List Mgmt. 2022 Carlton Consensus Best 22

[Justnetime]

you make your argument well with sound evidence, however when you look at the names at the top of this List I think you can put to bed the theory that free kicks against = poor AFL IQ

Most Free Kicks Against | 2021 AFL Statistics

Who has given away the most free kicks in AFL 2021?

www.zerohanger.com

Its not about free kicks against. It’s about the ratio difference between free kicks for and free kicks against.

Example. Cripps on footy wire had something like 2.3 frees for and 2.2 frees against. A plus .1 net positive. And this despite he plays a much much harder position than Cottrell. Clayton Oliver has a -.1 differential. But shows his aggressiveness again in a very hard role where his role is to lay down the law physically Amongst other things.

Cottrell has a differential of -.4. A terrible differential league wide and puts him in the category of lumbering ruckman. Cottrell doesn’t have the luxury of inside midfielder to protect his horrible stat.

Why I’ve used the ratio between the two is you can say you can be smart to earn free kicks (selwood), and you can be stupid to lose free kicks. The stat can be clouded by position like inside mid, negating roles and a player asked to be aggressive.

Another point for debate is that Cottrell in his games is always top in ground covered due to his elite running. Despite that he can’t find the ball like his counterpart runner in Walsh. He can’t use his running advantage to run to the right spots to actually get a kick. What do you call that? He averaged low possessions. He is getting lost. The only reprieve on this latter bit is of coaches asked him to lock down on defensive running as his sole objective. Would be a stupid objective in todays game.

 

[Matty411]

That's it, folks! Our final interchange has landed, with Ed Curnow, Mitch McGovern

11

Mitch Mcgovern

Age

29

Ht

190cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.1

3star

K

7.2

3star

HB

2.9

3star

M

4.6

4star

T

2.2

4star

MG

189.8

3star

D

7.6

2star

K

6.5

3star

HB

1.1

1star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.9

3star

MG

179.6

3star

D

10.8

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

3.0

5star

MG

218.0

4star

, Nic Newman

24

Nic Newman

Age

31

Ht

186cm

Wt

80kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.7

5star

K

13.7

5star

HB

5.9

4star

M

5.5

5star

T

3.3

5star

MG

400.8

5star

D

7.5

2star

K

6.5

3star

HB

1.0

1star

M

2.0

2star

T

1.0

2star

MG

157.0

3star

D

22.4

5star

K

12.8

5star

HB

9.6

5star

M

5.4

5star

T

3.6

5star

MG

387.8

5star

and Marc Pittonet

27

Marc Pittonet

Age

27

Ht

202cm

Wt

107kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.7

2star

K

2.9

1star

HB

4.8

3star

CL

3.1

5star

HO

22.3

5star

D

8.6

2star

K

4.6

2star

HB

4.0

3star

CL

3.7

5star

HO

25.9

5star

D

5.8

2star

K

1.2

1star

HB

4.6

4star

CL

2.4

5star

HO

16.6

5star

securing the final four spots in our votes.

Each have a genuine claim to the 22 and will feature heavily in 2022.

The Best 22 side has divided and created discussion, but is solid and balanced - with a strong chance of taking the Tigers to the sword in Round 1.

Thanks to all for voting and posting this year. May next year be even harder.

 

[thylacine60]

good work, matty.........

 

[gandaal]

Great work once again Matty411

I thought last year's team was complete rubbish, but this year's is closer to the mark. There's no way in hell Young plays Full Back, and I think we need an actual small forward playing small forward, but otherwise I like it.

 

[Metalcrusher]

Great work once again Matty411

I thought last year's team was complete rubbish, but this year's is closer to the mark. There's no way in hell Young plays Full Back, and I think we need an actual small forward playing small forward, but otherwise I like it.

Are you willing to wager a bet

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

If Young can not consistently play at a decent level across the season in one of our key defensive posts this year, then unfortunately we will struggle at times against teams head to head with the top end key forwards…

Without sounding unfair, there’s a fair bit riding on him with the individual KPD stocks we actually have at our disposal atm, hopefully he can rise to the occasion and step up along with our new coaching and playing systems…

A good system helps but that correlates with how well players can actually stand up and play their roles in all positions particularly key position players…

 

[GapInIkonPark]

Thanks Matty411 !

