List Mgmt. 2022 List Management and trading thread

[Scorpus]

I saw this format on the West Coast board and thought it might help understand our current list position

 

[WeedsMullet84]

They don't impact our list sizes, but there's no point in keeping them if the coaches don't think they have a future at AFL level.

There is merit to keeping the SANFL team competitive, especially if;

A) It doesn’t drastically affect our salary cap
B) The Cat B player fills a role/need

I honestly think Newchurch is a straight-up bust, but with Worrell likely having more AFL game time, and Frampton being traded, Borlase is probably a need either way.




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[rabidcrow]

Why wouldnt we keep them regardless?.. we can still use them as sanfl players.. and who knows it might click for one or both of them with another preseason and further development..

Its not like we havent got salary cap space either..

Pretty they keep both. Another year of development and see how they go. We don’t have any KPD depth and even though Borlase isn’t great he provides a solid option for the Sanfl team and a break glass fallback for AFL - given we have hardly any new players coming in

And Newchurch is so electric with his speed he is worth 1 more pre season in my view


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[WeedsMullet84]

Nah, im talking about guys that we would target as Cat B rookies to replace newchurch and borlase if we delisted one or both of them..

know of any?.. theres none in our academy that are sticking out is there?

So not Keeler or Mckenzie who clearly wont be anywhere near becoming rookies!

Would really love us to grab an Irish player one of these days (one that shows some promise, at least)


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[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Of course it's not.

The interceptor behind the ball is one of the most attacking positions - scores from turnovers are incredibly important, and that quarterback role that sets up rebound is essential.

Why didn't he play the crucial interceptor role at the start of the season?

 

[WeedsMullet84]

These are NOT reasons for retaining a player:

• They are a Cat B rookie, who doesn't otherwise affect our draft position.
• They are a Cat B rookie, and we don't have any other Cat B rookies inbound to replace them.
• They provide SANFL depth.
• We can afford to keep them.

This is the ONLY reason for retaining a player who is out of contract:

• The coaches think they could have a future at AFL level.

Well that’s your opinion


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[George CantStandYa]

Why didn't he play the crucial interceptor role at the start of the season?

GWS and Carlton losses and we got spooked.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

He never played full back. He played a kick behind the ball, where he would lead rebound attack from a turnover through his marking ability and his fantastic footskills.

His opponents would constantly drag him as deep in defence as they could because obviously that's where he can do the least damage

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

"Wings are out of the play" has to be one of the more laughable excuses for playing Dawson in defence that I've heard.

Langdon, Amon, Isaac Smith, Seedsman, even Dawson at times himself for Sydney last year, to name a few, have all dominated off a wing in recent seasons.

Dawson should have been an easy positional switch for Seed after sadly losing him this year - at least play Dawson there occasionally as part of his rotations if Nicks wanted to maintain some of Dawson's drive from D50.

To be fair, wings are out of the play for us because our midfielders are woeful at distributing the ball from the clinches

Hack kick forward is our only method of moving the ball. Maintaining structure around stoppages and spreading from the contest is not something we even bother attempting

 

[crow2crow]

I thought Borlase was pretty good today. Comfortably in our best 6 players IMO


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rewatch how many goals he single handed coughed up

he is not a defender

 

[LoBu]

And this is the response of someone who hasnt got a decent response.

Go ahead.. point out whats wrong with what he said. Break it down. Give us the reasoning behind your decision to just simply (and lazily) brand it a rant..

Thats the problem with this forum. Theres a fair few people who read criticisms of the club and simply cannot handle it.. so they lash out with “oh, he’s just a hater” or “wow, what a rant” or “maybe you should go support the power” blah, blah, blah..

But what these same people rarely ever do is provide a reasoned response pointing out what they find wrong with the comment..

Mostly because whats written is actually correct and to come back with a response to that would require them to write a whole heap of nonsense that isnt backed by very recent known history.

The last 5 years of this club and the decisions its made around list management, coaching, drafting, on-field strategy, selection and player development have been utterly deplorable.. some of the worst in the league..

and no finals showings for 5 years and the last three years finishing in the bottom 5, including a spoon, are the end result.

We went from a GF apearance to half a decade of mediocrity.

That is disgusting.

It was more just out of the blue, late on a Saturday night, no context. There's a thread for that, we are really sh*t, this is the trading and list management thread.

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[LoBu]

Silvers said in The Australian that we want to push for finals in 2023.

Rebuild is over Rankine is the final piece

The lack of patience from supporters demands a quick rebuild. That many on this board are so hyper aggressive to all decisions and personal, players, coaches, administrators and board members, demonstrates the pressure they are under and if we took to the draft instead of Dawson, Rankine + what is yet to come either this year or next, the calling for blood and pitchforks at West Lakes would be literal.

