List Mgmt. 2021 Trade Thread - Part I

George · Aug 22, 2021

Delisted;
-

Traded;
-

Retired;
Jake Carlisle
Shaun McKernan

Current Players Out of Contract;
3. Zak Jones - Link
6. Sebastian Ross (RFA) - Link
7. Luke Dunstan (RFA) - Link
13. Jack Lonie - Link
15. Jack Billings (RFA) - Link
18. Patrick Ryder - Link
24. James Frawley - Link
25. Dean Kent - Link
38. Oscar Clavarino - Link
39. Darragh Joyce - Link
41. Paul Hunter - Link
42. Max Heath - Link
45. Sam Alabakis - Link

To see the full list (it gets updated regularly) visit this thread;

List & Contract Status

SENIOR LIST 1. Jack Higgins 2. Marcus Windhager 3. Zak Jones 4. Lance Collard 5. Brad Crouch 6. Sebastian Ross 7. Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera 8. Bradley Hill 9. Jack Steele 10. Mitchito Owens 11. Hunter Clark 12. Max King 13. Ryan Byrnes 14. Liam Stocker 15. Paddy Dow 16. Daniel Butler 17. Isaac...

www.bigfooty.com

stavro#4 · Jun 8, 2021

bird_man said:
I did have a look at this at the same time as running the other numbers.

I can't remember the exact numbers but from memory we had less than most of the top teams including Melbourne, Richmond, Port, Bulldogs, Brisbane

Probably says we need to hit the draft hard this year as there's a clear gap that has opened up after the 2017 draft.

Which was the messaging from lethers.

without having looked at it myself. Was it a huge improvement compared to the initial comparison?

gringo2011 · Jun 8, 2021

gringo2011 said:
So after ARR said I'm depressing and that I should send a letter to the club I took his advice and I wrote Bassat an email trying to get my point across as to what areas I thought might need working on. My 2 hours of careful well thought out and edited letter-writing didn't quite manage to get the hoped response but I still feel very privileged, the apprentice cleaner was unavailable and I just happened to get the a reasonably high profile lackey to send out the generic response email. Suck sh*t Joffa they love me more.

Dear Timewaster,

Thank you for your email and long term support of the club.

As you can imagine we have received a number of responses from members with feedback, concern and suggestions for the club to improve. While we want to ensure that members' sentiments are passed through to the Andrew, he isn't in a position to read the volume of emails we have received nor personally respond to them. The membership team collate all consistent feedback received across emails and phone calls and circulate that back to him in a consolidated format as was done with your email. This allows him to hear consistent themes with members' concerns as a group while still giving him the ability and time to still focus his energy in the areas that will help drive the club towards success.

We believe this to be the most efficient and effective way for him to receive feedback and thank you for sharing your concerns. As supporters and the club administration, we all want to contribute to a more successful club on-field and everything done is focussed on that outcome.

If we can be of any further assistance, please let us know.

Kind regards,

Clinton F********
Head of Consumer Sales

Actually just properly read it for the first time...it refers to the President as "the Andrew". Love it. I want to be known as The Gringo.

gringo2011 · Jun 8, 2021

bird_man said:
I did have a look at this at the same time as running the other numbers.

I can't remember the exact numbers but from memory we had less than most of the top teams including Melbourne, Richmond, Port, Bulldogs, Brisbane

Probably says we need to hit the draft hard this year as there's a clear gap that has opened up after the 2017 draft.

We are meant to have some kids in the academy that might be worth listing this year. None are top end talent but it's a way to add some youth to the side on the cheap. Not having heaps of picks might mean we go into deficit though.

bird_man · Jun 8, 2021

stavro#4 said:
Which was the messaging for lethers.

without having looked at it myself. Was it a huge improvement compared to the initial comparison?

Not sure, I would have to have another look tonight.

The point I was trying to make at the time of going over those numbers was that there was a clear gap after the 2017 draft onwards and that we should have had more of a look at more 18 year olds in the last 2 drafts (We only took one last year and just 2 the year prior).

At the time the club were suggesting we'd take one selection if any in the MSD and I think it made more sense at least filling all our remaining list spots with kids, even if they were late selections.

No issue with the 22-25 year olds but we need more kids coming through as we are well behind the rest of the comp in that department.

