List Mgmt. 2020 Trade Thread - Part IV

[StCicatriz]

Is Cam Guthrie a star? He's an AA midfielder, Leon Davis is a premiership player too. Doesn't take 22 stars to win a premiership. We all know Dan Butler should've been aa ahead of him and I don't think we'd all argue Dan is a star either.

My point is that in the entire time since Watters was here if we can list 1.5 wafl players who became stars. Not exactly like we missed the makings of a premiership team in 2012 when all these players have only surged into the spotlight since 2017.

Did you take into account the draft as well?

What I was saying is that the idea of hitting the state league especially WA had merit the problem is they just went after the wrong players and then abandoned it only to revise it again with some mixed success.

If we stayed the course we could have netted more best 22 players.

No one was saying that method alone would build a premiership side. Thats foolish.

But the method had merit and something Geelong and wce invested in with success.

 

[sammm]

Someone being a premiership player doesn't make them a star.

Take Marlion Pickett

 

[sammm]

Just about all of these kids are young aboriginal boys , just a shame because most are more skilled than most - I would bring in a mentor with the kids and try and get them into a different crowd and keep them occupied , someone like a Eddie Betts , Andrew Krakouer - something has to be done because these kids will likely completely go off the rails because most don't have anything to fall back on.
I would definitely look at bringing these boys into predraft teams (well before a year before the draft and make it not just for the elite kids) and prepare them for the rigors of becoming a elite athlete - diet , training and dealing with basic living - rent , budgeting and work experience / set up somehow through the AFL / WAFL / SAFL
I feel the parents can't control them or the parents have failed them and hopefully some mentor who they may worship like a Betts , Krakouer , Winmar type might be able to keep them in line.
I really feel something has to be done , de-listing the kid is not really helping anyone and certainly not the young lad who will be far mentally worse off from when he was recruited.

Have I got this wrong I don't know but seeing what is going on too many of these young lads will never be given a fair crack.
In the end teams will only be recruiting from colleges because they don't want any risk.

These days, It would probably look racist

 

[Crusty Undies]

Did you take into account the draft as well?

What I was saying is that the idea of hitting the state league especially WA had merit the problem is they just went after the wrong players and then abandoned it only to revise it again with some mixed success.

If we stayed the course we could have netted more best 22 players.

No one was saying that method alone would build a premiership side. Thats foolish.

But the method had merit and something Geelong and wce invested in with success.

Yeah agreed but I just think you're overplaying it a bit tbh, we've known for a while that state league players can be astute pick ups, Wilkie and Marshall for us for example are now 2 of our best 22. Just saying to specifically focus on WA state leagues when it is numerically one of the smallest states with simultaneously the largest area to cover to expose scouts to form is just sometimes not entirely practical. Not to mention the problems Kelly and many other indigenous boys had with leaving WA for an East Coast team.

 

[Jay Beast]

Just about all of these kids are young aboriginal boys , just a shame because most are more skilled than most - I would bring in a mentor with the kids and try and get them into a different crowd and keep them occupied , someone like a Eddie Betts , Andrew Krakouer - something has to be done because these kids will likely completely go off the rails because most don't have anything to fall back on.
I would definitely look at bringing these boys into predraft teams (well before a year before the draft and make it not just for the elite kids) and prepare them for the rigors of becoming a elite athlete - diet , training and dealing with basic living - rent , budgeting and work experience / set up somehow through the AFL / WAFL / SAFL
I feel the parents can't control them or the parents have failed them and hopefully some mentor who they may worship like a Betts , Krakouer , Winmar type might be able to keep them in line.
I really feel something has to be done , de-listing the kid is not really helping anyone and certainly not the young lad who will be far mentally worse off from when he was recruited.

Have I got this wrong I don't know but seeing what is going on too many of these young lads will never be given a fair crack.
In the end teams will only be recruiting from colleges because they don't want any risk.

It is a good idea. If it can be done while they are in their communities rather than outside it would be a stronger, more beneficial example.

 

[Premium]

Yeah agreed but I just think you're overplaying it a bit tbh, we've known for a while that state league players can be astute pick ups, Wilkie and Marshall for us for example are now 2 of our best 22. Just saying to specifically focus on WA state leagues when it is numerically one of the smallest states with simultaneously the largest area to cover to expose scouts to form is just sometimes not entirely practical. Not to mention the problems Kelly and many other indigenous boys had with leaving WA for an East Coast team.

