List Mgmt. 2022 List Management and trading thread

[Scorpus]

I saw this format on the West Coast board and thought it might help understand our current list position

 

[Danger in Texas]

North will have a new coach that probably will be able to coach this time

I’ll give you that one. They can’t get worse, surely

 

[rabidcrow]

We’ll be bad, but there’s no way we’ll be worse than North or WCE next year. They’re on another level of poor performance

West Coast aren’t. They will rise next year


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[70lethal]

We’ll be bad, but there’s no way we’ll be worse than North or WCE next year. They’re on another level of poor performance

Quite possibly but I feel WCE will be better. They had a horror preseason and massive injury list issues.

 

[marcmurphy3]

Why isn't Scholl getting a game? Is he playing that badly or just out of favour?

 

[Sanders]

Were Greenwood, Keath stuff-ups .....what about Strauchan as a backup Ruck ?

Last year's MSD, Parnell ....is he a bust ?

What about Butts, Murray, and Gollants ? .....all Hamish picks

OK ...I've picked selectively the success's .....

They’re the “successes”????

With friends like you, Hamish won’t need enemies

 

[Sanders]

Then, to draw some correlation, you have to measure our failure rate on picks versus other clubs .....no-one does that, as it doesn't suit the narrative

Have you heard of this thing called “the ladder” it compromises things known as “results”

But yeah, your narrative is that we have no way of knowing!

 

[Sanders]

We’ll be bad, but there’s no way we’ll be worse than North or WCE next year. They’re on another level of poor performance

North will have a competent coach and WCE are in hard tank mode - this year

If you’re assuming WCE will be bad next year, you’re crazy

 

[Dangerousfield]

Quite possibly but I feel WCE will be better. They had a horror preseason and massive injury list issues.

Remember our season has been with hardly any injuries, Norf and WCE have had horror injury runs.

You cannot count Sloane as he is done, was ordinary before the ACL and 33yo coming off a knee and ineffective form aren't giving you a lift. Seed is almost certainly done as well, sad but probably true, needs to retire for his future wellbeing. Neither of those are saving our 2023 onwards

 

[Bearded Clam]

Contracted until end of 2022
Billy Frampton
Elliot Himmelberg
Mitch Hinge
James Rowe
Taylor Walker
James Borlase (R)
Tariek Newchurch (R)
Ben Davis (R)


So if the recent talk is correct Crouch will be a departure

Out:
Crouch
One of Berg/Frampton
Davis(R)
Rowe??

Berg - can go
Rowe -see ya. Not AFL standard
Davis - just flipping get rid of him ffs
Seed - has to be told to retire. Negotiate an out of salary cap pay out involving the AFL given the circumstances. The AFL should actually, if it takes concussion seriously, step in and tell seedsman he’s not gonna be allowed to play in their comp again. Just tell him “Sorry mate, we cant have you take the risk”..
Scholl - trade to blues
Mcrouch - trade to anyone who wants him. Free.
Turner - play him in the AFL side for the remaining 6 or so games of the season.. if he shows little.. fk him off.
Sloane - needs to be encouraged to take a payout and retire. But he wont. Afraid we’re stuck with him next year plodding along clogging up the list.

There’s 7 potential spots freed up.

 

[Bearded Clam]

Why isn't Scholl getting a game? Is he playing that badly or just out of favour?

Probably cause we are trading him to you guys..

No point wasting games on a bloke thats already out the door.

 

[MRB37]

Why isn't Scholl getting a game? Is he playing that badly or just out of favour?

He's not a contested player, so Nicks doesn't want him.

 

[spenze]

Why isn't Scholl getting a game? Is he playing that badly or just out of favour?