Mat Mann · Jun 8, 2021

gringo2011 said:
We are meant to have some kids in the academy that might be worth listing this year. None are top end talent but it's a way to add some youth to the side on the cheap. Not having heaps of picks might mean we go into deficit though.

top end academy talent is toast now anyway 20 top this year and you can't match, top 40 next, except of course Northern Academy's they still get them for free

just a we see a crop of our own finally come through

#gosaintas · Jun 8, 2021

Mat Mann said:
top end academy talent is toast now anyway 20 top this year and you can't match, top 40 next, except of course Northern Academy's they still get them for free

just a we see a crop of our own finally come through

we don't have top end so it's still a good opportunity to fill the list spots

Mat Mann · Jun 8, 2021

#gosaintas said:
we don't have top end so it's still a good opportunity to fill the list spots

I hope a few fall into that 20-40 range.

this sides on the clock, 5 years before the 26-27y.o's hit decline and we badly need elite youth development to have a shot at a flag not just making finals

Desperate saint · Jun 8, 2021

gringo2011 said:
That is the issue, there is no older brigade, no younger brigade and our middlers aren't very high end. Other than that it's fine, it just isn't a premiership list. It looks half built and like it needs another 100 games to be what we want it to be. Youth will help longer term but the list doesn't have a lot of balance to it.

We have to hope that Clark, Coffield, Paton, King, Bytel and Byrnes all come on to be what we want them to be. Pretty much all hinges on that strata all coming on to a high level over the next 2 years.

Exactly

stavro#4 · Jun 8, 2021

bird_man said:
Not sure, I would have to have another look tonight.

The point I was trying to make at the time of going over those numbers was that there was a clear gap after the 2017 draft onwards and that we should have had more of a look at more 18 year olds in the last 2 drafts (We only took one last year and just 2 the year prior).

At the time the club were suggesting we'd take one selection if any in the MSD and I think it made more sense at least filling all our remaining list spots with kids, even if they were late selections.

No issue with the 22-25 year olds but we need more kids coming through as we are well behind the rest of the comp in that department.

I agree with you but I think what your analysis uncovered was a long-standing issue the club is working on.

prior it was the mid aged group that we had a huge gulf in. We have recruited a fair number in that 22-25 age range and the we look solid there but weak in the 18-21 space. Which we are in record as saying we will work on this year.

it’s also why I’m happy to let JB go. Take a good not great player from the 26-29 bracket. Bring in another kid in the 18-21 and they grow with the core that sit in 22-25.

the main point is, that what you found the club have already public ally acknowledged. Which is good

Joffaboy · Jun 8, 2021

gringo2011 said:
So after ARR said I'm depressing and that I should send a letter to the club I took his advice and I wrote Bassat an email trying to get my point across as to what areas I thought might need working on. My 2 hours of careful well thought out and edited letter-writing didn't quite manage to get the hoped response but I still feel very privileged, the apprentice cleaner was unavailable and I just happened to get the a reasonably high profile lackey to send out the generic response email. Suck sh*t Joffa they love me more.

Dear Timewaster,

Thank you for your email and long term support of the club.

As you can imagine we have received a number of responses from members with feedback, concern and suggestions for the club to improve. While we want to ensure that members' sentiments are passed through to the Andrew, he isn't in a position to read the volume of emails we have received nor personally respond to them. The membership team collate all consistent feedback received across emails and phone calls and circulate that back to him in a consolidated format as was done with your email. This allows him to hear consistent themes with members' concerns as a group while still giving him the ability and time to still focus his energy in the areas that will help drive the club towards success.

We believe this to be the most efficient and effective way for him to receive feedback and thank you for sharing your concerns. As supporters and the club administration, we all want to contribute to a more successful club on-field and everything done is focussed on that outcome.

If we can be of any further assistance, please let us know.

Kind regards,

Clinton F********
Head of Consumer Sales

Pfft, at least with the trainee receptionist, I knew where I stand and the club was honest.

Ahh **** off whinger yours the traineee receptionist

Diehard Saint · Jun 8, 2021

Ephemeral Hope said:
Max-imum effort as a Heath wave arrives at the Saints

St Kilda's mid-season rookie draft pick Max Heath is anything but affable on the field.

www.aflplayers.com.au

Sounds like a competitive mongrel type. His favourite thing to do is put kids into the ground and is looking forward to putting men into the ground. Always wants to protect his teammates with his own body.

Great. Could do with a bit of mongrel in the middle.

saintvic · Jun 8, 2021

stavro#4 said:
fu** the snags.

KFC and I’m injecting it straight into his veins. Sculpt the Adonis once the size is in place.