You just have to have good scouts who look through every state league - now we have a recruiter who has played in a state league and AFL so he has very good contacts.

 

[BrutThough]

Take Marlion Pickett

Or half the Richmond side who are nothing more than role players yet have 3 premierships to their name.

 

[King_Steele]

Or half the Richmond side who are nothing more than role players yet have 3 premierships to their name.

Brisbane/Geelong golden era would smash Richmond - heck I’d even back in our 09/10 team.

04/05 would smash them aswell

 

[BrutThough]

Brisbane/Geelong golden era would smash Richmond - heck I’d even back in our 09/10 team.

04/05 would smash them aswell

I'd back that Geelong 07-11 group to beat any of the other recent dynasty teams.

They batted so deep it was ridiculous.

 

[King_Steele]

I'd back that Geelong 07-11 group to beat any of the other recent dynasty teams.

They batted so deep it was ridiculous.

Agreed. They had like 14 all Australians in 2007

edit - 9

 

[BrutThough]

Agreed. They had like 14 all Australians in 2007

Half of them will probably end up AFL Hall of Famers too.

They might not have ever gone back-to-back but they were such an impressive team.

Plus, I think they were completing against better teams at the end of their dynasty too - Us in 09-10 and Collingwood 10-11 were two of the best sides this millennium. Really an incredible period of football.

 

[StCicatriz]

Yeah agreed but I just think you're overplaying it a bit tbh, we've known for a while that state league players can be astute pick ups, Wilkie and Marshall for us for example are now 2 of our best 22. Just saying to specifically focus on WA state leagues when it is numerically one of the smallest states with simultaneously the largest area to cover to expose scouts to form is just sometimes not entirely practical. Not to mention the problems Kelly and many other indigenous boys had with leaving WA for an East Coast team.

What do you mean largest area to scout? The whole system is designed around the metro area which was formed at the beginning of the last century!

Guessing here but outside of peel you could see every game within a 60km radius!

Look at the outcome from using a 2nd rounder on Kelly.... you wouldn't want that?

 

[gringo2011]

Agreed. They had like 14 all Australians in 2007

edit - 9

It's an interesting question. Today, there is a huge difference in football strategy and set up. I think we were probably the closest thing to a team of today with players role playing and holding structural positions rather than individual brilliance. Geelong still played a lot more of a traditional set up with individuals winning positions. It's always hard to compare sides from different eras because so much changes.

Lockett might have had trouble getting 2 or 3 goals game today with zones chopping off his ability to get separation and run to space for example. Players in the 50s could play as CHFs even when they were short-arses etc. Richmond have a game style that would bother teams from any era and their frenetic pace makes them a nightmare to match up on. Is it enough to beat a team of champions? Who knows.

To me Richmond is an incredible side because they are still young and no-one has strategised them out of their advantage still. They could still win another couple in this dynasty which would put them up there with the best lists of any era. Even the Hawks say that the GWS and GC sides coming in stopped other sides nipping at their heals. Geelong must have been partially aided by that too being a strong side of that era that didn't bottom out.

 

[falkstar]

Is Cam Guthrie a star? He's an AA midfielder, Leon Davis is a premiership player too. Doesn't take 22 stars to win a premiership. We all know Dan Butler should've been aa ahead of him and I don't think we'd all argue Dan is a star either.

My point is that in the entire time since Watters was here if we can list 1.5 wafl players who became stars. Not exactly like we missed the makings of a premiership team in 2012 when all these players have only surged into the spotlight since 2017.

leon Davis didn’t play in a flag. Was dropped from the draw.

 

[BrutThough]

It's an interesting question. Today, there is a huge difference in football strategy and set up. I think we were probably the closest thing to a team of today with players role playing and holding structural positions rather than individual brilliance. Geelong still played a lot more of a traditional set up with individuals winning positions. It's always hard to compare sides from different eras because so much changes.

Lockett might have had trouble getting 2 or 3 goals game today with zones chopping off his ability to get separation and run to space for example. Players in the 50s could play as CHFs even when they were short-arses etc. Richmond have a game style that would bother teams from any era and their frenetic pace makes them a nightmare to match up on. Is it enough to beat a team of champions? Who knows.

To me Richmond is an incredible side because they are still young and no-one has strategised them out of their advantage still. They could still win another couple in this dynasty which would put them up there with the best lists of any era. Even the Hawks say that the GWS and GC sides coming in stopped other sides nipping at their heals. Geelong must have been partially aided by that too being a strong side of that era that didn't bottom out.

