List Mgmt. 2020 List Management

[Jeremias]

In an alternate universe, Dow is drafted to GWS at pick 3. Averages 14 and 17 touches in his first two years before being sent forward and then to the two's in the following year as he can't crack the 22. But he has shown glimpses of explosive pace, contested work and a side-step to match. This board is probably pleading to throw our first rounder at him. Grass is always greener.

Understand it has been a poor year, but the injuries haven't helped fitness wise. Needs time to develop and he should either be in the midfield or in the two's, he's not a forward. Would be irresponsible to trade at his lowest value.

This is absolutely spot on. Well done.

 

[Blue Pulse]

With regards to our older players, a big factor I would put into letting them play on, would be how helpful they are in the development of our younger players coming through? Do they encourage, help and assist development or is it just about themselves?

If they bring out the best in our younger players, keep them, if they don't, thanks for your service.

Maybe I'm drawing a long bow, but sit them in a locker room next to their numbered lockers and then see how the guy beside them is travelling?

 

[Blue__Balls]

For those who missed it:

'You've got to toughen up': Diesel slams Carlton's former No.3 pick

Carlton champion Greg Williams has delivered some blunt advice for 2018 NAB AFL Draft No.3 pick Paddy Dow

www.afl.com.au

Gonna toot my own horn here - this is what I've been calling for with Dow most of the year. Needs to play reserves until he gets his head around the fact that he's not a child any more, not a rookie, not a "developing player". Yes, he is still developing, in so far as every player is always developing, but he can't hide behind that label. That attitude, as a player coming to the end of his 3rd season, with almost 50 games to his name - that gets him nowhere. Giving him games and "waiting" or "hoping it clicks" is no help to him or us.

The best thing about this situation is that he's contracted for 2 more years. That means we keep reinforcing that message, that it's on him to put together complete games not just good moments - and only then will he get senior game time. And if somebody comes calling, asking if he might be up for trade, we tell them he's contracted, we have a lot of faith in him...but we'll listen to offers. Maybe someone like Geelong are happy to pay a little over value to invest in their future, maybe NM get desperate for something to help their rebuild, maybe Richmond want to partner him up with his brother.

It might be one of those shit situations where the only thing that gets through to him is being traded/delisted, in which case it's a lose/lose for us. Keep him and have him jog around for 3+ years doing bugger all, or trade him, the penny drops, and he realises he actually needs to pull his finger out and becomes the player we hoped for elsewhere.

I'm not putting Paddy up for trade. But if someone wants him, I'm open to strong offers for sure.

 

[95blues]

With regards to our older players, a big factor I would put into letting them play on, would be how helpful they are in the development of our younger players coming through? Do they encourage, help and assist development or is it just about themselves?

If they bring out the best in our younger players, keep them, if they don't, thanks for your service.

Maybe I'm drawing a long bow, but sit them in a locker room next to their numbered lockers and then see how the guy beside them is travelling?

Agree with this.

However, there's words and then theres actions. I'm 100% certain Murph etc are great around the club and on the track. Come game day though they don't all lead by example. Watch a Dow chase or tackle attempt and see which senior player it reminds you of.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

For those who missed it:

'You've got to toughen up': Diesel slams Carlton's former No.3 pick

Carlton champion Greg Williams has delivered some blunt advice for 2018 NAB AFL Draft No.3 pick Paddy Dow

www.afl.com.au

Gonna toot my own horn here - this is what I've been calling for with Dow most of the year. Needs to play reserves until he gets his head around the fact that he's not a child any more, not a rookie, not a "developing player". Yes, he is still developing, in so far as every player is always developing, but he can't hide behind that label. That attitude, as a player coming to the end of his 3rd season, with almost 50 games to his name - that gets him nowhere. Giving him games and "waiting" or "hoping it clicks" is no help to him or us.

The best thing about this situation is that he's contracted for 2 more years. That means we keep reinforcing that message, that it's on him to put together complete games not just good moments - and only then will he get senior game time. And if somebody comes calling, asking if he might be up for trade, we tell them he's contracted, we have a lot of faith in him...but we'll listen to offers. Maybe someone like Geelong are happy to pay a little over value to invest in their future, maybe NM get desperate for something to help their rebuild, maybe Richmond want to partner him up with his brother.

