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List Mgmt. 2022 Carlton Consensus Best 22

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Justnetime said:
The big hitters are out. Terry, Jeremias and now Stamos. If Arrow joins in and agrees with you Stamos, I’m completely cooked and he hates my guts. I think he hates yours too so would be great to see you team up.

You’ve picked a nice edge piece of information to debate on and something that has such a small part to play in the discussion that has gone on. That is, we could have used Cottrells spot to better effect from a list mgmt perspective.

Cottrell has shown zero signs IMO of being a genuine ‘AFL’ wingman. Maybe Except he can run up and down the field a lot. Can I turn this back on you and you explain what traits he has that make him a bonafide wingman? Because if we are left with hard two way running that is basically Ed Curnow. Also do you have him ahead of Walsh, Cerra, LoB, Newnes, a fit Docherty, Hewett. Ahead of other longer shot players in Philp and Kemp.

A low AFL IQ and being directly instructed to cover opponent midfield rebounds because Cripps, Dow, Murphy couldn’t/wouldn’t is not an opposite. They can both be true.
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Cottrell disagrees lol

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Justnetime said:
On Ed and Cottrell. Just because they have both been played in the same side and in different position doesn’t mean a lot. If you watch footy and you focus on ‘traits’ then there are lots of similarities. Both better off in negating roles. Both have very poor hurt factor going forward. Yes, both can run. Both can’t really kick to advantage. Both can’t take contested grabs, only use their running to space to mark the ball. Cottrell can’t get the ball as much as Ed but then Ed got the coveted midfield role that just happens to rack up possessions. Cottrell has never deserved the role for sure and is younger. Both of their decision making is either average or poor.
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You made the claim they are similar players. They may have similar weaknesses, that doesn't mean they are similar players. Am sure I can put forward a key position player with similar deficiencies, doesn't mean much.

Wing
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( not in order except Cottrell)
Walsh, Cerra at times
LoB
Ed Curnow
Newnes
Hewett
Philp
Kemp
(any of Martin, Kennedy, Fisher spending 5 mins there)
Cottrell / Newman / Williamson
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LOB second on that list, surely you are not serious? Didn't play a senior game last year, may improve this year, but there are plenty ahead of him there.

Similarly Cottrell being put there is a strange one given he was selected ahead of most on a number of occasions. I get he's not you're preference, but this is too far detached from reality.

My argument is that when compared to what we have on the list, I don’t think we need him at all
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I would have looked elsewhere also, but I will note this wasn't your initial point at all. You initially raised him being retained instead of a key position player as a case of terrible list management.

The goal posts seem to have shifted considerably here.
 
Jeremias said:
You made the claim they are similar players. They may have similar weaknesses, that doesn't mean they are similar players. Am sure I can put forward a key position player with similar deficiencies, doesn't mean much.



LOB second on that list, surely you are not serious? Didn't play a senior game last year, may improve this year, but there are plenty ahead of him there.

Similarly Cottrell being put there is a strange one given he was selected ahead of most on a number of occasions. I get he's not you're preference, but this is too far detached from reality.



I would have looked elsewhere also, but I will note this wasn't your initial point at all. You initially raised him being retained instead of a key position player as a case of terrible list management.

The goal posts seem to have shifted considerably here.
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Ed and Cottrell being called out as similar players is a subjective argument so yes, we need to call out key points one way or another to convince people one way or another. What you have done is point out nothing except to say I’m wrong. That is a typical forum response designed to frustrate and do little more than annoy the originatng poster.

I have put something out there for debate. You have put nothing. Here it is again. Some are stat given, some are the eye test because stats don’t show everything.
  • Both have elite running
  • both have weak disposal efficiency by foot
  • Both have weak poise going inside 50 with the final kick
  • Both have been used as defensive transitioning runners / midfielders by the club (maybe not a trait)
  • Both have high turnovers though Ed has a better reason playing in the guts
  • Both have very weak contested mark stats
  • Both have much better uncontested marks (I guess due to their similar running ability)
  • Both are very high in our midfielders for one percenters in 2021 at least (making up for a lack of class)
  • Both have high rebound 50 kick averages compared to Dow/Cripps because both have the running similarity and are used for that ability
  • Yes they don’t play the same role. But that is nonsense. There is only one negating midfielder role on offer and that has been Ed for years. Similar to Stocker, Setterfield, Kennedy being pushed to other roles because of Cripps.
  • Id argue if Ed wasn’t in the team there would have been greater emphasis on developing Cottrell as a run with player. Not that he would have been successful for it but based on best chance for a 22 role.
Are they exact replicas, no of course not. But neither are Stocker, Kennedy, Setterfield and Cripps but they all have enough similar attributes to want the inside midfielder role. Loosely, these 4 are similar players too. Not as similar as Ed and Cottrell though.

One thing worth point out is Cottrell has terrible disposal efficiency. Anyone (Stamos) wanting him on our wing delivering the ball has to revisit that. He is well short of the mark Required at AFL level.

On your next point about LoB. It’s Cottrell elite running trait versus LoBs kicking trait. Both are rightly way down the order of being picked on field. Both could have been delisted. But if you are hoping for one of those to make it, it isn’t Cottrell. We need elite inside 50 kicking. I haven’t been a fan of LoB at all because I think there is a trait there where he is physically intimidated. The last two games of 2021 he didn’t let that stop him and his kicking in those games was what we drafted him for… obviously because his career was on the line He showed his best side he may revert now he is safe. You choose who you like but I don’t think we need Cottrell due to all the other options ahead of both of them.

Tell me Cottrells point of difference against our other mids other than elite two way running which Ed offers. Don’t ignore this point. Put something up for me to knock down.

