List Mgmt. 2020 List Management II

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F_therest

Brownlow Medallist
Oct 3, 2013
15,062
30,990
AFL Club
Carlton
What irks me about Kennedy, is that every good game this season has been in the wet on a slow deck, on a dry deck he fails to impact, coincidence or just too slow?
Happened too often for it to be a coincidence. When the game is slow, scrappy and a contest he shines...along with Cripps & Setterfield. Which is part of the reason we've done well as a team in wet games this year.

When it's dry, quick and a high-running game Kennedy gets exposed. As does our team with Cripps/Setterfield as well as a midfield unit. Hawks/WC/Collingwood/Saints all torched us through the middle of the ground.
 

Stamos

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 30, 2010
13,197
19,348
AFL Club
Carlton
What do you think we need Stamos ?

Many of us get a little excited for just about every name that gets raised.
I don't and I don't want to see us taking on surplus players just to be seen to be doing 'stuff' and more to that point; to suggest that we don't trust what we have.

That would make for a terrible outcome for us and for what has been put in place already.
Our best course to becoming a powerhouse is to develop well and if we can't do that.......throw the baby out with the bathwater and start again.
Williams would be ideal (as a HBF)
We need someone to replace Betts in the team, a genuinely quick, goal kicking, tackling forward pocket.

Sure another good mid would be nice, but more than that I'd prefer a good midfield coach. We've got plenty of midfield talent, even if much of it is young and unproven, but they don't function well enough as a group. You would hope that another pre-season and good coaching would be enough to rectify it.

Beyond that, we need a 3rd ruckman, and a KPD to develop.

So it probably looks like minimal changes to many. Fingers crossed for Williams (rightfully our no.1 target) then perhaps one more current player, and 2-3 draftees.
 

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Blue Pulse

Premiership Player
Mar 19, 2014
3,118
6,650
AFL Club
Carlton
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Denver Broncos
he only played three didn't he?...... pretty small sample .

And doesn't Samo grow a leg in the wet?
Played 6, still a small sample, didn't spend enough time on the ball as per Cuningham, Fisher, Walsh, and others. We just didn't rotate enough guys through there. Our delivery to our fwds sucks at the best of time, he should be seen as another target when he plays fwd.

Yes, Samo's best games are in the wet, skill don't leave him in the wet.
 

HARKER

Hall of Famer
Oct 15, 2008
49,918
81,075
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
Williams would be ideal (as a HBF)
We need someone to replace Betts in the team, a genuinely quick, goal kicking, tackling forward pocket.

Sure another good mid would be nice, but more than that I'd prefer a good midfield coach. We've got plenty of midfield talent, even if much of it is young and unproven, but they don't function well enough as a group. You would hope that another pre-season and good coaching would be enough to rectify it.

Beyond that, we need a 3rd ruckman, and a KPD to develop.

So it probably looks like minimal changes to many. Fingers crossed for Williams (rightfully our no.1 target) then perhaps one more current player, and 2-3 draftees.
We're pretty close then.

I know what you're saying about someone to replace Betts but I don't think they'll be there.
Even though Betts isn't an agitator, he does agitate with the time and effort required to keep him quiet.

I want small/medium sized goal-kickers but for me......they have to be the right types and not just some who wait for others to do the work for them.
If we can't find anyone....I'd throw down the gauntlet to Honey. Give him one year to show us what he has...and I think he has plenty.
Opportunity can be a wonderful thing, sometimes.
 

Stamos

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 30, 2010
13,197
19,348
AFL Club
Carlton
We're pretty close then.

I know what you're saying about someone to replace Betts but I don't think they'll be there.
Even though Betts isn't an agitator, he does agitate with the time and effort required to keep him quiet.

I want small/medium sized goal-kickers but for me......they have to be the right types and not just some who wait for others to do the work for them.
If we can't find anyone....I'd throw down the gauntlet to Honey. Give him one year to show us what he has...and I think he has plenty.
Opportunity can be a wonderful thing, sometimes.
Betts has lost that danger though, he's fumbling and can't keep his feet.

Sure, it would be great if Honey or Owies could become that player for us.
 

Blue__Balls

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 22, 2014
9,264
28,440
AFL Club
Carlton
Williams would be ideal (as a HBF)
We need someone to replace Betts in the team, a genuinely quick, goal kicking, tackling forward pocket.