What makes Geelong even more impressive to me is that Ablett - the best player in the competition - left after the 2010 season but they still went on to win the 2011 flag.

Richmond would struggle without Dusty.

 

[gringo2011]

What makes Geelong even more impressive to me is that Ablett - the best player in the competition - left after the 2010 season but they still went on to win the 2011 flag.

Richmond would struggle without Dusty.

That's true. Ablett was probably not as vital as Dusty then though. I think he'd be like losing Stevie J and Abblett he's so dominant. Geelong had a great leg up in that era from father/sons as did the Dogs. A few little advantages can make a huge difference to a sides fortunes. The AFL changed the rules because of Hawkins going in the late 40s despite being a top 10 pick and introduced the bidding system the next year. Scarlett, Hawkins and Ablett nearly free made a huge difference to their fortunes in that era. The odds of finding 3 absolute guns as FS in one era are so incredibly lucky.

 

[BrutThough]

That's true. Ablett was probably not as vital as Dusty then though. I think he'd be like losing Stevie J and Abblett he's so dominant. Geelong had a great leg up in that era from father/sons as did the Dogs. A few little advantages can make a huge difference to a sides fortunes. The AFL changed the rules because of Hawkins going in the late 40s despite being a top 10 pick and introduced the bidding system the next year. Scarlett, Hawkins and Ablett nearly free made a huge difference to their fortunes in that era. The odds of finding 3 absolute guns as FS in one era are so incredibly lucky.

The father son rule was just another thing working against us winning a flag in 09/10. The two memorable moments from the 09 granny were both off the back of their father sons. Then Cloke and Shaw in 10 were big for Collingwood as well.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

He's a good small forward who can do some very flashy things. He's not a star.

Yeah but he’s got a rhyming nickname!

Automatic star status with that!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[saint66au]

The father son rule was just another thing working against us winning a flag in 09/10. The two memorable moments from the 09 granny were both off the back of their father sons. Then Cloke and Shaw in 10 were big for Collingwood as well.

The fact that in 2009 we were 13-0 ....and then played another side who were 13-0..showed how stiff we were to have another superstar side in the same era as us.

The Saints side of 2009 needed to be playing in 2005-2007 before the Geelong dynasty peaked

 

[BrutThough]

The fact that in 2009 we were 13-0 ....and then played another side who were 13-0..showed how stiff we were to have another superstar side in the same era as us.

The Saints side of 2009 needed to be playing in 2005-2007 before the Geelong dynasty peaked

Typical St Kilda bad luck.

 

[gringo2011]

The fact that in 2009 we were 13-0 ....and then played another side who were 13-0..showed how stiff we were to have another superstar side in the same era as us.

The Saints side of 2009 needed to be playing in 2005-2007 before the Geelong dynasty peaked

The psychological advantage winning a GF makes can't be underestimated either. If Richmond hadn't won the first one the next couple probably wouldn't have happened, not to mention attracting Lynch to them. Sides that win one are mentally primed for another crack IMO. If we'd got past Port in 2005 you can only imagine what could have been.

 

[Keg still on legs]

The psychological advantage winning a GF makes can't be underestimated either. If Richmond hadn't won the first one the next couple probably wouldn't have happened, not to mention attracting Lynch to them. Sides that win one are mentally primed for another crack IMO. If we'd got past Port in 2005 you can only imagine what could have been.

Particularly for a club with a long gap between flags. You need to get the monkey off the back.

Once you do that you play with a degree of freedom and knowledge that your systems work. I firmly believe that's what happened for the cats once they finally won one.

 

[Ekomaira]

Can feel it.

Someone big has been lined up for the 2021 FA period.

what makes ya say that mate

 

[Grav]

Sean Darcy

4

Sean Darcy

Age

25

Ht

203cm

Wt

111kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.1

3star

K

3.4

1star

HB

6.6

4star

CL

2.4

4star

HO

28.8

5star

D

6.8

1star

K

2.0

1star

HB

4.8

3star

CL

1.8

4star

HO

20.3

5star

D

11.4

3star

K

4.6

2star

HB

6.8

5star

CL

2.6

5star

HO

32.0

5star

..... someone big & lined up, yeah, nah he’s contracted til end of 2022.

 

[sammm]

Typical St Kilda bad luck.

we seem to always have bad luck- injuries at the wrong time, other teams with star players, etc