 

[gandaal]

Are you willing to wager a bet

If he does we’re stuffed. Young is an intercepting tall defender. That’s his go. He might make it as a floating CHB but unless he significantly builds up his body and drastically improves his one on one defence he’ll never be ready to effectively man the oppositions main key forward. I think he’s best 22, but another tall is needed to support Weitering. Probably McGovern or McDonald, but they have their issues too. Ideally Marchbank experiences a miracle and actually gets a functioning body but I doubt that will happen.

 

[Arr0w]

If he does we’re stuffed. Young is an intercepting tall defender. That’s his go. He might make it as a floating CHB but unless he significantly builds up his body and drastically improves his one on one defence he’ll never be ready to effectively man the oppositions main key forward. I think he’s best 22, but another tall is needed to support Weitering. Probably McGovern or McDonald, but they have their issues too. Ideally Marchbank experiences a miracle and actually gets a functioning body but I doubt that will happen.

We would be in more trouble if Gov is playing as a key defender

 

[gandaal]

We would be in more trouble if Gov is playing as a key defender

Maybe he'll surprise us.

But I think it's safe to say we're in trouble in defence.

 

[Arr0w]

Maybe he'll surprise us.

But I think it's safe to say we're in trouble in defence.

Certainly if we have injuries to KPD types

 

[Accidental genius]

We have Young McDonald Pitto to help fill Jones spot. That should see us out of major trouble in the short term.

 

[Arr0w]

We have Young McDonald Pitto to help fill Jones spot. That should see us out of major trouble in the short term.

Pitto as a key defender? Would get slaughtered

 

[Accidental genius]

Pitto as a key defender? Would get slaughtered

Maybe not as a sole key defender but maybe to assist young or McDonald. He has done this previously.

 

[Justnetime]

Thanks Matty, great thread.

 

[Arr0w]

Maybe not as a sole key defender but maybe to assist young or McDonald. He has done this previously.

If you mean playing a kick behind play and or working back hard, absolutely, but not as a defender

 

[JuddgementDay]

Thanks Matty411 - maybe we can get one game where this team is on the park

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

These are things are opposite.

Cottrell, unlike Ed Curnow, is a genuine wingman. They are very different players.
Whether he makes it or not, he's got a 1 year rookie contract to show something.

I'm not sure Cotters is a genuine AFL player, let alone a genuine winger.
To me, a wingman should be covering lots of ground (he does this), but should be getting into damaging positions (at stoppages, contests and on the spread), delivering the ball into forward 50 regularly (more than 2 times a game), and to advantage. They should favour kicking over handballing. Be damaging and accurate with their kicks and get more uncontested ball. Ideally they'd be getting the ball a minimum of 18 times a game (not 11-12 touches).
So, out of all that, Cottrell runs and has some mongrel. The second thing isn't even required for a winger. You don't want them shirking contests, but they don't necessarily need mongrel.
I don't want to hang it on the guy more than I already have, but I'm not sure he's even of benefit to the VFL side.

He still plays better than I ever did and made to a much higher level than I ever did, so good on him for that, but he should be one of the first off the list if we're serious about improving.

 

[BigBreakfast]

Ed and Cottrell being called out as similar players is a subjective argument so yes, we need to call out key points one way or another to convince people one way or another. What you have done is point out nothing except to say I’m wrong. That is a typical forum response designed to frustrate and do little more than annoy the originatng poster.

I have put something out there for debate. You have put nothing. Here it is again. Some are stat given, some are the eye test because stats don’t show everything.

• Both have elite running
• both have weak disposal efficiency by foot
• Both have weak poise going inside 50 with the final kick
• Both have been used as defensive transitioning runners / midfielders by the club (maybe not a trait)
• Both have high turnovers though Ed has a better reason playing in the guts
• Both have very weak contested mark stats
• Both have much better uncontested marks (I guess due to their similar running ability)
• Both are very high in our midfielders for one percenters in 2021 at least (making up for a lack of class)
• Both have high rebound 50 kick averages compared to Dow/Cripps because both have the running similarity and are used for that ability
• Yes they don’t play the same role. But that is nonsense. There is only one negating midfielder role on offer and that has been Ed for years. Similar to Stocker, Setterfield, Kennedy being pushed to other roles because of Cripps.
• Id argue if Ed wasn’t in the team there would have been greater emphasis on developing Cottrell as a run with player. Not that he would have been successful for it but based on best chance for a 22 role.

Are they exact replicas, no of course not. But neither are Stocker, Kennedy, Setterfield and Cripps but they all have enough similar attributes to want the inside midfielder role. Loosely, these 4 are similar players too. Not as similar as Ed and Cottrell though.