It might be one of those sh*t situations where the only thing that gets through to him is being traded/delisted, in which case it's a lose/lose for us. Keep him and have him jog around for 3+ years doing bugger all, or trade him, the penny drops, and he realises he actually needs to pull his finger out and becomes the player we hoped for elsewhere.

I'm not putting Paddy up for trade. But if someone wants him, I'm open to strong offers for sure.

One of Geelongs first round picks swapped with our 2nd, so would be Geelong pick 15 for Pick 25 + Dow is something we should put on the table... Then would give us an extra 1st round pick to use on Papley or/and Williams/Kelly..

 

[Eiffel 65]

One of Geelongs first round picks swapped with our 2nd, so would be Geelong pick 15 for Pick 25 + Dow is something we should put on the table... Then would give us an extra 1st round pick to use on Papley or/and Williams/Kelly..

You're kidding right..............

I honestly don't know if you're being sarcastic or not.

A minor pick downgrade in a compromised draft so we can on-trade with another first round pick (potential a top 10 selection) for a small forward who has kicked 3 goals since round 8...............

 

[agro]

You're kidding right..............

I honestly don't know if you're being sarcastic or not.

A minor pick downgrade in a compromised draft so we can on-trade with another first round pick (potential a top 10 selection) for a small forward who has kicked 3 goals since round 8...............

Just wait for tonight.

 

[murphster]

For those who missed it:

'You've got to toughen up': Diesel slams Carlton's former No.3 pick

Carlton champion Greg Williams has delivered some blunt advice for 2018 NAB AFL Draft No.3 pick Paddy Dow

www.afl.com.au

Gonna toot my own horn here - this is what I've been calling for with Dow most of the year. Needs to play reserves until he gets his head around the fact that he's not a child any more, not a rookie, not a developing player. Yes, he is still developing, but he can't see that as an excuse to underperform. That attitude, as a player coming to the end of his 3rd season, with almost 50 games to his name - that gets him nowhere. Giving him games and "waiting" or "hoping it clicks" is no help to him or us.

The best thing about this situation is that he's contracted for 2 more years. That means we keep reinforcing that message, that it's on him to put together complete games not just good moments - and only then will he get senior game time. And if somebody comes calling, asking if he might be up for trade, we tell them he's contracted, we have a lot of faith in him...but we'll listen to offers. Maybe someone like Geelong are happy to pay a little over value to invest in their future, maybe NM get desperate for something to help their rebuild, maybe Richmond want to partner him up with his brother.

It might be one of those sh*t situations where the only thing that gets through to him is being traded/delisted, in which case it's a lose/lose for us. Keep him and have him jog around for 3+ years doing bugger all, or trade him, the penny drops, and he realises he actually needs to pull his finger out and becomes the player we hoped for elsewhere.

I'm not putting Paddy up for trade. But if someone wants him, I'm open to strong offers for sure.

Yep and Diesel is bang on the money as usual, there is no point in playing them in the seniors until they prove they can handle it and people on here bleating that we shouldn’t be playing Murphy or Curnow ahead of the kids are the same ones that would be bleating about a losing culture if we played the kids in the guts and lost.

If Dow or Stocker or Obrien or anyone else wants a spot in the senior team we’ll go and earn it just like Setters did this year through damn hard work, Cottrell earned his chance through consistent performances in the scratch matches ditto with Polson and now Owies, none of the above 3 have performed consistently at reserves level so why should they get a senior spot, even Dow really hadn’t played consistent footy before he got a shot and look how that turned out.

If we want a high level of performance from the team this is the right wAy to achieve it by making players absolutely have to bang the door down, to go back to the 2s and improve on your deficiencies, they know what these are the coaches tell them what they need to work on, O’Keefe in his match reports points out the areas they need to improve on so even we the supporters now know the areas they are working to improve. It’s not brain surgery work work and then work some more.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

With regards to our older players, a big factor I would put into letting them play on, would be how helpful they are in the development of our younger players coming through? Do they encourage, help and assist development or is it just about themselves?

If they bring out the best in our younger players, keep them, if they don't, thanks for your service.

Maybe I'm drawing a long bow, but sit them in a locker room next to their numbered lockers and then see how the guy beside them is travelling?

With this, i am actually not convinced they are helpful at all, none of them have played with any success throughout there career so can they teach our guys what it takes to win.. This is the same issue we have with our assistants, Cam Bruce, Brent Stanton, John Barker played there entire careers playing in under performing teams.. Dale Amos hasnt played, Playfair was part of succesful clubs but never played in the premierships. Luke Power is the only coach we have who has played in a premiership.

