That was 4 years ago, with the 6 6 6, along with other sides, they pretty much ceased that tactic
We didn't run with JSOS as a preferred 2nd ruck option, it was necessity due to injury
List Mgmt. 2022 Carlton Consensus Best 22
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That was 4 years ago, with the 6 6 6, along with other sides, they pretty much ceased that tactic
We didn't run with JSOS as a preferred 2nd ruck option, it was necessity due to injury
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fair point on Eagles, but I would counter that all 3 of those are considerably better footballers than Pittonet.
Metalcrusher
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It's an interesting call and worthy of further discussion
I will lay one out right now. Owies is not an AFL footballer.
Justnetime
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We had a better win percentage with Casbault out Than him covering injuries to one of TDK and Pitto. We had a better win percentage without two rucks playing. Why, because of the simple fact they are our weakest players on field. So we perform better without them.
This trumps the inane point of McKay goals.
What comes to mind with your posts arrow is that you know just enough to make potentially dangerous opinions.
thylacine60
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dangerous? this ain't wuhan, this ain't no disco......
Justnetime
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Hehe. That same line may apply to me Lol. At least you are still up to enjoy it.
It came to mind for Arrow as he says everything with such ‘Fact’ and authority. It can’t help but grate.
Im now going back and re reading my posts that I’m not exactly the same as him. It would hurt a lot.
thylacine60
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give arrow his due - he is easily the best poster here at presenting a case and supporting it - it drives people insane at times but there it is.........
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Win percentage isn't everything.
Let's have a look at those six games where TDK rucked with JSOS as backup:
Rd 15 Adelaide. Close win against a side really struggling.
Rd 17 Geelong. Horrible loss, albeit against a top-ranked side.
Rd 18 Collingwood. Good win. Possibly Jack's best game, super brave after Serge's death. Managed to nullify Grundy and the Pies folded.
Rd 19 Norf. Worst loss in years. Smashed by the #18 side in the comp. They monstered us all over the ground. This game, we just had 3 talls - Weiters, Jones & TDK, Cripps next tallest playing as a makeshift forward. TDK tried hard, but canny old Goldy ran him into the ground, and in the second half he and Xerri just fed their mids as if our rucks weren't there. A lot went wrong in this game, primarily losing H, so it would be wrong just to blame the rucks, but they were getting first hands on the ball every time.
Rd 20 STK. Backed up the last week, with one of our best wins. Frustrating. Saints didn't turn up. Their supporters would have been so frustrated with this game.
Rd 21 Suns. Another horrible loss against a low-ranked side.
So... 3 wins against sides in the bottom half. Two of those wins at least, quite meritorious. But the three losses were truly terrible. And two of those against sides lower than us. As I said above, this isn't all down to the ruck situation, but a close look at those matches will show that the only match where JSOS was really effective as second ruck was the Pies game. Injuries across the ground hurt us right through the year, but particularly during this period, where we should really have been looking to win 5 out of those 6.
As for Caz. He had no pre-season, came into the year injured, unfit, out-of-form. Hard to recover from a start like that. In a perfect world he'd have been given more time to recover fitness, but we didn't have that luxury and played him when we shouldn't have. We are much better structurally when he is there, and despite his 2021 season, I think we'll miss him, because we just don't have a ready replacement for that role. I'm certain a lot of work will be done with TDK and Pitto on their forward play as we need that combination to work, and you've rightly pointed out that up to this point it hasn't. (If I'm fair on this point given the above listing of matches, I'll point out the WCE and GWS matches where both TDK and Pitto played and were pretty bad losses) But failing that, we'll look to McDonald or Young to play the Caz role, with the other at FB. JSOS just isn't an option - he's already got chronic shoulder issues, getting smashed at ruck contests will shorten his career.
Justnetime
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Good post Bletch. I think the start of the discussion just centred around two points. There are fair possibilities to win matches without a backup ruck that is a weak player. In our case because Casbault missed preseason/ was underdone, then I felt the over all benefit was not to play him at all. Convention said to play him. I listed enough evidence to make the point. Doesn’t mean you have to prefer it or Voss.
I definitely felt I provided enough information that it might not end up a ‘disaster’.
Not the original discussion but I made a third point I stick by personally. Try and play with your best player make up Within reason. Get creative. Melbourne’s two rucks are not just in their best 22, they are in their best 15. One of them is in their best 3. Our list with Casbault and Pitto and TDK looking at last years form, wouldn’t be in the Dees best 22. None of our three would get a game there.
