Shai Bolton, Mcdonald-Tipungwuti

A very nice summary & discussion.

In respect of the midfield, I would be very surprised if Zak Jones left Sydney - given who's retiring from them this year, there should be extra $ to reward him. If he leaves, it will be to go home to Melbourne. But probably the best of the available players if Cogs were to leave. Chris Masten I wouldn't expect to come east, but if WCE did get Tim Kelly and he wanted to go on ... then he'd replace some lost experience for a couple of years.

I do think we need to look at the medium defenders. While Zac Williams & Adam Kennedy are good/solid, we still need to find someone to replace Shaw. Internally I'm not sure that Isaac Cumming can be that man. Also, Tommo looks to be getting less and less effective, so Williams and Robertson looking for opportunities are reasonable (and low cost) considerations. Personally, I think we might need to turn back the clock and put Lachie back there as he did in his AA year. Of course, that costs his current zippy half-forward role, or a more traditional winger role. (We really need to clone him!)

So that might open up an option for some like Shai Bolton (or Dan Butler). I'm not too keen on either of those myself - I'd prefer to see Greene, Langdon, Daniels & Hill play those roles long term - but I understand why others would see them as options. Of course Tippa would be fantastic, but I am sure he'll stay in Melbourne somewhere. (In hindsight, we should have rookied Sydney Stack - wouldn't he and Hill be a fantastic combo.)

Ruck is obviously the biggest issue - I just hope they solve the damn problem this year after not doing so for the last 3 years. I get that blokes don't necessarily want to come to Sydney - and it's the one position we haven't been able to grow our own solution (i.e. from draft or academy - yet) - but we need to be bold to fix a latent deficiency in our setup.

 

[Danny88]

Leaky defence has largely been because of lack of pressure at the source. The last two weeks we have been beaten badly at the source.
I think of people available at the moment, someone like Greenwood from the Crows would be a good addition.

Greenwood would be a brilliant get

His presence as a forward is great too

Much better option

 

[Danny88]

Reading reports we upped our offer to cogs to try and keep him

I really hope that’s not true. If we are offering 1.3 mil I have no idea how we keep Whitfield or Cameron who Imo are more important to the way we go about it

He deserves to be paid no doubt- but the 1 mil mark seems about right to me

 

[Teeso]

Reading reports we upped our offer to cogs to try and keep him

I really hope that’s not true. If we are offering 1.3 mil I have no idea how we keep Whitfield or Cameron who Imo are more important to the way we go about it

He deserves to be paid no doubt- but the 1 mil mark seems about right to me

Surely we would only be matching to force a trade with carlton as it would be way unders to only receive an end of first round compo for cogs.

 

[Brave New World]

The ruck appears me to be our critical area to fix. I think Mummy is cooked and he if goes another year he will be this time next year even more less mobile, not jumping but rather running into people to be competitive.

Although there appears to be a large field of rucks potentially on the move we need a game-winning ruck not just someone holding the forte (sorry Geelong Freudian slip); pending the arrival of Flynn/Briggs. I thought Ceglar showed us up some weeks ago and he appears a good fit in terms of ability, opportunity and experience (including age). The mooted 'swap' with Patton may make this even more appealing in terms of the mechanics.

Another left-field possibility is the return of Andrew Phillips from our 'seconds'. He is 28 years and not getting a regular run in Blue. If it were to happen at least both parties start from a solid knowledge base.

In the mid-field/general run-around void would Stephen Hill from Fremantle be worth pursuing? Out of contract, out of a brother to play with if Brad goes to the Saints. At Giants would play with his cousin and is talented, Not sure on his speed, which I think we lack in a game breaking sense around the spaces in some games.

 

[Andre the Giant]

Reading reports we upped our offer to cogs to try and keep him

I really hope that’s not true. If we are offering 1.3 mil I have no idea how we keep Whitfield or Cameron who Imo are more important to the way we go about it

He deserves to be paid no doubt- but the 1 mil mark seems about right to me

What are you a money manager now? How do you put values like that up? The club has to look at the bigger picture and how important that player is not only on the park but also off it.

No player is irreplaceable but the work Cogs does both on and off the park and the care he has for the team and his fellow players is something you cannot limit to a rudimentary number.

I personally believe Whitfield is our best and most important player on the park and Cameron very important but neither do what Cogs does off the park. That’s not a mark against them, they’re both loyal and great clubman be he’s a unique spirit and much like Phil Davis and Cal Ward have really done a lot to create the great culture at the club.

If it takes 1.3 I’d pay Cogs that. You lose him and you probably lose Whitfield and Cameron anyway as most of all these guys want to win a flag and win it together.

This is why our lack of ruthlessness to coaching and medical has been such a costly error and has maybe cost us 10 years in pursuit of a flag.