I never changed the discussion. For simplicity because multiple posters pick one word, one phrase and debate that out of context, I said let’s split the topic for clarity into two parts. My premise was and I state it clearly again, we could have used Cottrels spot to better effect with more tall coverage and that was a miss from our list manager.

Please don’t just pick one line or one point. Address the theme even if you disagree with one of the bullet points. It’s this forum behaviour that really sucks.
 
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Arr0w said:
I don't hate anyone's guts

Given contract statuses, I would have released Cotts and targeted a B/C grade KPD
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Thanks I wasn’t sure.

Other than I also think we need another tall defender; I think some who think we have the right balance already forget that we have some talls that have not really got on the park for years. Curnow, Marchbank and Kemp as talls are great quality but our list manager needs to also insure our current season against the risk they break down.
 

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Justnetime said:
One thing worth point out is Cottrell has terrible disposal efficiency. Anyone (Stamos) wanting him on our wing delivering the ball has to revisit that. He is well short of the mark Required at AFL level.
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I didn't say I wanted him on the wing, just that he, unlike Curnow, is a wingman.
And being able to run the right patterns (especially as a wingman) doesn't show 'poor football IQ', but the opposite.
And that nobody on this poll voting for him to be in the 26 doesn't mean it was wrong for the club to keep him, or that he has no chance of making it.
 
Stamos said:
I didn't say I wanted him on the wing, just that he, unlike Curnow, is a wingman.
And being able to run the right patterns (especially as a wingman) doesn't show 'poor football IQ', but the opposite.
And that nobody on this poll voting for him to be in the 26 doesn't mean it was wrong for the club to keep him, or that he has no chance of making it.
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Let's not pigeonhole players, especially in the modern game where many players can play multiple roles

While Ed is an inside as a preferred position, doesn't mean that Cotts is more effectively than Ed on a wing
 
Cottrell did finish the season playing well in the VFL and is one of those players where it's clear that if he develops it will be slow. He's also only 21 years old so perhaps the club have committed to giving him a full development period. However you could argue that perhaps we should have persisted with Ramsay instead who I felt was unlucky.
 
gbatman said:
Cottrell did finish the season playing well in the VFL and is one of those players where it's clear that if he develops it will be slow. He's also only 21 years old so perhaps the club have committed to giving him a full development period. However you could argue that perhaps we should have persisted with Ramsay instead who I felt was unlucky.
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Was happy to give him another go, but from what I seen in his extended run in the senior side this year was far too many weaknesses to his game that can not be corrected. I probably thought the same about Mitch Robinson early in his career but he has proven me wrong and I hope Cotterell can as well.

The biggest issue with Ed is his lack of versatility, he is a defensive midfielder or bust, he can not play any other role.. DT tried this year but he was either too small, too slow or simply not good enough when tried forward, wing or back. The modern game, very few clubs play witha straight out tagger and I am not sure Voss philosphy on this but if Ed isnt tagging, he is playing VFL.
 

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ItsAllAboutMe said:
Was happy to give him another go, but from what I seen in his extended run in the senior side this year was far too many weaknesses to his game that can not be corrected. I probably thought the same about Mitch Robinson early in his career but he has proven me wrong and I hope Cotterell can as well.

The biggest issue with Ed is his lack of versatility, he is a defensive midfielder or bust, he can not play any other role.. DT tried this year but he was either too small, too slow or simply not good enough when tried forward, wing or back. The modern game, very few clubs play witha straight out tagger and I am not sure Voss philosphy on this but if Ed isnt tagging, he is playing VFL.
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I'm with you on this.
 
My view is Ed is an effective mid rather than an accomplished midfielder. Effective mid in the context of a struggling side.

Carrazzo is another example of an effective mid in a bottom side.

Both would have struggled to play in a top side aged 18-22.

Now Cerra is what I call an accomplished mid and could play early and for a long time in a challenging side.
 
Stamos said:
I didn't say I wanted him on the wing, just that he, unlike Curnow, is a wingman.
And being able to run the right patterns (especially as a wingman) doesn't show 'poor football IQ', but the opposite.
And that nobody on this poll voting for him to be in the 26 doesn't mean it was wrong for the club to keep him, or that he has no chance of making it.
Click to expand...

I think he has a poor AFL IQ for a number of reasons but maybe just one example of ‘debatable’ evidence is the differential of free kicks for and against (= decision making under pressure). Cottrell in 2021 his first year of expectations and 12 games Is a good sample size. His decision making on tackles is something that can be linked with good and bad split second decisions. His 2021 ratio is poor. Another player with a poor ratio and who I think has poor AFL IQ is Casbault. Another is Pitto.

Players who I think are AFL smart like Pendlebury, Docherty and Cerra have good frees for and against splits. There are way more reasons for a smart IQ but they are more on the eye test than stats.
 
Justnetime said:
I think he has a poor AFL IQ for a number of reasons but maybe just one example of ‘debatable’ evidence is the differential of free kicks for and against (= decision making under pressure). Cottrell in 2021 his first year of expectations and 12 games Is a good sample size. His decision making on tackles is something that can be linked with good and bad split second decisions. His 2021 ratio is poor. Another player with a poor ratio and who I think has poor AFL IQ is Casbault. Another is Pitto.

Players who I think are AFL smart like Pendlebury, Docherty and Cerra have good frees for and against splits. There are way more reasons for a smart IQ but they are more on the eye test than stats.
Click to expand...

you make your argument well with sound evidence, however when you look at the names at the top of this List I think you can put to bed the theory that free kicks against = poor AFL IQ

www.zerohanger.com

Most Free Kicks Against | 2021 AFL Statistics

Who has given away the most free kicks in AFL 2021?
www.zerohanger.com www.zerohanger.com
 
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List Mgmt. 2022 Carlton Consensus Best 22

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