Sure another good mid would be nice, but more than that I'd prefer a good midfield coach. We've got plenty of midfield talent, even if much of it is young and unproven, but they don't function well enough as a group. You would hope that another pre-season and good coaching would be enough to rectify it.

Beyond that, we need a 3rd ruckman, and a KPD to develop.

So it probably looks like minimal changes to many. Fingers crossed for Williams (rightfully our no.1 target) then perhaps one more current player, and 2-3 draftees.
I think a mature midfielder from a side with a good midfield system does this job just as well.

Problem we've got is that our mids have only learnt from our coaches.

Cripps, Murph, Ed, Walsh, Dow, SPS, Stocker - all Carlton-only.
Setters and Kennedy came from GWS, but were young and had very limited exposure, so they weren't bringing any IP with them.
Gibbons - straight from the VFL.
Martin - from a struggling GC side who have only just started to turn the corner.

A great midfield coach would be fantastic. But equally, a talented, mature mid from another side who can bring some new ideas...yes please.

Particularly so given that said midfielders would have sat through oppo analysis for their current clubs and would be able to tell us exactly what other sides have identified as the way to beat us.
 

Stamos

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 30, 2010
13,197
19,348
AFL Club
Carlton
I think a mature midfielder from a side with a good midfield system does this job just as well.

Problem we've got is that our mids have only learnt from our coaches.

Cripps, Murph, Ed, Walsh, Dow, SPS, Stocker - all Carlton-only.
Setters and Kennedy came from GWS, but were young and had very limited exposure, so they weren't bringing any IP with them.
Gibbons - straight from the VFL.
Martin - from a struggling GC side who have only just started to turn the corner.

A great midfield coach would be fantastic. But equally, a talented, mature mid from another side who can bring some new ideas...yes please.

Particularly so given that said midfielders would have sat through oppo analysis for their current clubs and would be able to tell us exactly what other sides have identified as the way to beat us.
Only if they're from a successful side. Not sure how much a Viney or a Merrett help in that regard.
One player is going to have less influence than a coach over how the rest of the mids set up and play.
 

BigBreakfast

Club Legend
Sep 19, 2019
2,809
4,405
AFL Club
Carlton
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Lakeshow
Read the post, and you'll realise how daft these statements are.

Moore takes up a rookie list spot, so unless those are decreasing, there's value in keeping a 6'4" player with fast hands and a good strength/speed/endurance mix to see if we can tool him up as a midfielder.

If you want to focus on players who are taking up senior list spots for no benefit to us, look no further than Finbar and Kennedy.
A rookie list spot is still a spot. Cat B etc are just ways to keep the price down.
You read my post, I just focused on who you are prepared to sell. I reads like a rebuild yet Moore makes the cut.
Trade bait: Marchbank, JSOS, O'Brien, Casboult, Cuningham, Plowman, Fisher, SPS
 

HARKER

Hall of Famer
Oct 15, 2008
49,918
81,075
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
If we get to the end of the trade period with Williams for free as our only addition, and haven't lost any required players, I think we will have done well enough.
I agree with you but to attain that speedy accumulator would really be the icing on the cake for me.

What's there to be attained from pursuing the likes of Witherden, Graham, Wright etc?
Even if they somehow made us a little better, what's the consequence of taking on too many players that we then feel the need to slot straight into the team next year? No one thinks about this.

People will disagree but - What happened when we took on Newnes last year? Newman the year before?
When we trade for players we somehow invariably give them first bite of the cherry.

Neither Newnes nor Newman stood out in the respective first pre-season with us, but when the teams were named they were there and to a large degree, remained there even when they weren't playing well. This deprives opportunity to others until we realise.....gee, they weren't really that good, were they?

Given where we were last year, I would have sooner given the right young 5/10 player the opportunity to develop in the main team as opposed to the 6/10 senior player that just won't get any better. Fremantle provided opportunity from the get-go to Brayshaw, Cerra, Logue, Young and Serong and now they're all a part of their best team. (Injury did hold back Logue and Young though, but they showed plenty when there.)

So what happens when we keep players in the reserves for too long? I know exactly what happens. I've seen it all too often.

I worry for our lack of development and I know we're better resourced now, but we'll want to be and getting back to point #1 - Let's not be too smart by throwing darts all over the board. Give me one or two bullseyes every day of the week.
 

