2020 Non-Crows AFL Discussion

[Crow till I die]

I never claimed he did. But he kicked 6 from about half a game up forward. That matches 9 for a full game to my mind. The previous 2 weeks are irrelevant, my comment relates only to Your’s on that singular performance. Jars might not have been going too well in the midfield, but kicking 6 in a half where we started behind and ended up winning is pretty close to GAJ 9 in a full game as full forward in terms of goal kicking performances.

And what a 6 goal haul that was. .absolute clean hands one grabbing the ball and laserlike accuracy. Champion

 

[kirky]

The Hawthorn era was built around a small group of ELITE, once in a generation players; Hodge, Mitchell, Franklin, Rioli, Burgoyne will all be inducted into the Hall of Fame with Hodge and Franklin future Legends.

Who in our 2017 Grand Final side will be Hall of Famers?

Clarkson has been an outstanding coach but he has also had the cattle. It made sense for Hawthorn to recruit very good role players to remain in contention but they are now a middle of the road team despite recruiting some very good players like Mitchell, Winguard and O’Meara.

Chris Scott was a supercoach in 2011 but not so much once he lost the core of elite players (Bartel, Johnson, Scarlett, Chapman = at least three Hall of Famers)

We did rip Richmond apart last year (without Cotchin, Riewoldt and Rance).

Blighty was an amazing coach but what do Rucciuto, McLeod, Hart, Jarman, Goodwin and Bickley have in common?

Do Port have this now with Butters, Rozee and Duursma?

 

[Barneythecrab]

The Hawthorn era was built around a small group of ELITE, once in a generation players; Hodge, Mitchell, Franklin, Rioli, Burgoyne will all be inducted into the Hall of Fame with Hodge and Franklin future Legends.

Who in our 2017 Grand Final side will be Hall of Famers?

Clarkson has been an outstanding coach but he has also had the cattle. It made sense for Hawthorn to recruit very good role players to remain in contention but they are now a middle of the road team despite recruiting some very good players like Mitchell, Winguard and O’Meara.

Chris Scott was a supercoach in 2011 but not so much once he lost the core of elite players (Bartel, Johnson, Scarlett, Chapman = at least three Hall of Famers)

We did rip Richmond apart last year (without Cotchin, Riewoldt and Rance).

Blighty was an amazing coach but what do Rucciuto, McLeod, Hart, Jarman, Goodwin and Bickley have in common?

Definitely agree with your comment here mate. I’ve coached football for a fairly long time and can definitely say in my experience and also from talking to other coaches that it’s all about the cattle you have. It doesn’t matter how good your philosophy, game plan, structures And tactics are, if you don’t have the cattle you are not going to win. Clarkson, bomber Thomson, Leigh Mathews, Alan jeans whoever you won’t to choose, would not have gotten the the 1998 Fremantle team to a grand final.

 

[MarcusP2]

I know..but any team with burke, winmar, loewe, frawley and of course lockett should have been right up there. Or imagine if lockett had been at ff in that hawthorn side, he would have gone close to kicking 2000 goals imo

Dunstall was as close to Lockett as it was possible to get, I don't think there would have been too many more goals at Hawks (unless he drew more opportunities from Brereton or something).

Lockett may have been a better forward, there's an argument for Senior was a superior player as (when younger) he could get up the ground more. That said, Lockett being able to win a Brownlow as:
a) a forward
b) a known thug player

indicates his level.

 

[Crow till I die]

Dunstall was as close to Lockett as it was possible to get, I don't think there would have been too many more goals at Hawks (unless he drew more opportunities from Brereton or something).

Lockett may have been a better forward, there's an argument for Senior was a superior player as (when younger) he could get up the ground more. That said, Lockett being able to win a Brownlow as:
a) a forward
b) a known thug player

indicates his level.

It probably really comes down to personal preference when you are talking 2 players that are 2 of the greatest in the history of the game - elite of the elites at what they did

 

[skam85]

So THE MAESTRO probably better then?

efa

 

[Mego Red]

Do Port have this now with Butters, Rozee and Duursma?

I think GWS and Gold Coast have a LOT more young talent than Port.

 

[skam85]

Who in our 2017 Grand Final side will be Hall of Famers?

Charlie Cameron.

 

[hey shorty]

Charlie Cameron.

Unlikely

 

[Dudersaurus]

Definitely agree with your comment here mate. I’ve coached football for a fairly long time and can definitely say in my experience and also from talking to other coaches that it’s all about the cattle you have. It doesn’t matter how good your philosophy, game plan, structures And tactics are, if you don’t have the cattle you are not going to win. Clarkson, bomber Thomson, Leigh Mathews, Alan jeans whoever you won’t to choose, would not have gotten the the 1998 Fremantle team to a grand final.

A great coach can make a rabble passable, but that's about the limit unless talent comes in.

