List Mgmt. 2023 List Management thread

[Snuffaluphagus]

Mod notice after Mr Bob did a lot of annoying work in moving days of posts out of here. As we are heading into offseason, this thread is for 2023 list management only. Getting upset on previous trades can be taken to the vent thread. Lets keep this thread on track in the part of the year it's actually relevant

 

[go_the_dockers]

Heh…now we see what the attitude Is if Pickett and Naughton become available. Two class players, youngish, areas of real need…yes or no?

The question for me is how much do we need to give up, and how far from a top 4 side are we.

It would be hard to say no pickett. But we probably should hit the draft unless we get him for a steal.

For a future 1st only I would say yes. He falls into the Rankin and Dawson category

 

[Taylor]

Short term gains, now it is long term pain.

And we are in worse spot.

Name the players who would be stars for us now if we hadn't left them in the WAFL to play Hamling, Wilson, Kersten, Colyer, McCarthy, Matera.

If the reason we would be in a better position is the illusion that we would have been a worse side, with nicer draft picks.... we wouldn't have signed the likes of Young, Serong to long term deals and they'd be gone like Cerra.

 

[go_the_dockers]

you also left out theMcCarthy trade…why is that?

because we ended up with Logue, Darcy and Ryan out of it too?

That was 2016 I think. I only went back 5 years.

Our drafting saved us, and the fact it was a bad draft. Still not sure it was a good trade.

 

[trentjac]

Heh…now we see what the attitude Is if Pickett and Naughton become available. Two class players, youngish, areas of real need…yes or no?

It’s a pipe dream as we have zero capital to get either

 

[go_the_dockers]

Name the players who would be stars for us now if we hadn't left them in the WAFL to play Hamling, Wilson, Kersten, Colyer, McCarthy, Matera.

If the reason we would be in a better position is the illusion that we would have been a worse side, with nicer draft picks.... we wouldn't have signed the likes of Young, Serong to long term deals and they'd be gone like Cerra.

King, Rozee, Junior Rioli, Tim Kelly, Ash Johnson. Or any other who was not drafted.

I think with King and Rozee, players would have been quicker to sign.

 

[Docker82]

Never really thought any trade bar Hogan have really set back this rebuild tbh. Every other trade wasn’t expensive and most players played about as well as you’d expect relative to cost.

I personally wouldn’t have traded for Colyer and Matera and made that quite clear at the time. Can’t remember what I thought about Kersten. Was in favour of most of our other trades at the time.

My view however remains that we should’ve drafted a key forward early in the rebuild. Ben King

34

Ben King

Age

25

Ht

202cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.2

2star

K

5.0

2star

HB

2.2

2star

M

3.5

4star

T

0.5

3star

G

1.3

5star

D

7.5

2star

K

5.6

2star

HB

1.9

1star

M

3.6

4star

T

0.3

1star

G

1.5

5star

D

6.8

2star

K

4.4

2star

HB

2.4

3star

M

3.2

4star

T

0.2

3star

G

1.0

4star

wouldn’t have stayed at Freo but Todd Marshall

4

Todd Marshall

Age

27

Ht

198cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.0

2star

K

6.4

3star

HB

2.5

2star

M

3.3

3star

T

2.5

4star

G

1.1

4star

D

8.9

2star

K

7.1

3star

HB

1.8

1star

M

3.8

4star

T

3.0

4star

G

1.1

5star

D

9.6

3star

K

5.6

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

2.4

4star

G

1.6

5star

and/or Aaron Naughton

33

Aaron Naughton

Age

26

Ht

196cm

Wt

92kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.7

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

3.7

3star

M

4.9

5star

T

1.8

4star

G

0.8

4star

D

6.3

1star

K

4.0

1star

HB

2.3

2star

M

2.5

3star

T

0.8

1star

G

0.5

4star

D

12.8

4star

K

8.8

4star

HB

4.0

3star

M

4.8

5star

T

1.2

3star

G

0.0

1star

probably would’ve imo despite us not being their first choice pre-draft.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

King, Rozee, Junior Rioli, Tim Kelly, Ash Johnson. Or any other who was not drafted.

I think with King and Rozee, players would have been quicker to sign.

I know you’re big on this but there isn’t one club that doesn’t trade players in during a rebuild. Maybe we could have been better at getting a FA or two rather than trading but that’s pretty damn hard to do for a club like us.

On the topic of Hogan, I flip between what I feel but I think I hate Hogan for that more than anyone. The club should or could have been stronger in saying no but damn if that’s not hard to do in the situation. I can almost guarantee you if he goes to WC he’s still there and kicking 50+ goals a season so it feels like it was a lose/lose situation. Depending on how you feel I think either Hogan was/is just a gigantic ****head for taking us for a ride or the club (Bell) is weak for not being able to get more out of troubled players.