Maybe he can get housed with plugger66, the kfc and dim sims diet should do the trick

ScrappyDo · Jun 8, 2021

gringo2011 said:
We are meant to have some kids in the academy that might be worth listing this year. None are top end talent but it's a way to add some youth to the side on the cheap. Not having heaps of picks might mean we go into deficit though.

Once academy kids slip low enough they're basically free. I doubt ours will cost..

pebblesofsand · Jun 8, 2021

BrutThough said:
Does anyone actually believe Billings would get us band 1 compo?

Sounds just like all the Adelaide fans everyone laughed at last year.

It depends on what other clubs offer.

Essendon got band 1 for Daniher on a 3 year contract worth around $2M.

Someone offers Billings $550K for 4 years then we get band 1.

Its as simple as that.

CursingFijian · Jun 8, 2021

If we are going to improve player development we really need our own reserves team. Is that still in the pipeline?

Sounds like the only guys that miss more than our recruiting team are...nah...can't do it...not going to go there.

I know that we are all a little shell shocked with some of our recent player trades, but is there anyone we would be willing to take in? If we could swap [delist] Hannerbery and bring in Liberatore who apparently isn't seeing eye to eye with the bulldogs list management team would we consider that? Or perhaps send Brad Hill to the cats (where I think he would be an outstanding fit) in exchange for say Brandon Parfitt [second in the league this year for tackles]? Mabior Chol is getting a run with big Nank going lame but he was a very impressive first ruck in the Dreamtime game and would be an excellent Ryder replacement while Heath is learning the trade. Pretty sure the Tigers had Marlion Pickett launch in a centre bounce or two on the weekend.

I understand that we haven't been hitting the mark with some of our mature age recruits, but I think that the money tied up in Hannerbery and Hill is limiting our ability to hunt for substantial talent. Offloading those two might just be the starting point for moving forward again.

We are otherwise talking about going back to the draft and putting trust in a recruiting department that doesn't have a lot of runs on the board and doesn't appear to have a sound list management strategy.

stavro#4 · Jun 8, 2021

pebblesofsand said:
It depends on what other clubs offer.

Essendon got band 1 for Daniher on a 3 year contract worth around $2M.

Someone offers Billings $550K for 4 years then we get band 1.

Its as simple as that.

Needs to be more then 550k.
700k I reckon and I think that is a plausible amount. He is currently listed in the top 100 paid getting close to 750k off us and is 26.

if he was to take an offer elsewhere you cant imagine he take a 100k haircut per year.

gringo2011 · Jun 8, 2021

stavro#4 said:
I’m dirty on the club. As a member I believed them when they said we would push for top 4 this year. Personal opinion. 2023 is when we will push the 4. Might not even play finals next year. We will be a horrifically young list.

Side note about our fortunes etc but I almost feel like the AFL gods are trying to fix our situation for us. By this I mean the following.

no one would have predicted us to finish so poorly and king to do his ACL in the same year. He was the undisputed number 1 pick prior to that knee.

the injuries this year are a huge reason we are where we are. Every chance we could get kissed on the dick again and have access to some really high end kids.

That's more my time line too, 2022 looks like a development year, 2023 guys like Byrnes and Bytel should be hitting the 50 games mark, a few new top end Kids will have experience and we should know what we have with Clark and Coffield types being seriously experienced players. Howard, Marshall and Wilkie are still relative inexperienced too so should be hitting absolute top form.

The ruck looks like the area that will be worst hit in that period without Paddy Ryder but King should be starting to find some consistent form and Crouch, Ross, Steele, Hill and co will all still be in that absolute prime age for a challenge. I have no problem waiting an extra year if we get it all right but just want signs that some of the areas that have been poorly managed have been improved. If Libba can find me a gun with our first pick and Billings compo I'll be a happy man for 2022.

Push a tier of players out to VFL depth like potentially Dunny and DMac types for injury cover, that's a more likely list. If we have a clean injury run next year we might even jump up early but doubt we go anywhere near a GF yet.

bird_man · Jun 8, 2021

StCicatriz said:
did we know it back then? i didn't, i just trusted them until pretty late. i remember defending it against Gringo and trying to support posters like ARR. around 2017 i started to really question it and thought we need a re-alignment of the list, a mk2 on the build. not a complete rebuild but a mini one almost. you pretty much called it LOL worthy and throughout that year had the opinion that the list management was good.

the problem i have is that it wasn't just Trout and Ameet. sure they're long gone! but some of that recruitment team were present during that period. i think you're starting to pick up similarities between the two if i am being perfectly honest. anyways i digress...

so we get to last year. i start to get an uneasy feeling around the drafting. you dismissed my point entirely around libba and said that given i didn't even have the right date he was made head recruiter (despite the transition bleeding across) i should be the last person to listen to. you then said it was far too early to call any issues on the drafting of players.

so we get to now and suddenly you have big issues with areas of the recruitment because of the age demographic, the mix of selections and the Allison selection. like what happened to it being too soon? and i thought it was all good?

so do you have problem with the recruitment or not, because this is starting to feel like history repeating!

i actually agree with the points you had made in the last month. i think you have made excellent observations in terms of the age demographics and the make up of the list, particularly around the selections of midfield talent. which previously had not been covered.