Outside mid with the ability to kick either foot 50 metres to the advantage side of our forwards. It just isn't a need for Nicks, he values contested footy and presumably turnovers when we get it. Yes Scholl isn't the best at contested footy but outside accumulators generally aren't but he has speed and a good kick. So we do things like play Matt ****ing Crouch on the wing instead...can't believe we don't win more games

 

[Danger in Texas]

North will have a competent coach and WCE are in hard tank mode - this year

If you’re assuming WCE will be bad next year, you’re crazy

West Coast aren’t. They will rise next year


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You looked at WCE’s list profile? Most of their best players are breaking down and/or over 30, and I can’t see those that aren’t (Kelly, Yeo, Barrass, Sheed) as the types to carry them on their back up the ladder. Their young talent’s a bit like ours too, a lot of unknowns and unprovens.

The thing they have going for them is they have a proven good coach

 

[Archie87]

Why isn't Scholl getting a game? Is he playing that badly or just out of favour?

Nicks simply refuses to play skilful players on a wing so Scholl and others miss out sadly. Hes played our best wingman as a back pocket for most of the year. Its become a spot to play another slow, poorly skilled midfielder.

 

[70lethal]

Were Greenwood, Keath stuff-ups .....what about Strauchan as a backup Ruck ?

Last year's MSD, Parnell ....is he a bust ?

What about Butts, Murray, and Gollants ? .....all Hamish picks

OK ...I've picked selectively the success's .....but likewise you've cherry picked players who "may" fail .....however as I've stated my position, players who are slower developer's, can't be classified as failed picks

When they're delisted ....then yep, they've been failed picks ....and IIRC you were banging the drum on Fogarty being a failed pick

Then, to draw some correlation, you have to measure our failure rate on picks versus other clubs .....no-one does that, as it doesn't suit the narrative

So you haven't named 1 player under pick 40 or a young midfielder. Should be enough said.

Rate the 18 under pick 30 or look at 2016, 2018 and 2019 top draft picks and its an epic fail by the club as a whole.

3 out of 4 years of busts after trading out senior guys and you end up sitting bottom 4.

It's easy to compare against finals sides like Melbourne who changed list manager and got it right after 20 years of failure. WB got it right and Brisbane put 3 good drafts together and became a top 4 side.

 

[70lethal]

You looked at WCE’s list profile? Most of their best players are breaking down and/or over 30, and I can’t see those that aren’t (Kelly, Yeo, Barrass, Sheed) as the types to carry them on their back up the ladder. Their young talent’s a bit like ours too, a lot of unknowns and unprovens.

The thing they have going for them is they have a proven good coach

They had to bring in 4-5 players to top up as they didn't have enough guys to select.
There was talk they should have games postponed because of the lack of selections.
I dont think they can get worse.

If Norf got the right coach and staff and their engine room of JHF, Thomas, LDU, Powell, Philips, Simpkin along with Greenwood then add pick 1 this year and probably a priority pick might surprise a fee sides

 

[Danger in Texas]

They had to bring in 4-5 players to top up as they didn't have enough guys to select.
There was talk they should have games postponed because of the lack of selections.
I dont think they can get worse.

If Norf got the right coach and staff and their engine room of JHF, Thomas, LDU, Powell, Philips, Simpkin along with Greenwood then add pick 1 this year and probably a priority pick might surprise a fee sides

Can't get worse, but I'm not sure how much better they can get just yet, either

North have more problems than their midfield too, they still have a way to go to get out of the depths of mediocrity. That said, a competent coach should help

 

[WaynesWorld19]

So you haven't named 1 player under pick 40 or a young midfielder. Should be enough said.

Rate the 18 under pick 30 or look at 2016, 2018 and 2019 top draft picks and its an epic fail by the club as a whole.

3 out of 4 years of busts after trading out senior guys and you end up sitting bottom 4.

It's easy to compare against finals sides like Melbourne who changed list manager and got it right after 20 years of failure. WB got it right and Brisbane put 3 good drafts together and became a top 4 side.

