2021 Non-Crows AFL Discussion Part 1: we can have lots of fun!

[moogerfooger]

Don’t give up on us. We haven’t started playing the good teams yet.

Bottom 2 or 3 very achievable

Absolutely. We can't afford to finish higher. Even Nicks admitted that soreness is an issue in the group. Soreness + half the team under 10 games = we're slowly walking into a meat grinder.

 

[Cap]

So do we support Carlton for the lols at Port or Port for the lols at Carlton?

Who will give us the bigger lols ?

 

[FR0GGY]

So do we support Carlton for the lols at Port or Port for the lols at Carlton?

Who will give us the bigger lols ?

Support Carlton for the bigger lols

 

[Bearded Clam]

True that. Saints, North, GWS, and Gold Coast. All could go tomorrow and you wouldn't miss them.

Id like to see 4 teams in melbourne.. the big four obviously.. plus Geelong in Geelong.. so 5 victorian teams.

2 teams in qld, 2 teams in NSW, 2 teams in WA.. basically states with populations that can support two teams.

1 team in SA.. the fact that port are 12 million in debt and need to have a heap of tarps in storage at all times shows SA and its population cant support two sides.

Obviously two of the teams cut can be given the option to merge with GWS and the suns.. Gold Coast Kangaroos or GWS Saints maybe?..

so 12 teams all up in the comp.. 24 rounds to the main season, each team plays twice.

each team has 60 players on their list (Salary Cap adjusted accordingly).. and has a reserves side that plays in a nation comp.. that reserve comp shadows the main comp. so, as an example, if crows play sydney in sydney then both crows teams fly to sydney and play the reserves game as a pregame to the main game..

the players from the six teams removed from the comp obviously get drafted off, in a specially held draft, to the 12 remaining teams.

each team gets to pay their two best players outside the cap.. without a limitation on the amount they can be payed.. which would hopefully evenly spread the 24 best players across all the clubs and rewards the superstars of the game that everyone turns up to watch.

IMO this would result in closer, more exciting games and stronger competition overall.. and put even more bums on seats both at stadiums and on couches..

 

[FullyBigKPro]

Absolutely. We can't afford to finish higher. Even Nicks admitted that soreness is an issue in the group. Soreness + half the team under 10 games = we're slowly walking into a meat grinder.

We play I think Port/Richmond/Melbourne/West coast over a month - would be staggered if we win any of those games.

 

[Scorpus]

Id like to see 4 teams in melbourne.. the big four obviously.. plus Geelong in Geelong.. so 5 victorian teams.

2 teams in qld, 2 teams in NSW, 2 teams in WA.. basically states with populations that can support two teams.

1 team in SA.. the fact that port are 12 million in debt and need to have a heap of tarps in storage at all times shows SA and its population cant support two sides.

Obviously two of the teams cut can be given the option to merge with GWS and the suns.. Gold Coast Kangaroos or GWS Saints maybe?..

so 12 teams all up in the comp.. 24 rounds to the main season, each team plays twice.

each team has 60 players on their list (Salary Cap adjusted accordingly).. and has a reserves side that plays in a nation comp.. that reserve comp shadows the main comp. so, as an example, if crows play sydney in sydney then both crows teams fly to sydney and play the reserves game as a pregame to the main game..

the players from the six teams removed from the comp obviously get drafted off, in a specially held draft, to the 12 remaining teams.

each team gets to pay their two best players outside the cap.. with limitation on the amount they can be payed.. which would hopefully evenly spread the 24 best players across all the clubs and rewards the superstars of the game that everyone turns up to watch.

IMO this would result in closer, more exciting games and stronger competition overall.. and put even more bums on seats both at stadiums and on couches..

This would be absolutely amazing. However I'd keep two teams in SA and add one in Tasmania for 14 teams.

26 round main season, no byes, top 6 make finals

 

[Truck25]

This would be absolutely amazing. However I'd keep two teams in SA and add one in Tasmania for 14 teams.

26 round main season, no byes, top 6 make finals

Yep, Hawks move to Tassie. No way as much as we'd like to see the pear disappear will they go down to 1 team in SA, they want a game a week at Adelaide oval.