Strategically why mirror what we can't match. Melbourne would beg us to play those three for a safe win than see us experiment with an alternative potentially winning strategy.
I don’t mind Pittonett as a player, he has a few limitations as a ruckman compared to to his peers throughout the competition, mainly speed and agility but he always has a crack gives his all, uses his body strength really well and provides a great contest over the entire ground getting forward or back when he can….
Mainly through injuries we had to play JSOS as a relief ruckman, whom had the opportunity to show he’s wonderful nous as a footballer given the chance as a midfielder displaying a well balanced game offensively or defensively….
He may not be a pure second ruckman but what he produced as a relief ruck in the centre square ruck bounces when the ball was in dispute, as well as around the ground for me was not only a little surprising but has me thinking of a more mobile and flexible setup…
The conundrum is McGovern, we know he can play forward, has all the speed skills smarts no doubt but injuries throughout his career has been his Achilles heel, i also like the idea of him being trialed as a third defender has the total package to play behind the ball and do well….
What if we can use both JSOS and McGovern as rotating pinch hitters for small blocks in the ruck throughout a game, JSOS has provided a nice quality small sample last season combined as a forward, maybe McGovern can be a floater between all arcs, rotating off the bench, keen to see if there’s something also to work with certainly worth looking at…
No doubt balance, opposition, injuries and form will play a their part and Pitto will no doubt get his fair share of games, but there certainly is the chance to explore some more options and flexibility we may have at our disposal on our list…
Mainly through injuries we had to play JSOS as a relief ruckman, whom had the opportunity to show he’s wonderful nous as a footballer given the chance as a midfielder displaying a well balanced game offensively or defensively….
He may not be a pure second ruckman but what he produced as a relief ruck in the centre square ruck bounces when the ball was in dispute, as well as around the ground for me was not only a little surprising but has me thinking of a more mobile and flexible setup…
The conundrum is McGovern, we know he can play forward, has all the speed skills smarts no doubt but injuries throughout his career has been his Achilles heel, i also like the idea of him being trialed as a third defender has the total package to play behind the ball and do well….
What if we can use both JSOS and McGovern as rotating pinch hitters for small blocks in the ruck throughout a game, JSOS has provided a nice quality small sample last season combined as a forward, maybe McGovern can be a floater between all arcs, rotating off the bench, keen to see if there’s something also to work with certainly worth looking at…
No doubt balance, opposition, injuries and form will play a their part and Pitto will no doubt get his fair share of games, but there certainly is the chance to explore some more options and flexibility we may have at our disposal on our list…
Justnetime
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I like JSoS. I don’t like the idea of McGovern but that is simply personal preference. I think JSoS buys into a role 100% and above all will fight for Carlton success. McGovern either buys in to a role like that or won’t…I’m not quite sure based on what we have seen.
Other options include McKay and Young doing all fwd and def 50 stoppages. This allows us to carry one less potatoe and one more skilled option.
Between that and JSoS we wouldn’t be predictable because there would be a game where JSoS gets monstered and we lose the game. And there is probably a group of games where we have to have two rucks.
Hopefully we have different gears. IMO holding Pitto up for weeks at a time making him fired up to compete really appeals. With the players ranked 22-30 on our list we see they can play well for 1-2 weeks at def con 5 level but once they get comfortable they fail and get dropped. Cottrell seems like this. I like him on first appearance as he hustles. But his lack of tricks means he is a liability for us comes games 3-5 As he drops his levels slightly.
Nice if the match committee could recognise this and use it to our advantage. Some players like Walsh are 22 games per season AFL quality. Pitto / Cottrell on exposed form are AFL quality for 4-6 games Per season.
I think it may well depend on the new game plan and how exactly we want to structure up along with ball movement, as well as how quickly & long it takes the players to adapt to Vossy and the assistants new game style…
There’s the discussion for a more mobile setup that provides more flexibility and run compared with the two ruckman combo that strengthens your ruck department but takes away from the other, when one of your ruckman being a little lumbering and athletically limited…
I’m sure there will be a number of combinations throughout the year, hopefully the injury count is low as well as trying out some players in new positions, sure McGovern might be a bit of a long shot pinch hitting in the ruck, but there’s no harm in trialing him in multiple positions if it can help or improve the team altogether…
See how things pan out, really looking forward to things finally clicking…
Could anyone name a Grigg/JSos 2nd string ruck option, from a top 8 side this year, without injuries to that club's ruck stocks?