Stamos

Brownlow Medallist
Mar 30, 2010
13,197
19,348
AFL Club
Carlton
I agree with you but to attain that speedy accumulator would really be the icing on the cake for me.

What's there to be attained from pursuing the likes of Witherden, Graham, Wright etc?
Even if they somehow made us a little better, what's the consequence of taking on too many players that we then feel the need to slot straight into the team next year? No one thinks about this.

People will disagree but - What happened when we took on Newnes last year? Newman the year before?
When we trade for players we somehow invariably give them first bite of the cherry.

Neither Newnes nor Newman stood out in the respective first pre-season with us, but when the teams were named they were there and to a large degree, remained there even when they weren't playing well. This deprives opportunity to others until we realise.....gee, they weren't really that good, were they?

Given where we were last year, I would have sooner given the right young 5/10 player the opportunity to develop in the main team as opposed to the 6/10 senior player that just won't get any better. Fremantle provided opportunity from the get-go to Brayshaw, Cerra, Logue, Young and Serong and now they're all a part of their best team. (Injury did hold back Logue and Young though, but they showed plenty when there.)

So what happens when we keep players in the reserves for too long? I know exactly what happens. I've seen it all too often.

I worry for our lack of development and I know we're better resourced now, but we'll want to be and getting back to point #1 - Let's not be too smart by throwing darts all over the board. Give me one or two bullseyes every day of the week.
I will say that last year Newman wasn't holding anyone out, because we had so many injuries. I have no idea what happened to LOB this, hopefully he is a lot better for season 2021. It is interesting that Newnes came to us because he didn't think his best foot y was forward, where Saints were playing him, but he ended up playing his best footy for us this year as a forward.

I don't have an issue with picking up either of those players (I consider them both depth), but we have enough. No more of these types needed.
 

HARKER

Hall of Famer
Oct 15, 2008
49,918
81,075
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
I will say that last year Newman wasn't holding anyone out, because we had so many injuries. I have no idea what happened to LOB this, hopefully he is a lot better for season 2021. It is interesting that Newnes came to us because he didn't think his best foot y was forward, where Saints were playing him, but he ended up playing his best footy for us this year as a forward.

I don't have an issue with picking up either of those players (I consider them both depth), but we have enough. No more of these types needed.
No more depth players at all. We have to know what we have in our back yard and if we don't, we are in trouble.
If we do know what we have in our back yard and take on these depth players, we best start trading off some of the assets we have, whilst we can still attain some currency for them.

When you court a player, any player-manager worth his money will want to know what the club have in mind for that player.
They will want some assurances that the player will be afforded game time...and if anyone doesn't think this likely...you're not a player manager I'd want to have :)

Anyway, we'll see what comes about. Less is more.
 

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AndyLucimitis

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 14, 2002
6,173
9,466
Victoria
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Chelsea
Betts has lost that danger though, he's fumbling and can't keep his feet.

Sure, it would be great if Honey or Owies could become that player for us.


The only comment I'll make on Betts (and the same applies to McGov) is they may be better next year with 6-8 games on a hopefully dry MCG than the slippery decks we played on this year (although no excuse v Adelaide).
 

JustaBattler

Everyone Looks Better In Blue
May 31, 2012
18,802
30,249
AFL Club
Carlton
I'm pretty simple in looking at where we should target - it isnt as much 'where' it is 'what' for me.

Down back we've got Weitering
In the middle we have Cripps and Walsh
Up front we have Harry and (hopefully) Charlie

Everyone else is a 'role' player based on current form - and some are 'just' potential role players.

We need 2-3 more A graders to hit the magic required 8 of this type number. We have never been anywhere near that in 20 years.

So yeah - Williams would be an absolute great get- ticks the A grader box.


Also ( as an aside) I would be looking at big Joe Daniher - for the ultimate middle finger up to Essendon - my favourite non-Carlton player and he would look great wearing the ODNB
 

Blue_Fusion

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 4, 2015
7,548
8,896
AFL Club
Carlton
The more I think about it, the more I reckon we just can't let Williams slip away...

We need to go hard this trade period it's no secret and what we don't really need is to draft more first rounders.

Make Williams an offer he can't refuse.

Do the same for Merrett or Kelly and we use our first rounders to get the trade done.