I'm just confused as to if you see a genuine problem with recruitment or not?

Sorry if I've made it confusing for you.

I think it's ok to question some decisions without suggesting people are no good at their job or our list is no good.

It's definitely not all doom and gloom for me but I think we have made some mistakes over this last period of time.

We now have a good core of 21-25 year olds which I think is a credit to the club but I don't like the fact that we now trail behind the rest of the comp in terms of under 21 year olds.

I don't like the fact that we have only used one top 40 pick on a midfielder since 2015. Look at all the best sides at the moment and they are filled with mids taken in that first bracket of the draft.

I've made it pretty clear I wasn't happy with the Allison decision as there were obvious choices that could have helped rectify that issue but we decided against it.

Using that pick on Poulter and then a late pick on someone like Callow was a much better option imo.

I don't think the drafting as a whole had been poor but the fact that we have traded away picks means we have to nail the ones we are left with.

As Stavro has stated the club has already spoken about hitting the draft this year which I think is the right move and can go a long way into fixing these issue's.

We are only going to get so much improvement from this 21-25 group before we need a new wave coming through.

We also need to get fair dinkum about developing players. Drafting Clark at 7 as a mid and not playing him as a mid will kill us long term.

He was excellent round one and hasn't been given the opportunity to play as a full time mid since. Compare that to the other top 10 mids taken from that draft and they have all had midfield time pumped into them from a young age.

Outside of that I think we've made some very good drafting decisions since Libba essentially took the reigns. Byrnes as a late selection looks terrific. Bytel, while I'm still not 100% sold on looks like he has the tools, Clark, Coffield and King all good picks if we can develop them.

Hope that clears it up a bit.

pebblesofsand · Jun 8, 2021

gringo2011 said:
We have a tall forward that should be a star if we develop him right. Small forwards are a real issue if we plan on playing a mosquito fleet. We really need a more damaging type rather than Lonie and Butler who are both too similar and both having shocking years. Last year Butler looked AA quality, this year it's hard to justify playing him most weeks.

Snags is our Papley but he's doing all the heavy lifting for the forwards. King would have been better off with a Bruce type to protect him and take the heat. For some reason we play Membrey further from goal which means he's spent when kicking and we seemed to plan on resting a ruck to protect king which has been scuttled by injury.

To me a Kosi Pickett type like Hill's little cousin at GWS would be ideal if Ratts want his smalls at the fall plan. Members closer to goal or replace him with Battle and play Tim on the wing etc. Not developing Battle in atet spot is a weird choice especially as it seems to be a key position role or bust for him.

I can't think of any side that needs multiple mid sized lead up forwards and considering we play the ones we have out of position it makes even less sense. Targeting a tall back makes more sense to me.

Sorry Gringo, Battle will never be a star.

Medium sized player with no outstanding qualities other than a tank. If he was as good as people think he is, we would see examples of that quality every game irrespective of where he plays.

Looked good for a few minutes on Saturday when he was playing on an undersized slow hbf in Zeibell. Soon as they shifted a taller defender onto him that was it.

Will never be a kpf, 3rd tall forward at best, and a long way behind Membrey.

And thats the reason why Allison looked attractive to the recruiters.

gringo2011 · Jun 8, 2021

CursingFijian said:
If we are going to improve player development we really need our own reserves team. Is that still in the pipeline?

Sounds like the only guys that miss more than our recruiting team are...nah...can't do it...not going to go there.

I know that we are all a little shell shocked with some of our recent player trades, but is there anyone we would be willing to take in? If we could swap [delist] Hannerbery and bring in Liberatore who apparently isn't seeing eye to eye with the bulldogs list management team would we consider that? Or perhaps send Brad Hill to the cats (where I think he would be an outstanding fit) in exchange for say Brandon Parfitt [second in the league this year for tackles]? Mabior Chol is getting a run with big Nank going lame but he was a very impressive first ruck in the Dreamtime game and would be an excellent Ryder replacement while Heath is learning the trade. Pretty sure the Tigers had Marlion Pickett launch in a centre bounce or two on the weekend.