You've missed the point entirely ....suggest you study other club's Draft Histories & you'll find we stack up very well

1st Round picks are a lot easier to select .....2nd round onwards more difficult ....and that's the true measure of your recruiting

You also have to look at the Draft quality .....the CoVid Drafts have been very difficult, due to so few games being played .....that's not to say we haven't drafted well, TWT on that

Re MELB ....you realise Gawn was Drafted 13 years ago, in the midst of them tanking & being a complete ****show .....Viney was a father/son

I will say though, MELB were a lot more aggressive with their trading in of May & Lever .....this is the area i'm critical of

Drafting IMO we stack up well .....Trading we're too timid ....sometimes you have to identify the player you want, and get the deal done .....particularly if that player type is not available in the Draft

Oh could we do with an Oliver / Petracca .....they just haven't been within coeee of us ....but great we had a red hot go at JHF at #1

 

[Big Crow]

We’ll be bad, but there’s no way we’ll be worse than North or WCE next year. They’re on another level of poor performance

West Coast and North will be likely be significantly better next season. I can see them both potentially going past us.

We are a good chance to win the spoon next year.

 

[Big Crow]

You've missed the point entirely ....suggest you study other club's Draft Histories & you'll find we stack up very well

1st Round picks are a lot easier to select .....2nd round onwards more difficult ....and that's the true measure of your recruiting

I hear what you’re saying, but would contest that although 1st rounders are easier to get right they are also the most important in terms of building towards a premiership. It’s your guns that win you flags.

So then, with the aim being to win premierships isn’t first round results the best measure of drafting quality?

 

[chrisso crow]

Why would they need to ask him to stay?

He’s contracted. They can simply force him to stay if they really wanted him..

This sounds like the club desperately trying to make it sound like they want crouch to stay so as to keep his trade value up..

If they do the opposite and instead make it sound like they want to get him off the list, then his already low value becomes even worse and they might also be asked to pay part of his wage at his new club next year!..

I think it sounds more like they (Nicks at least) legitimately want him to stay and play in the best 22. Everything they do backs this up or he wouldn't be getting recalled for the second time this year. Nicks has repeatedly said that he can be an impactful AFL player again.

This is why I've said that he needs to be gone, the temptation of playing him needs to be completely removed.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

I hear what you’re saying, but would contest that although 1st rounders are easier to get right they are also the most important in terms of building a premiership list.

On this front, for the past five years of drafting we fail the grade miserably.

Thilthorpe a failure ?
Rachele a failure ?
Both too early to tell

Soligo IMO will make it #36
Pedlar IMO will make it and be a star player

McAsey ....again, too early on a KPP .....again, Gawn for his 1st 5 years did zippo ....under the boards measurement criteria, Gawn was a failed pick

Schoenberg IMO will make it

Fogarty ....do you consider him a failed pick ....seems if I ask this 6 weeks ago, there'd be an 80% vote for yes ...if I asked now, that % would be sitting at 50% .....ask next year ??

My point is, we want immediate superstars, complete players by year 3, or they're a failure ......that's not how developing players works

Everyone quotes the Superstars success's of other clubs .....but most clubs only have 1-2 , gathered over a 6-8 year period .....no one remembers all the failures from these clubs

 

[Big Crow]

Thilthorpe a failure ?
Rachele a failure ?
Both too early to tell

Soligo IMO will make it #36
Pedlar IMO will make it and be a star player

McAsey ....again, too early on a KPP .....again, Gawn for his 1st 5 years did zippo ....under the boards measurement criteria, Gawn was a failed pick

Schoenberg IMO will make it

Fogarty ....do you consider him a failed pick ....seems if I ask this 6 weeks ago, there'd be an 80% vote for yes ...if I asked now, that % would be sitting at 50% .....ask next year ??

My point is, we want immediate superstars, complete players by year 3, or they're a failure ......that's not how developing players works

Everyone quotes the Superstars success's of other clubs .....but most clubs only have 1-2 , gathered over a 6-8 year period .....no one remembers all the failures from these clubs

Thilthorpe and especially Rachele could be those players. Here’s hoping. I like what I see from both, especially Rachele. Soligo looks to have it as well.

McAsey was an especially dumb first round pick, we have KPD from the back end of the draft or rookie picks who are far better.

Schoenberg should be ok, I like him but but we’re not talking a top 20 midfielder in the league.

Fogarty showing some good signs, here’s hoping it continues. Our best hope from the pre TT draft years.