Those worried about the cap and retaining our other gun players... think about this, with Williams and Merrett plus the natural development, the on field success is going to come quick. When players are close to a flag after building toward it for 5+ years they don't just walk out.
 

Wickzki

Premium Platinum
Oct 1, 2010
16,492
23,076
Brisbane
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
PDX Blazers, Angels, Patriots, MCFC

Here's an interesting article that I found on Reddit.

14 of our 36 players used this year were acquired over the 2018-2019 player exchange/draft periods. This accounts for 38.9% of our list.

Port, who smashed the 2018 AFL Draft, only account for 30% of their list.

Gold Coast, who similarly petered out in the second half of the year, account of 13 of 31 (41%). Fremantle account for 14/34 (41.7%) and finished similarly to us but were aided by having a substantial period where they weren't forced to hub.

St. Kilda (44% - lots of veterans in plug and play roles) are the only team ahead of us on the ladder who had a greater percentage of newcomers to the list than we did.

This includes key players including Sam Walsh, Jack Martin, Michael Gibbons, and others. When you factor in that earlier acquisitions to the list in Sam Docherty and Tom Williamson who have had the previous two seasons lost due to injury the lack of continuity hurts.

We've already identified other reasons why we faltered in the second half of the year but I argue that this is a significant contribution to those already provided. The simple fact of the matter is that when other teams were hitting their stride and had the continuity of playing together for many years behind them we were still striving to learn to play together. Add the other reasons to this and it's no surprise that we have had a poor tail end to the season.

However, promising signs moving forward. Add the right pieces like St. Kilda did and we'll stand to gain in the short and long term.
 

Elmer_Judd

#Teague2020
Jul 25, 2019
9,710
17,776
AFL Club
Carlton
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Anyway, onto the here and now, and assuming list sizes remain the same:

Retired: Simpson, Kreuzer
Potential retirements: Betts
Delist: Kennedy, O'Dwyer, Lang, Polson, Goddard (r), Cottrell (r)
Possible delist: Newman, Macreadie, Moore (r), F.Phillips (r)

Trade bait: Marchbank, JSOS, O'Brien, Casboult, Cuningham, Plowman, Fisher, SPS

Ideal FA/trade acquisitions: Williams, Crouch (subject to medical)

Ideal draft candidate: Will Phillips


Potential best 22, assuming Betts retires:

FB: Plowman/Marchbank Jones Williamson
HB: Docherty Weitering Williams
C: Walsh E.Curnow O'Brien
HF: Martin C.Curnow Fisher
FF: Kemp McKay Cuningham

R: TDK Cripps Crouch

Int: Setterfield, Murphy, W.Phillips, SPS

EMG:
Dow, Gibbons/Newnes, Casboult, JSOS/McGovern

Next 22:

FB: Plowman/Marchbank BSOS Newman
HB: ??? Macreadie ???
C: Newnes Philp Ramsay
HF: Honey McGovern Gibbons
FF: JSOS Casboult Owies

R: Pittonet Moore Dow

Int: Stocker, F.Phillips, ???, ???

This reveals our clearest needs at the draft beyond a premium mid: smaller defenders, forwards and mids. Players who can zip around the field and execute foot skills consistently. Of that shortlist, small forwards would be the least pressing, but if the draft order falls our way we should definitely snap up any talent.

The other obvious gap is that we probably need to bring in an athletic KPD to develop over time, in case Macreadie or BSOS never develop to replace Jones. KPF stocks also look a bit thin, but there's some flexibility due to TDK, Cripps and Kemp, alongside JSOS, Moore and McGovern, though Moore needs a lot of work.

Some might feel that Moore could solve the KPD issue, but I would honestly prefer to train him in the midfield group and see what he can produce. Get him lean and see what he can do throwing his weight around after training some stoppage reads all summer.
[/QUO


Normally I like your opinions Jimbo, but on Newman you are deadwrong. He has been a superb pick up for us and should be safe as houses here.
 

La Dispute

La Dispute
Jul 14, 2005
12,025
15,838
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Manchester City, Boston Bruins
I agree with you but to attain that speedy accumulator would really be the icing on the cake for me.

What's there to be attained from pursuing the likes of Witherden, Graham, Wright etc?
Even if they somehow made us a little better, what's the consequence of taking on too many players that we then feel the need to slot straight into the team next year? No one thinks about this.