I understand that we haven't been hitting the mark with some of our mature age recruits, but I think that the money tied up in Hannerbery and Hill is limiting our ability to hunt for substantial talent. Offloading those two might just be the starting point for moving forward again.

We are otherwise talking about going back to the draft and putting trust in a recruiting department that doesn't have a lot of runs on the board and doesn't appear to have a sound list management strategy.

I don't buy that, what we have now is pretty much the St Kilda reserves in Sandy jumpers. I think the good clubs buy up solid talent to have some quality to play along side the listed guys. It's probably more to do with putting energy and resources into the VFL side more than anything. Clear plans of what we want to achieve and work on etc. The players at VFL only get about $500 per game so it's not cheap but not expensive either. rebranding it all would be a lot more.

Chasing some secondary talent looks good management. Plenty of clubs have good depth not getting games.

Browny2Carlisle · Jun 8, 2021

bird_man said:
Sorry if I've made it confusing for you.

I think it's ok to question some decisions without suggesting people are no good at their job or our list is no good.

It's definitely not all doom and gloom for me but I think we have made some mistakes over this last period of time.

We now have a good core of 21-25 year olds which I think is a credit to the club but I don't like the fact that we now trail behind the rest of the comp in terms of under 21 year olds.

I don't like the fact that we have only used one top 40 pick on a midfielder since 2015. Look at all the best sides at the moment and they are filled with mids taken in that first bracket of the draft.

I've made it pretty clear I wasn't happy with the Allison decision as there were obvious choices that could have helped rectify that issue but we decided against it.

Using that pick on Poulter and then a late pick on someone like Callow was a much better option imo.

I don't think the drafting as a whole had been poor but the fact that we have traded away picks means we have to nail the ones we are left with.

As Stavro has stated the club has already spoken about hitting the draft this year which I think is the right move and can go a long way into fixing these issue's.

We are only going to get so much improvement from this 21-25 group before we need a new wave coming through.

We also need to get fair dinkum about developing players. Drafting Clark at 7 as a mid and not playing him as a mid will kill us long term.

He was excellent round one and hasn't been given the opportunity to play as a full time mid since. Compare that to the other top 10 mids taken from that draft and they have all had midfield time pumped into them from a young age.

Outside of that I think we've made some very good drafting decisions since Libba essentially took the reigns. Byrnes as a late selection looks terrific. Bytel, while I'm still not 100% sold on looks like he has the tools, Clark, Coffield and King all good picks if we can develop them.

Hope that clears it up a bit.

Would be nice if instead of drafting someone we hope will turn into a mid... We draft a mid

Dr Spaceman · Jun 8, 2021

gringo2011 said:
We are meant to have some kids in the academy that might be worth listing this year. None are top end talent but it's a way to add some youth to the side on the cheap. Not having heaps of picks might mean we go into deficit though.

As per usual I’m not getting too excited about this year’s Academy crop

bird_man · Jun 8, 2021

Browny2Carlisle said:
Would be nice if instead of drafting someone we hope will turn into a mid... We draft a mid

Well there will be a few available this year.

pebblesofsand · Jun 8, 2021

stavro#4 said:
Needs to be more then 550k.
700k I reckon and I think that is a plausible amount. He is currently listed in the top 100 paid getting close to 750k off us and is 26.

if he was to take an offer elsewhere you cant imagine he take a 100k haircut per year.

My apologies my figures were for guaranted money, which is the figure the AFL use to determine compo - they don't include incentive payments.

Brisbane guaranteed Daniher a very high set figure each year, whether he played one game or 22. If he had been offered say $550k plus $150k in incentives Essendon wouldn't have got band 1.

I'm pretty sure that any contract which guarantees Billings more the $2m would get us band 1.

BrutThough · Jun 8, 2021

pebblesofsand said:
My apologies my figures were for guaranted money, which the figure the AFL use to determine compo - it doesn't include incentive payments.

Brisbane guaranteed Daniher a very high set figure each year, whether he played one game or 22. If he had been offered say $550k plus $150k in incentives Essendon wouldn't have got band 1.

I'm pretty sure that any contract which guarantees Billings more the $2m would get us band 1.

Crouch is on about 600k for 4 years with a 5th year trigger and that got Adelaide band 3.

Billings isn't getting us band 1 compo.

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