 

[Eiffel 65]

Just wait for tonight.

If Papley kicks a bag tonight, I think that says more about our small defenders than Papley.

Papley has been out of form for almost 2 months now. If that changes, all it shows is that we need to be looking at a small lockdown defender before a small forward.

 

[scblues]

One of Geelongs first round picks swapped with our 2nd, so would be Geelong pick 15 for Pick 25 + Dow is something we should put on the table... Then would give us an extra 1st round pick to use on Papley or/and Williams/Kelly..

so the equivalent of pick 47 straight up... hmmm u b crazy dude

 

[AB_Blue]

With this, i am actually not convinced they are helpful at all, none of them have played with any success throughout there career so can they teach our guys what it takes to win.. This is the same issue we have with our assistants, Cam Bruce, Brent Stanton, John Barker played there entire careers playing in under performing teams.. Dale Amos hasnt played, Playfair was part of succesful clubs but never played in the premierships. Luke Power is the only coach we have who has played in a premiership.

Surely Power becomes a midfield line coach next year ?

Amos doing a fine job

Stoppages and forward line coaching needs attention


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

You're kidding right..............

I honestly don't know if you're being sarcastic or not.

A minor pick downgrade in a compromised draft so we can on-trade with another first round pick (potential a top 10 selection) for a small forward who has kicked 3 goals since round 8...............

Forget about the draft picks.. Its about what it would allow us to do. If the end game is to get Zac Williams, Josh Kelly or Tom Papley and we have to sacrifice Dow to do so then we should jump at the chance..

These clubs will put 2 x 1st rounders as there price, usually its irrelevant what pick they are as long as they are 1st round..

 

[Eiffel 65]

Forget about the draft picks.. Its about what it would allow us to do. If the end game is to get Zac Williams, Josh Kelly or Tom Papley and we have to sacrifice Dow to do so then we should jump at the chance..

These clubs will put 2 x 1st rounders as there price, usually its irrelevant what pick they are as long as they are 1st round..

I think your projections on what Papley will do for our side are too optimistic.

 

[agro]

If Papley kicks a bag tonight, I think that says more about our small defenders than Papley.

Papley has been out of form for almost 2 months now. If that changes, all it shows is that we need to be looking at a small lockdown defender before a small forward.

Pray tell who our small defenders are?

As I recall Plowman played on Stephenson who has been pretty much putrid all year and since - but had a day out against us.

 

[Eiffel 65]

Pray tell who our small defenders are?

As I recall Plowman played on Stephenson who has been pretty much putrid all year and since - but had a day out against us.

Correct. Stephenson has had a down year, in and out of the team. Stephenson followed up that performance with 8 disposals, 1 tackle, 0 goals & 0 behinds against the Lions.

Like I said, if Papley has a day out against us, that says more about our small defenders than what it says about Tom Papley.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

I think your projections on what Papley will do for our side are too optimistic.

All i know is he is in the top 3 small forwards in the comp, Since Malthouse turfed out Betts & Garlett we have spent every year looking for someone capable of replacing them, and still haven't been successful. I would happily trade 2 x first round picks to ensure that the hole is filled for the next 8-10 years.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Surely Power becomes a midfield line coach next year ?

Amos doing a fine job

Stoppages and forward line coaching needs attention


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It will depend on how much the soft cap squeeze hurts us, none of these guys would be on top dollar but we poached Russell which wouldnt have been cheap. DT would be on minimum chips for a senior coach so are probably in a really strong position to bring in some quality support around Teague

 

[Eiffel 65]

All i know is he is in the top 3 small forwards in the comp, Since Malthouse turfed out Betts & Garlett we have spent every year looking for someone capable of replacing them, and still haven't been successful. I would happily trade 2 x first round picks to ensure that the hole is filled for the next 8-10 years.

Charlie Cameron, Michael Walters and Toby Greene. The one thing these guys all have in common is elite kicking skills. Papley doesn't.

I'm not convinced you'd be making that statement if Tom Papley hadn't nominated Carlton in last year's trade period.

 

[Eiffel 65]

All i know is he is in the top 3 small forwards in the comp, Since Malthouse turfed out Betts & Garlett we have spent every year looking for someone capable of replacing them, and still haven't been successful. I would happily trade 2 x first round picks to ensure that the hole is filled for the next 8-10 years.