Demonstrating competence in coaching - ie the team outperforming expectations and building a team, is a significant draw for talent and makes the existing better players want to stay. They can also better identify talent and and list cloggers and make tough calls.

A great coach would not have lead 1998 Freo to a flag, but maybe by 2003.

A crap coach can ruin an elite playing group.

 

[cleanhands]

Definitely agree with your comment here mate. I’ve coached football for a fairly long time and can definitely say in my experience and also from talking to other coaches that it’s all about the cattle you have. It doesn’t matter how good your philosophy, game plan, structures And tactics are, if you don’t have the cattle you are not going to win. Clarkson, bomber Thomson, Leigh Mathews, Alan jeans whoever you won’t to choose, would not have gotten the the 1998 Fremantle team to a grand final.

But you need to see development and improvements in individuals

 

[Jack is Back]

My point was that with the benefit of hindsight, our 2017 Grand Final team lacked the top end class to win a flag. I can only think of one Premiership team in the last 20 years that didn’t have that core of absolute ELITE talent.

Eddie will be a Hall of Famer but he was starting to decline by the end of 2017 against the very best teams. Charlie might develop into a Hall of Famer but he was only showing glimpses in 2017 (how many posters said pick 12 from Brisbane was a steal). In contrast, Martin, Cotchin, Riewoldt and Rance were at the peak of their powers.

I have never suggested that Pyke was in the same league as Clarkson as a coach but imho he squeezed out some great performances from a bunch of good but not great footballers in 2016 and 2017. It was clear last season that he was as confused as our players and didn’t know how to stop the decline.

Changing coaches has not improved the quality of our squad and keeping Greenwood, CEY, Keath and Jenkins may have allowed us to be a bit more competitive but we would still be a bottom six team (Douglas, Otten, Betts and Jacobs would not have made any difference).

 

[Barneythecrab]

A great coach can make a rabble passable, but that's about the limit unless talent comes in.

Demonstrating competence in coaching - ie the team outperforming expectations and building a team, is a significant draw for talent and makes the existing better players want to stay. They can also better identify talent and and list cloggers and make tough calls.

A great coach would not have lead 1998 Freo to a flag, but maybe by 2003.

A crap coach can ruin an elite playing group.

I 100% agree, high competence in coaching and the ability to develop strong relationships will create buy in from the players. And Possibly the start of a successful team. However this takes time, high draft picks, exceptional talent ID And a huge amount of luck to get the correct process rolling.
You then get the attention of quality players across the league only once you are able to show that success is on the way or have a shit tonne of money to throw around. Shane Crawford isn’t moving from the Hawks to the Dockers in 1998 just cos he heard the coach is good. He’s moving in 2001 (Just going off our fake dates for success) when the success is occurring. Or the big bucks are being offered.

I guess the time is now for us as a club to do our best to get it right. Nicks is saying all the right stuff, but whether he will follow through/has the ability/allowed to by the boys club/has the right people around him, I guess we will see.

 

[Dudersaurus]

My point was that with the benefit of hindsight, our 2017 Grand Final team lacked the top end class to win a flag. I can only think of one Premiership team in the last 20 years that didn’t have that core of absolute ELITE talent.

Eddie will be a Hall of Famer but he was starting to decline by the end of 2017 against the very best teams. Charlie might develop into a Hall of Famer but he was only showing glimpses in 2017 (how many posters said pick 12 from Brisbane was a steal). In contrast, Martin, Cotchin, Riewoldt and Rance were at the peak of their powers.

I have never suggested that Pyke was in the same league as Clarkson as a coach but imho he squeezed out some great performances from a bunch of good but not great footballers in 2016 and 2017. It was clear last season that he was as confused as our players and didn’t know how to stop the decline.

Changing coaches has not improved the quality of our squad and keeping Greenwood, CEY, Keath and Jenkins may have allowed us to be a bit more competitive but we would still be a bottom six team (Douglas, Otten, Betts and Jacobs would not have made any difference).

The HoF issue is a bit of a nothing. There was a whole discussion about how it gets handed out for tenure rather than brilliance.

There areas several of our guys not unreasonably likely to make HoF if they hit 300 and rack up a few more AA.

 

[kirky]

I think GWS and Gold Coast have a LOT more young talent than Port.

Agree but it seems everyone thinks the decade of dominance by the Power is about to happen.

 

[Mutineer]

But you need to see development and improvements in individuals

Over the last 2 years of our experienced guys....something is not right, maybe our fitness and conditioning?

Walker - declined
Milera - declined
Smith - declined
Laird - declined
Sloane - declined
M Crouch - declined
Seedsman - declined
Gallucci - declined
Gibbs - wtf
Lynch - so so
Talia - so so

Jake Kelly and ROB about the only ones that have got better IMO.

Others not in our best 22 I feel Poholke improved considerably in the SANFL as have some of the younger brigade.

 

[cleanhands]

Over the last 2 years of our experienced guys....something is not right, maybe our fitness and conditioning?