 

[Thetrader15]

This would be absolutely amazing. However I'd keep two teams in SA and add one in Tasmania for 14 teams.

26 round main season, no byes, top 6 make finals

I'd keep two teams in SA as well.

 

[Golumless]

Id like to see 4 teams in melbourne.. the big four obviously.. plus Geelong in Geelong.. so 5 victorian teams.

2 teams in qld, 2 teams in NSW, 2 teams in WA.. basically states with populations that can support two teams.

1 team in SA.. the fact that port are 12 million in debt and need to have a heap of tarps in storage at all times shows SA and its population cant support two sides.

Obviously two of the teams cut can be given the option to merge with GWS and the suns.. Gold Coast Kangaroos or GWS Saints maybe?..

so 12 teams all up in the comp.. 24 rounds to the main season, each team plays twice.

each team has 60 players on their list (Salary Cap adjusted accordingly).. and has a reserves side that plays in a nation comp.. that reserve comp shadows the main comp. so, as an example, if crows play sydney in sydney then both crows teams fly to sydney and play the reserves game as a pregame to the main game..

the players from the six teams removed from the comp obviously get drafted off, in a specially held draft, to the 12 remaining teams.

each team gets to pay their two best players outside the cap.. with limitation on the amount they can be payed.. which would hopefully evenly spread the 24 best players across all the clubs and rewards the superstars of the game that everyone turns up to watch.

IMO this would result in closer, more exciting games and stronger competition overall.. and put even more bums on seats both at stadiums and on couches..

You'd need to have two teams in SA, and really, the state has the population to support two at 1.6 million. Plus, as much as admitting Port Adelaide was a ****up, it is one of the best rivalry matches in the AFL.

Though, really, none of that would result in a closer competition and more exciting games. The benefit would just be in having a league that's become a more national competition in identity, instead of the hodgepodge of Victorian teams + friends it is now. In terms of what it'd result in the national league, it'd end up being the same as it now, but with fewer teams and less money due to TV rights (which is the AFL main money spinner). Why it wouldn't move the needle at all is you're working on the assumption that drafting is the most important thing with developing good sides, where reality has shown, it isn't even close to the importance it is assigned. The most important thing is having your shit sorted off-field, and no matter how many clubs are in the league, whether its 4, 8, 12, 200 etc, there are always going to be teams who have taken their eyes off the ball financially, who have hired a Burton like character in key roles, who are just continuous **** ups (i.e. Melbourne and St.Kilda). You'll never be able to stop that from occurring.

The 60 player lists are too many. 52-54 is likely the sweet spot, as it gives 8-10 players who are covering injuries. Reserves competition is a much-needed addition to the league, as much as it'd end up a money pit just to give more control to the AFL sides to develop players. I also completely disagree with having a teams star players out of the cap, if you can't afford to keep them in the cap, you don't have them. Having them out would just skew it more so teams in a window get better, teams who are rebuilding are continuously getting picked off, as you're offering an easier way for stars to have their cake and eat it too. Free agency has not been a path for bad teams to get better and this would just be enhancing that.

The other issue you have to face with having a league where everyone is competitive is the salary cap, as it forces the draft to be the main vessel to developing a good team, and teams need to have bad seasons to get that influx of high-end talent in (even if it is like us where we burned our list down in 2019-20 just to refresh it with youth). It's worse if you get rid of it, seeing then it just becomes a case of who is richer. In terms of competitiveness, the AFL isn't that bad off, if it could break that trend of premiership teams winning multiple, instead of one or two at most, it'd be in a very healthy place. However, that is a problem most leagues face to a degree.

 

[Bearded Clam]

Yep, Hawks move to Tassie. No way as much as we'd like to see the pear disappear will they go down to 1 team in SA, they want a game a week at Adelaide oval.

Is there the crowds/support in Tassie to have a team there permenantly would be the question??... im not so sure there is..

and teams that currently cant prove they can turn over a profit and sustain themself (poort) need to be culled..

has Adelaide got the population for two teams?..

Perth pop - 2.1m
Sydney pop - 5.3m
Brisbane/gold coast pop - 2.7m
Melbourne pop - 5.1m

adelaide - 1.3m

the states/city’s with more than 2m are the ones that should have more than 1 club at this point.