 

[Bay Giant]

Why aren’t we being discussed as suitors for Grundy?

If Cogs goes....bloody get Grundy!

 

[dlanod]

Why aren’t we being discussed as suitors for Grundy?

If Cogs goes....bloody get Grundy!

What's our selling point? Not home, not as much cash, not playing with his mates.

 

[Colonial]

What's our selling point? Not home, not as much cash, not playing with his mates.

Orange is a nice colour though?

 

[Bay Giant]

Orange is the best colour!

 

[Giant Strides]

What's our selling point? Not home, not as much cash, not playing with his mates.

Damn, that's a compelling argument!

 

[Orange Agent]

I don't like paying him 1.3. Sets a bad precedent and goes against the pay structure that has been in place in the past. And I honestly can't see how we can afford that much.

 

[fridgeman]

I think when people are talking about potential trades they need to take into account how the club does not have very much flexibility in the SC and any targets on a above average salary will take away from a current player and based on the clubs strategies in the past the club will look at DFAs and under utilised players looking for opportunities and as in the past the club will need to spread the age profile and also the salaries of the big contracts
I think Sheridan will be kept unless he wants a move and my reason is if D Buckley is kept on for 2 years then surely Sheridan is worth another year as experience in the NEAFL
The club has been good in managing the salaries of the top players and a reason why I think the max for a player at the club is 950k pa over the length of the contract and it could be that 1 of Coniglio, Whitfield, Cameron or Williams will leave the club although Williams will not command the salary of the others it could be that the player that leaves is after the money and big lights of Melbourne

 

[captainMyCaptain]

I don't like paying him 1.3. Sets a bad precedent and goes against the pay structure that has been in place in the past. And I honestly can't see how we can afford that much.

Agree and personally feel that 1.3 is what you pay to get a top-line player to leave his current club not what you pay for someone to stay at their current club and certainly not what you pay a guy who wants to be the next captain. As far as I'm concerned a leader is prepared to take a bit less to help keep as many A grade players at the club as possible. That said I still hope he stays as we are clearly a better team with him then without.

 

[Andre the Giant]

I don't like paying him 1.3. Sets a bad precedent and goes against the pay structure that has been in place in the past. And I honestly can't see how we can afford that much.

It would really depend on how the money is broken up. If it’s 1.3 straight out then no, but if it’s broken up into ambassadorial and afl sponsorship (which it would be) then who cares?

The cap will continue to rise and we are going to have a different look to our team. Unless the AFL re-introduce Cola or something similar the days of us fielding the 2016 squads or anything even close are gone.

We already have a bunch of blokes playing in the best 22 that should not be getting a game. We need our top 5 players to all be truly elite and paid accordingly, he sits comfortably in that group.

I take on board that players need to take a little less at their home clubs, but he’s really in very high demand so if we’re not in the same ball park then forget it.

Recently I had a very candid discussion with a senior official from a big club. He was telling me how clubs manoeuvre around the constraints of the salary cap and use it to their advantage. If I could go through it bit by bit it would make you lose a lot of hope.

These big clubs have such strong support in official and unofficial sponsors and can legally give so much to players and their families that it’s truly unfair. Add to that the fact players at our club are away from home, playing in front of small crowds and all you are left with is playing for success and connection with your mates. Brisbane has already gone past us so the lure of flags is dimming.

The AFL is all about money and optics. They like a National Competition and two sides in Sydney because it makes them a shit tonne of money. Their key constituents (the wealthy clubs) love that part but hate having to compromise success by sharing talent.

GWS was brought in because of the need for an extra team in a highly populated region and the additional television rights money and cut through into a populous area.

Knowing how difficult it would be the AFL gave unprecedented player talent resources to the club but did not support that with adequate coaching support, medical or even facilities (initially). They basically just looked at the cash cow.

With pressure from Eddie McGuire (the pseudo CEO of the sport) and other senior figures from the big clubs they realised they potentially created a monster and all agreed to create mechanisms to strip it back (take away COLA, reshape Academy, free agency and pathetic free agency compensation).

They’ve done this to a point where they have actually now gone too far. The club has arguably missed the flag window and faces the very real prospect of being ripped apart within 12 months after losing its biggest stars.

If the AFL genuinely cared about creating a strong 2nd Sydney team (beyond the precious TV rights) they would see the danger signs now and make some changes.

Any organisation of their scope would give the best coaches (Clarkson and Chris Scott) whatever they needed and send them and the team they required to the two expansion clubs.

They would also investigate what clubs are doing to give associated financial windfalls (via coterie and “friends”) to players and their families or they may as well scrap the salary cap and just let the rich clubs fight over it like the EPL.