 

[G Mus]

Cannot understand why forward talent wasn’t prioritised in the rebuild. If you arrive in the final year of a rebuild and you are down one key defender, or one wingman or a ruck or medium defender, even an extra mid, it’s pretty easy to source a cheap option that can fill a gap. People like Liam Jones, Conor McKenna, John Noble all examples of very competent AFL players available in recent seasons that were got for peanuts in the middle to back half of the ground.
It’s the guys that put the ball between the big sticks that are hard to find. They the players at a premium that everyone jealously guards and ask for a kings ransom when they request a trade.
If you keep drafting forwards and high quality, big bodied inside mids, and then shuffle the big guys that aren’t good enough to kick goals at the level required to defence, you will have a decent team eventually.
Forwards, forwards, forwards.

It’s where drafting best available ****s you over, yeah they may be the most talented guys but it’s a position easily filled

 

[go_the_dockers]

I know you’re big on this but there isn’t one club that doesn’t trade players in during a rebuild. Maybe we could have been better at getting a FA or two rather than trading but that’s pretty damn hard to do for a club like us.

On the topic of Hogan, I flip between what I fee l but I think I hate Hogan for that more than anyone. The club should or could have been stronger in saying no but damn if that’s not hard to do in the situation. I can almost guarantee you if he goes to WC he’s still there and kicking 50+ goals a season so it feels like it was a lose/lose situation. Depending on how you feel I think either Hogan was/is just a gigantic *head for taking us for a ride or the club (Bell) is weak for not being able to get more out of troubled players.

Hawks haven't brought anyone in.
Adelaide brought in two players Rankine and Dawson. If we did this, I would be happy.
I could tolerate it if brought in good players, or did not give up much and they were best 22.

Bringing in players who are not best 22 rarely works. Matera, Clark, Colyer, Acres were all not best 22 at there club.

Lobb is the one that annoys the most, paying an average player 700k who never kicked over 30 goals a year was shocking. And giving up picks. I would rather look at WAFL and SANFL players than these players.

With Hogan, it was the wrong year. That was a super draft.

I have no faith in Fremantle picking the right player. If we could identify talent, were more selective with who we picked it would be OK. Our criteria is are they from WA. If yes, then offers 3 years.

If it was pickett, I would be happy to bring him in. He is a top 5 player for us. Fills a need.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Hawks haven't brought anyone in.
Adelaide brought in two players Rankine and Dawson. If we did this, I would be happy.
I could tolerate it if brought in good players, or did not give up much and they were best 22.

Bringing in players who are not best 22 rarely works. Matera, Clark, Colyer, Acres were all not best 22 at there club.

Lobb is the one that annoys the most, paying an average player 700k who never kicked over 30 goals a year was shocking.

With Hogan, it was the wrong year. That was a super draft.

I have no faith in Fremantle picking the right player. If we could identify talent, were more selective with who we picked it would be OK. Our criteria is are they from WA. If yes, then offers 3 years.

If it was pickett, I would be happy to bring him in. He is a top 5 player for us. Fills a need.

Hawks have brought in Impey, Amon and Frost off the top off my head in the last few years.

Pickett is an interesting one where if we continue to be shit, at least our future 1st would be enough for him. At the very ****ing least, in the fantasy land where we get him, the club can surely have some balls and tell Melbourne to take a future 1st and move on.

 

[go_the_dockers]

Hawks have brought in Impey, Amon and Frost off the top off my head in the last few years.

Pickett is an interesting one where if we continue to be s*t, at least our future 1st would be enough for him. At the very ****** least, in the fantasy land where we get him, the club can surely have some balls and tell Melbourne to take a future 1st and move on.

Impey was before Mitchell. Still topping up.

Amon free agent, frost was free.

Our lack of balls annoys me. We overpaid for jackson

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Impey was before Mitchell. Still topping up.

Amon free agent, frost was free.

Our lack of balls annoys me. We overpaid for jackson

Surely if your discounting all trades before Mitchell as topping up then the same applies to us from before JL. We were just restumping and rewiring after all…

Frost was a similar cost as all the other cheap players we brought in. They’ve also brought in Wingard, Lynch, Hartigan, Lynch, Meek, Scrimshaw and Stephens since 2018. Every single club trades in players during a rebuild

 

[go_the_dockers]

Surely if your discounting all trades before Mitchell as topping up then the same applies to us from before JL. We were just restumping and rewiring after all…

Frost was a similar cost as all the other cheap players we brought in. They’ve also brought in Wingard, Lynch, Hartigan, Lynch, Meek, Scrimshaw and Stephens since 2018. Every single club trades in players during a rebuild

Ross committed to the rebuild.
Clarkson was topping up. And chasing a flag.

Are you really defending Kersten, Matera, Colyer trades. They were never going to be best 22.

How can you defend the Lobb and Hogan trades?

If we could pick players I would be OK.

 

[Midnite65]

Hawks haven't brought anyone in.
Adelaide brought in two players Rankine and Dawson. If we did this, I would be happy.
I could tolerate it if brought in good players, or did not give up much and they were best 22.

Bringing in players who are not best 22 rarely works. Matera, Clark, Colyer, Acres were all not best 22 at there club.

Lobb is the one that annoys the most, paying an average player 700k who never kicked over 30 goals a year was shocking. And giving up picks. I would rather look at WAFL and SANFL players than these players.

With Hogan, it was the wrong year. That was a super draft.