 

[Betts are off]

Is there the crowds/support in Tassie to have a team there permenantly would be the question??... im not so sure there is..

and teams that currently cant prove they can turn over a profit and sustain themself (poort) need to be culled..

has Adelaide got the population for two teams?..

Perth pop - 2.1m
Sydney pop - 5.3m
Brisbane/gold coast pop - 2.7m
Melbourne pop - 5.1m

adelaide - 1.3m

the states with more than 2m are the ones that should have more than 1 club at this point.

Not too sure that math checks out mate, because you can probably divide the Sydney and Brisbane population by at least 4. I live in NSW and I can guarantee you 3 out of every 4 people couldn't care less about AFL up here, and that's being generous!

Where-as Adelaide's 1.3m would contain somewhere between 1-1.2m die hard fans.

 

[Vader]

All bar Danger happened 10 years ago.

Jeremy Cameron wasn't 10 years ago either.

 

[Bearded Clam]

You'd need to have two teams in SA, and really, the state has the population to support two at 1.6 million. Plus, as much as admitting Port Adelaide was a fu**up, it is one of the best rivalry matches in the AFL.

Though, really, none of that would result in a closer competition and more exciting games. The benefit would just be in having a league that's become a more national competition in identity, instead of the hodgepodge of Victorian teams + friends it is now. In terms of what it'd result in the national league, it'd end up being the same as it now, but with fewer teams and less money due to TV rights (which is the AFL main money spinner). Why it wouldn't move the needle at all is you're working on the assumption that drafting is the most important thing with developing good sides, where reality has shown, it isn't even close to the importance it is assigned. The most important thing is having your sh*t sorted off-field, and no matter how many clubs are in the league, whether its 4, 8, 12, 200 etc, there are always going to be teams who have taken their eyes off the ball financially, who have hired a Burton like character in key roles, who are just continuous fu** ups (i.e. Melbourne and St.Kilda). You'll never be able to stop that from occurring.

The 60 player lists are too many. 52-54 is likely the sweet spot, as it gives 8-10 players who are covering injuries. Reserves competition is a much-needed addition to the league, as much as it'd end up a money pit just to give more control to the AFL sides to develop players. I also completely disagree with having a teams star players out of the cap, if you can't afford to keep them in the cap, you don't have them. Having them out would just skew it more so teams in a window get better, teams who are rebuilding are continuously getting picked off, as you're offering an easier way for stars to have their cake and eat it too.

The biggest issue you have to face with having a league where everyone is competitive is the salary cap, as it forces the draft to be the main vessel to developing a good team, and teams need to have bad seasons to get that influx of high-end talent in (even if it is like us where we burned our list down in 2019-20 just to refresh it with youth). It's worse if you get rid of it, seeing then it just becomes a case of who is richer. In terms of competitiveness, the AFL isn't that bad off, if it could break that trend of premiership teams winning multiple, instead of one or two at most, but that is a problem most leagues face to a degree, and is likely to be just luck.

So you agree with some ideas and disagree with others.. thats fine.

on your burton point.. less clubs means less opportunty for duds like burton to get a role in the first place..

something needs to be done about the “too many teams in Victoria” issue..

 

[FR0GGY]

Imagine players all the players wanting to go back to Victoria with only 4 teams there!

 

[GrommoT]

Don’t give up on us. We haven’t started playing the good teams yet.

Bottom 2 or 3 very achievable

Hmm... the next 3 weeks are going to be telling. After Freo, we have the Hawks and GWS and we could conceivably win all 3 - bottom 3 will then be hard to reach. We're gonna be kept afloat by a sea of muck.

In any case, finishing with a top 5-10 pick might be ok anyway - after Horne, there look to be a bunch of Vic Metro/WA mids who will be the rated players.

 

[Bearded Clam]

Not too sure that math checks out mate, because you can probably divide the Sydney and Brisbane population by at least 4. I live in NSW and I can guarantee you 3 out of every 4 people couldn't care less about AFL up here, and that's being generous!

Where-as Adelaide's 1.3m would contain somewhere between 1-1.2m die hard fans.