We are so ridiculously disadvantaged, we have to overpay everyone, from our stars, to our b graders, to our unproven kids, to any coaches. If they want to be fair we need allowances for this to give us a fighting chance.

We are at a fork in the road, action needs to happen or just watch the Giants become Gold Coast Suns Mark 2. The ball is in their court now.

 

[Brave New World]

It would really depend on how the money is broken up. If it’s 1.3 straight out then no, but if it’s broken up into ambassadorial and afl sponsorship (which it would be) then who cares?

The cap will continue to rise and we are going to have a different look to our team. Unless the AFL re-introduce Cola or something similar the days of us fielding the 2016 squads or anything even close are gone.

We already have a bunch of blokes playing in the best 22 that should not be getting a game. We need our top 5 players to all be truly elite and paid accordingly, he sits comfortably in that group.

I take on board that players need to take a little less at their home clubs, but he’s really in very high demand so if we’re not in the same ball park then forget it.

Recently I had a very candid discussion with a senior official from a big club. He was telling me how clubs manoeuvre around the constraints of the salary cap and use it to their advantage. If I could go through it bit by bit it would make you lose a lot of hope.

These big clubs have such strong support in official and unofficial sponsors and can legally give so much to players and their families that it’s truly unfair. Add to that the fact players at our club are away from home, playing in front of small crowds and all you are left with is playing for success and connection with your mates. Brisbane has already gone past us so the lure of flags is dimming.

The AFL is all about money and optics. They like a National Competition and two sides in Sydney because it makes them a s**t tonne of money. Their key constituents (the wealthy clubs) love that part but hate having to compromise success by sharing talent.

GWS was brought in because of the need for an extra team in a highly populated region and the additional television rights money and cut through into a populous area.

Knowing how difficult it would be the AFL gave unprecedented player talent resources to the club but did not support that with adequate coaching support, medical or even facilities (initially). They basically just looked at the cash cow.

With pressure from Eddie McGuire (the pseudo CEO of the sport) and other senior figures from the big clubs they realised they potentially created a monster and all agreed to create mechanisms to strip it back (take away COLA, reshape Academy, free agency and pathetic free agency compensation).

They’ve done this to a point where they have actually now gone too far. The club has arguably missed the flag window and faces the very real prospect of being ripped apart within 12 months after losing its biggest stars.

If the AFL genuinely cared about creating a strong 2nd Sydney team (beyond the precious TV rights) they would see the danger signs now and make some changes.

Any organisation of their scope would give the best coaches (Clarkson and Chris Scott) whatever they needed and send them and the team they required to the two expansion clubs.

They would also investigate what clubs are doing to give associated financial windfalls (via coterie and “friends”) to players and their families or they may as well scrap the salary cap and just let the rich clubs fight over it like the EPL.

We are so ridiculously disadvantaged, we have to overpay everyone, from our stars, to our b graders, to our unproven kids, to any coaches. If they want to be fair we need allowances for this to give us a fighting chance.

We are at a fork in the road, action needs to happen or just watch the Giants become Gold Coast Suns Mark 2. The ball is in their court now.

The four northern clubs have put forward proposals to set things back to right (post COLA). As you say the AFL Commission went too far but we’ll soon see if they are bright enough to realise that; but I can easily imagine any success from Brisbane will be used to cry “see they don’t need extra help”.

As far as the bogger clubs using their “strong support in official and unofficial sponsors”, we have board members connected to some reasonably big corporate entities; hopefully that and other minor, local sponsors provides networks which can assist players in ways similar to the southerners.
Which reminds me, do any of the players still drive a skoda??

 

[Danny88]

What are you a money manager now? How do you put values like that up? The club has to look at the bigger picture and how important that player is not only on the park but also off it.

No player is irreplaceable but the work Cogs does both on and off the park and the care he has for the team and his fellow players is something you cannot limit to a rudimentary number.

I personally believe Whitfield is our best and most important player on the park and Cameron very important but neither do what Cogs does off the park. That’s not a mark against them, they’re both loyal and great clubman be he’s a unique spirit and much like Phil Davis and Cal Ward have really done a lot to create the great culture at the club.

If it takes 1.3 I’d pay Cogs that. You lose him and you probably lose Whitfield and Cameron anyway as most of all these guys want to win a flag and win it together.

This is why our lack of ruthlessness to coaching and medical has been such a costly error and has maybe cost us 10 years in pursuit of a flag.

Fancy that.... someone sharing an opinion on an opinion forum

I’m about sick and tired of your high and mighty stance. If I think he is worth a million why do you give a shit?

 

[Giant Strides]

Everyone please remember not to play the man. Yes, it's an opinion forum, so you can disagree with the opinion, but please do it respectfully. And if someone posts in a way that plays the man, please don't fan the flames. Report it to the mods or just send us a PM to highlight your concern.