People will disagree but - What happened when we took on Newnes last year? Newman the year before?
When we trade for players we somehow invariably give them first bite of the cherry.

Neither Newnes nor Newman stood out in the respective first pre-season with us, but when the teams were named they were there and to a large degree, remained there even when they weren't playing well. This deprives opportunity to others until we realise.....gee, they weren't really that good, were they?

Given where we were last year, I would have sooner given the right young 5/10 player the opportunity to develop in the main team as opposed to the 6/10 senior player that just won't get any better. Fremantle provided opportunity from the get-go to Brayshaw, Cerra, Logue, Young and Serong and now they're all a part of their best team. (Injury did hold back Logue and Young though, but they showed plenty when there.)

So what happens when we keep players in the reserves for too long? I know exactly what happens. I've seen it all too often.

I worry for our lack of development and I know we're better resourced now, but we'll want to be and getting back to point #1 - Let's not be too smart by throwing darts all over the board. Give me one or two bullseyes every day of the week.
If anything this season is further reinforcing how big the gap is between our developing young players and middle-aged career C-graders like Newman and Newnes. In a group of 22 you're not going to have a full list of plug and play performers - every week even dominant teams have guys who're down on form and biding time or are given some grace because of past performances.

Freo are also playing Aish, Conca, Shulz- guys they'd rather be replaced by better more talented players, but you still need in the interim. We are in pretty much the same boat - happy to give deserving young players opportunity, but still very much in a transitional phase and requiring senior support - even if their very best isn't up to where we'd like it to be.

I'll address it again because it needs to be said - this dichotomy of talented young player vs senior role player needs to end. Guys like Dow and LOB need to earn their way into the team, and in the few games they have played they've been disappointing - far moreso than Newman or Newnes have been in their worst games. Until they close that gap, and I know you're talking more broadly with the recruitment of Witherden and Graham (who haven't got close to peaking, as an aside) players of their calibre are going to continue to be introduced.
 

HARKER

Hall of Famer
Oct 15, 2008
49,918
81,075
Melbourne
AFL Club
Carlton
If anything this season is further reinforcing how big the gap is between our developing young players and middle-aged career C-graders like Newman and Newnes. In a group of 22 you're not going to have a full list of plug and play performers - every week even dominant teams have guys who're down on form and biding time or are given some grace because of past performances.

Freo are also playing Aish, Conca, Shulz- guys they'd rather be replaced by better more talented players, but you still need in the interim. We are in pretty much the same boat - happy to give deserving young players opportunity, but still very much in a transitional phase and requiring senior support - even if their very best isn't up to where we'd like it to be.

I'll address it again because it needs to be said - this dichotomy of talented young player vs senior role player needs to end. Guys like Dow and LOB need to earn their way into the team, and in the few games they have played they've been disappointing - far moreso than Newman or Newnes have been in their worst games. Until they close that gap, and I know you're talking more broadly with the recruitment of Witherden and Graham (who haven't got close to peaking, as an aside) players of their calibre are going to continue to be introduced.
There are several key points in this discussion for me, but it takes a lot to get through and putting my List Managers hat on, I find it's nowhere near as easy as just saying let's get him, and him and then also him and the rest will simply work itself out in due course...........because it won't.

The club has to know what it has before taking on any one player, let alone a handful.
There are many considerations to take into account, but no one seems to mention the TPP.
One has to have an eye to next year and if you look at next year, we have a lot more talent to tie down than for what we had this year.

Every player that comes to us by way of trade/FA will definitely be earning more than for what they were earning at their previous team.
We don't have access to all the numbers but some things are somewhat obvious.

I've run out of energy now, but maybe I've planted down enough for now and pick it up later on and in summary -
Don't pay twice as much to get someone you have sitting in your backyard already. It will hurt you in the end.
 

djholmes

Team Captain
Oct 9, 2007
496
419
Tasmania
AFL Club
Carlton
Team for next season:

B: Plowman----------------Marchbank-----------------Newman

H: Docherty----------------Weitering------------------*Saad

C: Newnes------------------Cripps---------------------O'Brien

H: Cuningham-------------C.Curnow------------------Martin

F: Betts---------------------McKay---------------------SPS

Foll: Pittonet, *J.Kelly, Walsh

Bench: De Koning, Williamson, Dow, Kemp
 

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