Problem is, even if all of the above go as well as we could hope it’s not a flag winning team is it. Keep in mind that the ones you’ve mentioned are the best we’ve drafted from this period. We’ve not mentioned the worst.

 

[70lethal]

You've missed the point entirely ....suggest you study other club's Draft Histories & you'll find we stack up very well

1st Round picks are a lot easier to select .....2nd round onwards more difficult ....and that's the true measure of your recruiting

You also have to look at the Draft quality .....the CoVid Drafts have been very difficult, due to so few games being played .....that's not to say we haven't drafted well, TWT on that

Re MELB ....you realise Gawn was Drafted 13 years ago, in the midst of them tanking & being a complete ****show .....Viney was a father/son didn't actually.

I will say though, MELB were a lot more aggressive with their trading in of May & Lever .....this is the area i'm critical of

Drafting IMO we stack up well .....Trading we're too timid ....sometimes you have to identify the player you want, and get the deal done .....particularly if that player type is not available in the Draft

Oh could we do with an Oliver / Petracca .....they just haven't been within coeee of us ....but great we had a red hot go at JHF at #1

No I didn't actually and Hamish stacks up with he a bottom 4 side.

I have studied other clubs in detail and the auccessful ones in the past 20 years have built gun midfields with there highest picks 1st and generally taller explosive guys.

We have a generally slow unskilled mosquito fleet of battlers.

You avoid commenting on 3 full drafts where the majority are busts.

With Melbourne I'm talking since Taylor took over . You would say 1 top pick in Weiderman looks ordinary in the past 8 years.

Brayshaw, Petracca, Oliver, Pickett, Jackson, Sparrow are just a few of the successes.

You say 1st Round picks are easy yet none of ours are setting the world on fire.
Compare Jackson to McAsey.
Let's go Jones and McHenry to Sparrow

So out of the successes you mention of Hamish, Gollant isn't getting a game in a bottom 4 side, Murray is only competing with Frampton and McAsey and Worrell aren't in the equation, so let's not get to ahead of ourselves.

TT they felt the need to drop after 1 game and Stachan can't get ahead of ROB.

When you had 18 picks inside 30 and your midfield consists of Rookie, Rookie, Rookie, it's fair to say its a clusterf**k when your sitting bottom 3.

Don't try and polish the turd that our recruiting and list management is.

 

[rabidcrow]

You've missed the point entirely ....suggest you study other club's Draft Histories & you'll find we stack up very well

1st Round picks are a lot easier to select .....2nd round onwards more difficult ....and that's the true measure of your recruiting

You also have to look at the Draft quality .....the CoVid Drafts have been very difficult, due to so few games being played .....that's not to say we haven't drafted well, TWT on that

Re MELB ....you realise Gawn was Drafted 13 years ago, in the midst of them tanking & being a complete ****show .....Viney was a father/son

I will say though, MELB were a lot more aggressive with their trading in of May & Lever .....this is the area i'm critical of

Drafting IMO we stack up well .....Trading we're too timid ....sometimes you have to identify the player you want, and get the deal done .....particularly if that player type is not available in the Draft

Oh could we do with an Oliver / Petracca .....they just haven't been within coeee of us ....but great we had a red hot go at JHF at #1

That just isn’t correct. The “successes” you have highlighted are by no means locked into good long AFL careers. They have shown some signs - I doubt Murray gets a game at anyone bar North and Gollant maybe 2-3 clubs. I would suggest it is easier to get those successes at the later picks - as you are generally selecting an attribute you think could develop (athleticism (Gollant), speed (Newchurch), size(Murray), great kicking skills (Parnell)

First round picks we don’t seem to pick anything other than competitiveness. I for the life of me can’t see how Ned got on an AFL list - I appreciate he was tipped to go around 20 - but has no one wood. Not real quick, a below average kick, small, no evasive skills
Jones similar although I can see at least why you would pick him.
McAsey - for a top 10 pick doesn’t seem to have a one wood either. Just compare to Chapman and Gibcus - even DGB over the last few years

Massive misses that will extend our rebuild by a couple of years


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