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[Crow till I die]

I think borlase is gonsky that was horrendous today
Possibly could play as a mobile small ruck but no way is he ever playing AFL as KPD

What?. He had a good game today

 

[FR0GGY]

He never played full back. He played a kick behind the ball, where he would lead rebound attack from a turnover through his marking ability and his fantastic footskills.

Putting him on a wing means he spends a lot of the game on the fat side, just watching the ball 75m away.

Wingmen just don't get that many disposals, which obviously limits how much influence he would be able to have.

He absolutely played back there, unless of course you think players are kicking 80 odd meters regularly. Go and watch the gws game.

 

[Vader]

36 games in 6 years.. so average of 6 games a year.

If he continues at this rate and does another 6 years (highly unlikely) he wont even make 75 games..

Thats barely an AFL career..

Say what you like - he has shown himself to be AFL standard, albeit not consistently.

 

[Vader]

There is merit to keeping the SANFL team competitive, especially if;

A) It doesn’t drastically affect our salary cap
B) The Cat B player fills a role/need

I honestly think Newchurch is a straight-up bust, but with Worrell likely having more AFL game time, and Frampton being traded, Borlase is probably a need either way.

Fine, then sign them as SANFL list extension players (or whatever they're called). They shouldn't be on our AFL list if the coaches don't see them as having an AFL future. If they do see a future for them, then they should be retained. Filling our SANFL team is not a valid reason for retaining them.

 

[1970crow]

His opponents would constantly drag him as deep in defence as they could because obviously that's where he can do the least damage

Nah, played right into our hands. Other coaches are just clueless.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

What’s behind AFL clubs signing players to very long-term contracts​

At the height of his powers in 2009, when he was arguably the most valuable player in the AFL, the captain of the team unbeaten on top of the ladder and being courted by an expansion club about to enter the league in the region in which he grew up, Nick Riewoldt signed a four-year contract extension with St Kilda, taking him to just shy of his 31st birthday.

A year earlier, when Jonathan Brown was 26 and similarly at his pomp as one of the league’s most commanding key forwards, there was tut-tutting about his demand for a five-year deal from the Brisbane Lions.

How times have changed. As it stands, more than 50 players around the AFL are currently signed to deals of five years or longer. If anything this figure looks likely to increase.

How has the landscape been shifted so dramatically? We canvassed current and former list managers and player managers to understand how long-term no longer seems that long.

A look at the list of players currently signed to deals of five years or longer shows that most – although not all – players who are on these sorts of deals have done so around or before they become free agents. Oliver, Curnow and Mills have all in recent months agreed to monster long-term deals more than a year out from free agency

Jordan Dawson

12

Jordan Dawson

Age

28

Ht

190cm

Wt

91kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.0

4star

K

11.4

4star

HB

5.7

4star

M

4.8

5star

T

2.8

4star

CL

0.6

3star

D

15.7

4star

K

10.9

4star

HB

4.9

3star

M

2.9

3star

T

2.0

3star

CL

0.4

3star

D

11.8

3star

K

7.8

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

5.0

5star

T

3.0

5star

CL

0.6

3star

signed a five-year deal with Adelaide last season, traded to the Crows when merely out-of-contract and not yet a free agent. Taranto would be another in that boat.

As one senior club list management official noted this week, these deals then normalise seven-year contracts. The official quipped that Hopper would “peer over the fence” and see the types of deals being dished out to his teammates, some of whom he has outperformed over recent years, and feel he is owed that level of commitment.

One club attributed some of the massive deals to the AFL’s underspend mechanism, initiated in 2014, which allows clubs to spend up to 105 per cent of the salary cap in any given season, provided they have underspent in the previous two years

Another factor that has contributed to the trend is a general hunger for security from players. As one ex-list manager suggested, players tend to be comfortable taking slightly less per year than their top market value to lock away their long-term futures

Shuffling the cash​

However there is more to it. Some clubs bank on sizeable increases to the salary cap under the next collective bargaining agreement. The rationale is that by the time a player reaches years five, six and seven of their deal, they may actually be undervalued relative to the cap

CODE Sports

CODE Sports

www.codesports.com.au

 

[GreyCrow]

Clubs
We keep a player we want
We are banking on % increases flattening the contract out
We can build a playing style/game plan around player
(this supposes the coach is on board)
We can move the player on after year 5

Player
Long term financial security
Maximise earning potential - injured or not
Stay at one club - one city - stability
Prepare networks for after football life

The negatives are if the player gets a LTI - all the cost goes to the club
Player can ''coast''
Player can be traded (subject to agreement)
Player is the one who cops the negative feedback from supporters

The biggest negative is if the initial contract terms are weighted too much in the players favour and injury or a downturn in form happens early in the contract period

 

[WaynesWorld19]

During last year's trade period, some clubs enquired with the league about whether they could directly pay contracts of players at other clubs in exchange for a draft pick.