As for this point, if you trade our currency to fill a void at small forward, what happens when Simpson, Murphy, Ed, Jones and Casboult retire?

Your decision to sell the farm for Tom Papley, as well as trade away youth who were earmarked to replace these players has now left us with at least five voids to fill and no currency to bring in quality prospects.

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Nowhere did Diesel say trade Dow or give up on him or that he doesn’t have it in him.

Don’t think we need any I told you so’s, we all know Paddy has plenty of work to do, some of us just aren’t that keen to throw away 20 year olds so quickly, and it looks like the club thinks similar.

 

[HBF]

Missed passes can be attributed to exhaustion through lack of endurance.

A lot can change in a short space of time.

Needs a massive preseason heading into 2021 though.

I'm sorry but this doesn't wash with me. If he is tired then he needs to build his tank. And he missed an easy target after winning the footy which was just a poor kick

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

Charlie Cameron, Michael Walters and Toby Greene. The one thing these guys all have in common is elite kicking skills. Papley doesn't.

I'm not convinced you'd be making that statement if Tom Papley hadn't nominated Carlton in last year's trade period.

If he’s not top 3 he’d be top 5. I don’t reckon Greene and Walters are the same type anyway. Ryan would have some claims for a spot too.

Still top 10 in the coleman despite doing next to nothing for 2 months. Think you’re underrating him a little bit.

 

[Blue__Balls]

Nowhere did Diesel say trade Dow or give up on him or that he doesn’t have it in him.

Don’t think we need any I told you so’s, we all know Paddy has plenty of work to do, some of us just aren’t that keen to throw away 20 year olds so quickly, and it looks like the club thinks similar.

Of course he didn't say "trade him or give up on him" - he said Dow's biggest issue is himself. And extrapolating from that, if Dow wants to make the cut he needs to start playing with intensity instead of just ambling around and teasing with the odd decent piece of footwork. And if Dow doesn't do that, then there is only so long the club can and should be paying him and dedicating a list spot to him.

I'm not keen to throw Dow away, I want it to click, for him to put his head down and start dominating (and I mean genuinely dominating - BOG, match winning performances) at reserves level, earn a spot in the seniors, and then come in and put up a 20+ disposal, 5+ clearance, 5+ tackle performance from which he can build a strong run of form. He's capable of it. No doubt in my mind. But it all hinges on him realising that it won't happen unless he makes it happen.

In the two games since he came back, after having put together 2 or 3 solid reserves performances, he's had 20 disposals at 60% efficiency, 3 marks, 1 goal, 1 tackle, 2 inside 50s, 4 clearances, zero 1%ers and 2 score involvements. As a midfielder. Not average stats, that's his total contribution from two games. It's putrid. He was putting up better numbers in his first season.

So no, let's not toss him out the door. Let's make sure he understands that we expect better, and frankly he should expect better of himself. But at the same time, if another club picks up the phone and says "Is that young Dow fella on the table", we say "We're confident he's close to putting it all together, he's contracted, but we're wanting to be active in the player market this season so he's not off the table". If said club wants to make a bid for him, hear them out, and if it's a good enough deal for us then we take it and reinvest in players who have shown they have the desire.

Look at it this way. Losing Dow now doesn't set us back on-field, because he's not contributing on field. So it's a loss in future potential, but the return may get us something that does improve us right now, as well as moving forward. And we have plenty of young mids coming through as well, that losing one isn't going to destroy our future. Kemp, Stocker, Philp, Cunners, Kennedy, moving SPS and/or Fisher back into the middle, further improvement in Walsh and Setters.

Dow isn't critical to our future success. But he can be part of it if he wants to.

 

[Bleez40]

https://www.afl.com.au/news/497382/the-wing-kings-check-out-the-top-12-based-on-pure-numbers

Great article on the competitions wingers. Massive shoutout to Walsh who is probably only just behind Menegola and Hunter as the most effective pure wingers in the game. His last month or so has been extraordinary. For a 2nd year player to excel in a position that usually favours more seasoned players is amazing but not surprising considering the kid blows up his GPS every game. Would have been very easy for him to accept a drop off in performance due to being swapped to the wing and write it off as 2nd year blues but Walsh is built differently. Dow only has to look next to him for an example of the type of mindset needed to make it at this level.