Walker - declined
Milera - declined
Smith - declined
Laird - declined
Sloane - declined
M Crouch - declined
Seedsman - declined
Gallucci - declined
Gibbs - wtf
Lynch - so so
Talia - so so

Jake Kelly and ROB about the only ones that have got better IMO.

Others not in our best 22 I feel Poholke improved considerably in the SANFL as have some of the younger brigade.

ROB and Kelly are the only ones I can think of that line has gone up

 

[SaltPeter]

Agree but it seems everyone thinks the decade of dominance by the Power is about to happen.

Port have got about 10 players in their best 25 already over 29 on their list. With players like Motlop and McKenzie not far behind. They've probably got this year and next to have a crack then they'll probably start to slide a bit. Their team without Jonas, Harlett, Ebert, Gray, Boak, Rockliff, Dixon, Westhof that played us last week will look considerably different. Watts will be 30 next year as well.

It's hard to see a decade of dominance.

Seem to have a few reasonable younger players coming through, and they'll probably pick up a few f/s in the next couple years though.

 

[Sack Chapman]

The Hawthorn era was built around a small group of ELITE, once in a generation players; Hodge, Mitchell, Franklin, Rioli, Burgoyne will all be inducted into the Hall of Fame with Hodge and Franklin future Legends.

Who in our 2017 Grand Final side will be Hall of Famers?

Clarkson has been an outstanding coach but he has also had the cattle. It made sense for Hawthorn to recruit very good role players to remain in contention but they are now a middle of the road team despite recruiting some very good players like Mitchell, Winguard and O’Meara.

Chris Scott was a supercoach in 2011 but not so much once he lost the core of elite players (Bartel, Johnson, Scarlett, Chapman = at least three Hall of Famers)

We did rip Richmond apart last year (without Cotchin, Riewoldt and Rance).

Blighty was an amazing coach but what do Rucciuto, McLeod, Hart, Jarman, Goodwin and Bickley have in common?

To change the subject for a minute. The good old days. Excluding the players who have left, who in the last 20 years could we consider consistently elite like the guys you mention. Rutten, Betts......

Elite talent can hide a lot of flaws in a clubs culture and leadership.

Take out Ports talent from the 2018 draft and things look bleak again.

 

[Dudersaurus]

To change the subject for a minute. The good old days. Excluding the players who have left, who in the last 20 years could we consider consistently elite like the guys you mention. Rutten, Betts......

Elite talent can hide a lot of flaws in a clubs culture and leadership.

Take out Ports talent from the 2018 draft and things look bleak again.

Meh, if you take the good parts of anything, the leftovers look fairly poor.

 

[Truck25]

Agree but it seems everyone thinks the decade of dominance by the Power is about to happen.

This decade of dominance comes about ever 3-4 years

 

[CrowsB4hoes]

Do Port have this now with Butters, Rozee and Duursma?

Port have only had 1 good draft year (and it was outstanding).

Every other year they have recruited duds. At a stretch, 2016 was decent for Marshall, and Powell Pepper at least plays, but I don't think either of them have kicked on like people were expecting a few years back. (Remember Powell Pepper was gonna be the next Dusty?)

 

[1970crow]

Over the last 2 years of our experienced guys....something is not right, maybe our fitness and conditioning?

Walker - declined
Milera - declined
Smith - declined
Laird - declined
Sloane - declined
M Crouch - declined
Seedsman - declined
Gallucci - declined
Gibbs - wtf
Lynch - so so
Talia - so so

Jake Kelly and ROB about the only ones that have got better IMO.

Others not in our best 22 I feel Poholke improved considerably in the SANFL as have some of the younger brigade.

Gearing back from overcooking and getting it right is a pretty difficult task. Especially for incompetents that overcooked them in the first place. And that's before we even consider the fact that a lot of players would have lost the keen edge for the contest that's required to be a successful team. Mostly the senior players look like they're going through the motions awaiting the inevitable end to their contract/retirement or forced out by trade. These players half checked out mentally as soon as Pyke and co blamed them entirely for the GF loss. The rest was gone when he bought CM back after agreeing to end our relationship with them. You can't come back from that as a coach. And it looks like the club can't get the players back either.

 

[Sack Chapman]

Meh, if you take the good parts of anything, the leftovers look fairly poor.

Thanks.Very insightful.

 

[CrowinNT]

Over the last 2 years of our experienced guys....something is not right, maybe our fitness and conditioning?

Walker - declined
Milera - declined
Smith - declined
Laird - declined
Sloane - declined
M Crouch - declined
Seedsman - declined
Gallucci - declined
Gibbs - wtf
Lynch - so so
Talia - so so

Jake Kelly and ROB about the only ones that have got better IMO.

Others not in our best 22 I feel Poholke improved considerably in the SANFL as have some of the younger brigade.

Nailed it