And yet port still cant seem to fill the AO even when their team is performing well and up the top of the ladder.. on top of being in debt and constantly wanting a handout/bailout...

ok, I’m not exactly sure of NSW and will take your word for it on it.. but up here in qld theres definately a fair bit of interest in the AFL and its growing year by year.. but the place has been populated by a massive amount of expat vico’s, south aussies and WA crew over the past 20-30 years..

 

[Bearded Clam]

Imagine players all the players wanting to go back to Victoria with only 4 teams there!

Thats another advantage to reducing the amount of melbourne teams I was gonna mention but didnt get around to it in my initial comment..

would improve the effect of the draft..

and less clubs so less father/son opportunities and less NGA issues..

 

[Golumless]

So you agree with some ideas and disagree with others.. thats fine.

on your burton point.. less clubs means less opportunty for duds like burton to get a role in the first place..

something needs to be done about the “too many teams in Victoria” issue..

When there is a will, there is a way. No league has ever been able to curb out the horribly mismanaged teams, or those people like Burton to end up in key roles.

There are things like the reserves teams which I do agree with, just because it feels like a way to enhance how professional the league is, and most of these structures already exist for a large portion of teams. Culling teams, I don't, because that just takes money out of the game. If anything, the league should be expanding out to 22 teams, solidifying Tasmania as a football base, and really trying to take more market share off rugby in Sydney and QLD to enhance its own identity as the national sport in Australia, and, eventually having one or two in New Zealand and really push to being the dominant sport in Oceania. That's likely an "in the next century" kind of deal and not near future.

Really, those Victorian teams who have become redundant should eventually relocate. Teams like Saints, North, Demons, maybe the Dogs. I don't think you could touch the rest though. Of course, that is much easier said then done, seeing how North fought off relocation to the Gold Coast. Hawks and Demons merger broke down etc.

 

[Betts are off]

And yet port still cant seem to fill the AO even when their team is performing well and up the top of the ladder.. on top of being in debt and constantly wanting a handout/bailout...

ok, I’m not exactly sure of NSW and will take your word for it on it.. but up here in qld theres definately a fair bit of interest in the AFL and its growing year by year.. but the place has been populated by a massive amount of expat vico’s, south aussies and WA crew over the past 20-30 years..

I'm not a Port apologist, but I don't think its really fair to say they can't fill the stadium at the moment. Crowds are returning to grounds slowly across the country right now. Doesn't look like any stadium or club is regularly reaching capacity crowds in 2021.

AFL Results & Attendances | Austadiums

List of recent AFL results and scores, including attendance figures.

www.austadiums.com

Bottom line, I don't pretend to be an expert on this, but I just think its more complex then simple city population.

 

[FR0GGY]

Thats another advantage to reducing the amount of melbourne teams I was gonna mention but didnt get around to it in my initial comment..

would improve the effect of the draft..

and less clubs so less father/son opportunities and less NGA issues..

I was thinking of it as a disadvantage.
Less teams in Melbourne mean more Vic mummies boys playing away and wanting to come home.

 

[Bearded Clam]

I'm not a Port apologist, but I don't think its really fair to say they can't fill the stadium at the moment. Crowds are returning to grounds slowly across the country right now. Doesn't look like any stadium or club is regularly reaching capacity crowds in 2021.

AFL Results & Attendances | Austadiums

List of recent AFL results and scores, including attendance figures.

www.austadiums.com

Bottom line, I don't pretend to be an expert on this, but I just think its more complex then simple city population.

They couldnt fill the AO pre covid.. so stop making excuses for them Betts!..

 

[Bearded Clam]

I was thinking of it as a disadvantage.
Less teams in Melbourne mean more Vic mummies boys playing away and wanting to come home.

Less clubs means.. Less opportunities for them to be able to get back home though..

 

[Betts are off]

They couldnt fill the AO pre covid.. so stop making excuses for them Betts!..

You mean when they finished 10th?

 

[FR0GGY]

Less clubs means.. Less opportunities for them to be able to get back home though..

True, but still think there'd be more quality playing away that want to go home, clubs would find a way to fit them in.

 

[aabp1978]

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