One thing worth point out is Cottrell has terrible disposal efficiency. Anyone (Stamos) wanting him on our wing delivering the ball has to revisit that. He is well short of the mark Required at AFL level.

On your next point about LoB. It’s Cottrell elite running trait versus LoBs kicking trait. Both are rightly way down the order of being picked on field. Both could have been delisted. But if you are hoping for one of those to make it, it isn’t Cottrell. We need elite inside 50 kicking. I haven’t been a fan of LoB at all because I think there is a trait there where he is physically intimidated. The last two games of 2021 he didn’t let that stop him and his kicking in those games was what we drafted him for… obviously because his career was on the line He showed his best side he may revert now he is safe. You choose who you like but I don’t think we need Cottrell due to all the other options ahead of both of them.

Tell me Cottrells point of difference against our other mids other than elite two way running which Ed offers. Don’t ignore this point. Put something up for me to knock down.

I never changed the discussion. For simplicity because multiple posters pick one word, one phrase and debate that out of context, I said let’s split the topic for clarity into two parts. My premise was and I state it clearly again, we could have used Cottrels spot to better effect with more tall coverage and that was a miss from our list manager.

Please don’t just pick one line or one point. Address the theme even if you disagree with one of the bullet points. It’s this forum behaviour that really sucks.

You are comparing apples and oranges. They don’t play the same role so many of these comparisons have very little relevance. Ed rarely kicks inside 50 with clean possession while Cottrell should do it frequently in a wing role but doesn’t. Ypu state this is nonsense but it cannot be. Compare like for like. I love Cotts heart and gut running ability but, zinwould have delisted him and chased KPD depth.

 

[BigBreakfast]

That's it, folks! Our final interchange has landed, with Ed Curnow, Mitch McGovern, Nic Newman and Marc Pittonet securing the final four spots in our votes.

Each have a genuine claim to the 22 and will feature heavily in 2022.

The Best 22 side has divided and created discussion, but is solid and balanced - with a strong chance of taking the Tigers to the sword in Round 1.

Thanks to all for voting and posting this year. May next year be even harder.

Nice work mate. Love this thread every year.

 

[Justnetime]

You are comparing apples and oranges. They don’t play the same role so many of these comparisons have very little relevance. Ed rarely kicks inside 50 with clean possession while Cottrell should do it frequently in a wing role but doesn’t. Ypu state this is nonsense but it cannot be. Compare like for like. I love Cotts heart and gut running ability but, zinwould have delisted him and chased KPD depth.

Setterfield, Stocker and Cripps don’t play the same position on field. Are they too comparing apples and oranges given all three want to play inside midfielder? I’d compare those as apples as they have enough similar traits but not 100% match of traits.

Comparing is not about current positions that Teague and the MC chose for them. It is about player traits and suitability for roles.

Austin drafts based on traits. Example, SPS weakness as a half back flanker was metres gained which is required for a rebounding defender. SPS didn’t have the trait. Austin when out and sourced it via Saad. That pretty much ended SPSs future at Carlton. I’ve simplifield Saads traits because he also has other defensive trait advantages over SPS.

On Ed kicking inside 50. Either his running to space or the fact opposition sides strategy is to let him go free….Ed ended up with a lot of inside 50 kicked uncontested. He is terrible ‘on average’. It is a key to moving forward we remove him and Cripps from this role. The sooner it goes more often to Cerra, Walsh and a couple we need to unearth the better. In other areas of the ground like stoppages, Ed had direct pressure Forcing poor kicks.

I honestly think opposition sides over the last 5 years have said on the weight of things in terms of attack and defence, let players like Ed and Casbault just have their chances around Carlton’s forward 50. Basically, don’t panic guys, we will get them easily On the rebound. I’m sure they were confident they would use it so much better for net positive goals.

 

[Ald Gardiner]

Lost track of this thread, so where is a link or whatever to our best 22?

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

The premiership side just had two wingman who never hit up a forward so it’s really not necessary, depending on game style.
McIntosh was the same before them too.

 

[Matty411]

Lost track of this thread, so where is a link or whatever to our best 22?

Head back to the OP on Page 1, Ald.

 

[BigBreakfast]

The premiership side just had two wingman who never hit up a forward so it’s really not necessary, depending on game style.
McIntosh was the same before them too.

They were very good at creating width for the on ballers to work. Brayshaw was very good by hand and foot. Tomlinson just ran… LOB easily fill the Brayshaw role but so can Cerra. At this stage Cerra has runs on the board.