They weren't allowed, but it is clearly where clubs see things heading.

As an example, it could allow Essendon to use its salary cap room to pay $500,000 of Luke Parker

26

Luke Parker

Age

33

Ht

183cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

24.2

5star

K

12.6

5star

HB

11.6

5star

M

3.8

4star

T

5.6

5star

CL

5.8

5star

D

22.1

5star

K

12.3

5star

HB

9.9

5star

M

3.9

4star

T

5.0

5star

CL

5.5

5star

D

21.2

5star

K

11.4

4star

HB

9.8

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

8.0

5star

CL

5.2

5star

's deal at Sydney in exchange for one of the Swans' first-round picks. It would alleviate any salary cap pressure faced at the Swans, make use of the Dons' money and also see them buy a pick.

it is the clear next step in the trade marketplace.

TWOMEY: The new bargaining tool set to shape Trade Period

Salary cap space is set to become a key point of negotiation for clubs to get deals done in the Continental Tyres AFL Trade Period

www.afl.com.au

 

[maxlilly]

Fine, then sign them as SANFL list extension players (or whatever they're called). They shouldn't be on our AFL list if the coaches don't see them as having an AFL future. If they do see a future for them, then they should be retained. Filling our SANFL team is not a valid reason for retaining them.

Our biggest issue this year is a lack of draft picks.
I don't think Borlase is AFL level but we aren't going to get a better player at pick 100 this year than what we have in him already.
So he stays on the list at least for another year

 

[WaynesWorld19]

We forget how old some of these players we bag are ......Gollant played the season as a 20 YO .....turns 21 today

Pretty good year, for a 20 YO .....obviously strength is his MIO .....particularly strength in his hands .....he needs a squishy ball !

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Our biggest issue this year is a lack of draft picks.
I don't think Borlase is AFL level but we aren't going to get a better player at pick 100 this year than what we have in him already.
So he stays on the list at least for another year

Borlaise only turned 20, 2 months ago .....I shared your opinion, however he did some good things on the weekend, in a Final, that warrants another year IMO .....at his age

It requires a bigger leap of faith on Newchurch ......how could so many posters believe he warranted an AFL game this year .....not even close to AFL standard .....doesn't work to get to the right positions, for a player of his type

 

[Thetrader15]

Borlaise only turned 20, 2 months ago .....I shared your opinion, however he did some good things on the weekend, in a Final, that warrants another year IMO .....at his age

It requires a bigger leap of faith on Newchurch ......how could so many posters believe he warranted an AFL game this year .....not even close to AFL standard .....doesn't work to get to the right positions, for a player of his type

Newchurch only turned 20, 2 months ago...give the kid a chance, no need to put a line through him yet. I think he's one of those players who needs to change a couple of things about his game and he can really make progress. Workrate is probably one, and more top speed bursts.

 

[Vader]

Our biggest issue this year is a lack of draft picks.
I don't think Borlase is AFL level but we aren't going to get a better player at pick 100 this year than what we have in him already.
So he stays on the list at least for another year

Borlase is a Cat B rookie - as such he is completely irrelevant to any discussions about draft picks, and our ability to fill list positions... unless you're suggesting he should be upgraded to the senior list?

There is one question which needs to be answered - and only one question: do the coaches think that he has what it takes (if he continues to develop) to make it as an AFL player? If the answer is yes, then he stays on the Cat B rookie list for another 12 months; if not, he should be delisted.

 

[DJ75]

Newchurch only turned 20, 2 months ago...give the kid a chance, no need to put a line through him yet. I think he's one of those players who needs to change a couple of things about his game and he can really make progress. Workrate is probably one, and more top speed bursts.

My big issue regarding players like Newchurch and how we develop them, is that we take them away from their most dangerous positions.
For some reason, we are convinced that all small forwards need to be on the wing for 90% of the game. We keep pushing them up the ground at all opportunities.
Look at Stengle. If he played for us he would have kicked a quarter of the goals he has. Simply because he wouldn't be near the goals. We would be jidging him on metres covered and pressure acts up the ground.

Watch our SANFL or AFL games - the amount of times the ball is banged in long, we have a pack jump for it and ZERO smalls on the ground is ridiculous. No small forwards to crumb the ball because they were all at the contest on the wing.
Look at our setup for a centre bounce. We have our 3 smallest forwards line up across the centre square and charge in, while our 3 talls all stand near each other as deep forwards. Wouldn't it make sense to have a small forward near them?

The point is that we don't see small forwards as goal kickers. Maybe if we do, and we keep Newchurch hovering around goals with an occasional burst up the field, then we will see more of his best attribute??