I think that 2nd ruck is moreso a breakeven/negating ruckman, that can be a threat forward/negate intercepts/bring the ball to ground
Ratugolea does none of those things.
Esava Ratugolea and Jack Silvagni AFL Stats Comparison
Esava Ratugolea and Jack Silvagni AFL Stats Comparison.
www.footywire.com
As a 2nd string KPF/ruckman, i would probably have Esava doing that role, just.
But they have 6 others that could play as a ruck/forward
And someone like Cameron then gets the 3rd defender
I think if the players under your ruckman are really good defensively, that is they are agile, fast and willing to hit bodies then your second ruckman is not a big issue. The problem is we aren't good in this area.
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JMartin Chuck Jsos
Durdin H motlop
Int: mcgov
Assumption: tdk and Pittonet rucks. One to rest forward or defense as required.
Good balance of tall, med tall and crumbers.
Durdin H motlop
Int: mcgov
Assumption: tdk and Pittonet rucks. One to rest forward or defense as required.
Good balance of tall, med tall and crumbers.
None of them in my team.
Forwards vote complete
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Forward thinking
In what was the closest vote to date, our seven forwards for the 22 in 22' have been decided.
Starting off, our 2021 Coleman Medallist Harry McKay was unanimous, polling at 100% as he should be. Unsurprisingly, fellow 2015 alums in Charlie Curnow (99.3%) and Jack Silvagni (93.9%) weren't far behind.
The talented Jack Martin (95.9%) remains a favourite despite not hitting his straps in Navy Blue.
Josh Honey (76.9%) and Zac Fisher (54.4%) announced themselves as our two favoured small forwards for the Consensus team, polling well and surprising a few.
That leaves the final spot, with a number of young smalls fighting it out for the 'forward bench spot'.
Despite a very hard-fought race from untried draftee Jesse Motlop (53 votes overall), serial tease and talented midfielder David Cuningham (36.7% and 54 votes) stole the final spot in our 21 positional votes.
Now having a strong blend of talls & smalls and speed and dynamics, the final position will be one that dramatically divides.
Do we need a defined second ruck? A solid supporting midfielder? Another back or forward?
Vote to come shortly...
In what was the closest vote to date, our seven forwards for the 22 in 22' have been decided.
Starting off, our 2021 Coleman Medallist Harry McKay was unanimous, polling at 100% as he should be. Unsurprisingly, fellow 2015 alums in Charlie Curnow (99.3%) and Jack Silvagni (93.9%) weren't far behind.
The talented Jack Martin (95.9%) remains a favourite despite not hitting his straps in Navy Blue.
Josh Honey (76.9%) and Zac Fisher (54.4%) announced themselves as our two favoured small forwards for the Consensus team, polling well and surprising a few.
That leaves the final spot, with a number of young smalls fighting it out for the 'forward bench spot'.
Despite a very hard-fought race from untried draftee Jesse Motlop (53 votes overall), serial tease and talented midfielder David Cuningham (36.7% and 54 votes) stole the final spot in our 21 positional votes.
Now having a strong blend of talls & smalls and speed and dynamics, the final position will be one that dramatically divides.
Do we need a defined second ruck? A solid supporting midfielder? Another back or forward?
Vote to come shortly...
- Thread starter
- #300
Honestly not sure with this vote - will likely change it a few times in the next 3 days.
Went with Kemp for now given the flexibility it offers to move other pieces around (Young forward, Doc / Williams up the ground / try Kemp forward). Could easily go Durdin or Fog for some speed and tackling pressure and another (mild) rotation in the middle.
Almost went Ed out of respect and for another mid rotation but didn't want any more slower mids in our 22.
Firmly don't want TDK and Pittonet in the same side and see JSOS, Harry and Young capable of splitting the minutes while he's on the bench.
If TDK is out, I expect to run the same structure with Pitto in his place.
Went with Kemp for now given the flexibility it offers to move other pieces around (Young forward, Doc / Williams up the ground / try Kemp forward). Could easily go Durdin or Fog for some speed and tackling pressure and another (mild) rotation in the middle.
Almost went Ed out of respect and for another mid rotation but didn't want any more slower mids in our 22.
Firmly don't want TDK and Pittonet in the same side and see JSOS, Harry and Young capable of splitting the minutes while he's on the bench.
If TDK is out, I expect to run the same structure with Pitto in his place.