I have no faith in Fremantle picking the right player. If we could identify talent, were more selective with who we picked it would be OK. Our criteria is are they from WA. If yes, then offers 3 years.

If it was pickett, I would be happy to bring him in. He is a top 5 player for us. Fills a need.

The Cats have brought a lot of players in.

 

[Bicco]

I'm not sure if this for here or the vent thread but it is very much List Management related.
I've banged on about the club (and many supporters) always looking to the future without looking at right now. With hindsight our list last year was actually very good but they greatly over achieved. But that group (again in hindsight) had a special 'something'. A positivity, a belief and at times some great cohesion. It was a failure of our list managers not to recognise it at the time and keep them together. Logue and Acres are massive losses. We've lost them and Mundy from our best 18. That's 15%, and we're clearly playing 15% worse then last year, without putting it up against any metric other than overall performance.
Great teams aren't just made of good players, they have a great connection built over time. We keep losing 1st 18 players. We've done well to cover some of them but this year our depth hasn't come up. Jackson and Omeara for Lobb and Mundy are, on the surface, reasonable swaps. Logue and Acres for Hughes and Henry is a real problem.
I think the club oversold how far we went last year and we as fans had too high hopes for this year. We lost a lot of experience last year. We are very young now. Bottom 8 should be expected. But the list managers have erred thinking Hughes and Henry could do a job as well as ther predecessors.
But not capturing the spirit of last year is a problem our club often does. We try to be too smart. We probably over think things as a club. We may be looking too much at spreadsheets understanding what makes a good team, without looking right in front of us.
We've gone through 6 years to be here. It doesn't feel good enough. I know we're young, but we were young. We're young again without having 'built' anything during our last rebuild. This team better show something in the last half of the year. Otherwise we will have at least another year of this to go.
We were getting towards a good list last year but it feels like we've gone backwards. Especially with regard to the quality of output from the players on the field.

 

[fnerd]

the club can surely have some balls and tell Melbourne to take a future 1st and move on.

Yea you d think that wouldn’t ya ?… but history would suggest not a hope in hell -well certainly not when bells calling the shots .

There’s more than enough evidence to suggest he is and viewed as ,nothing but a little bitch at the trade table.
Seriously outside of GC (who every one pushes around) and the saints with Brad hill(traditionally another piss weak club at the trade table) he’s been pawned during trade negotiations.

It’s why I shudder to think what he ll do for someone like Pickett or Naughton.
He’s set a precedent, especially with Melbourne and with Jackson (likewise hogan)

You reckon when he goes to Jason Taylor with an offer of only f1 for Pickett he accepts it?.

No chance - he knows Bell /freo will cave and likewise for Naughton.. if Jackson’s worth 2 first plus a high second (one of the most expensive trades since Judd ) then what do you you reckon the dogs will ask for Naughton?, who’s not only still relatively young but has the proven performances year in year out compared to Jackson who let’s face it was and still is based on potential

 

[Alfonz]

The Cats have brought a lot of players in.

Indeed, but it just shows how inept our efforts have been.

Smith - Proven star wing and no issues off field. Cost them nothing (FA).
Cameron - Proven superstar and no issues off field. Gave up pick 7 equivalent.
Dangerfield - Proven superstar and no issues off field. Gave up pick 6 equivalent.
Stengle - issues off field but cost them nothing
Not sure on Stanley, Rohan and Tuohy, but I bet it didn't cost them much.

These trades make Bell look like a complete and utter clown considering the points value of what he paid for Jackson is more than what Geelong paid for Cameron and Dangerfield combined. Dangerfield was helped by his FA status, but good lord.

Oh by the way, the first part of the Jackson trade is a 195cm key forward who has kicked 7 goals in the last 2 weeks in the VFL, and kicked 7 goals against WA last year.

 

[Van_Dyke]

Ross committed to the rebuild.
Clarkson was topping up. And chasing a flag.

Are you really defending Kersten, Matera, Colyer trades. They were never going to be best 22.

How can you defend the Lobb and Hogan trades?

If we could pick players I would be OK.

Kersten, Matera and Colyer all cost so little I'd happily defend those trades, they were all essentially free hits, and of the players they were 'blocking' from getting a spot, can't think of any of them then working out elsewhere.

 

[Midnite65]

Indeed, but it just shows how inept our efforts have been.

Smith - Proven star wing and no issues off field. Cost them nothing (FA).
Cameron - Proven superstar and no issues off field. Gave up pick 7 equivalent.
Dangerfield - Proven superstar and no issues off field. Gave up pick 6 equivalent.
Stengle - issues off field but cost them nothing
Not sure on Stanley, Rohan and Tuohy, but I bet it didn't cost them much.

These trades make Bell look like a complete and utter clown considering the points value of what he paid for Jackson is more than what Geelong paid for Cameron and Dangerfield combined. Dangerfield was helped by his FA status, but good lord.

Oh by the way, the first part of the Jackson trade is a 195cm key forward who has kicked 7 goals in the last 2 weeks in the VFL, and kicked 7 goals against WA last year.

The laid back lifestyle of Geelong and being so close to Melbourne gives them an incredibly massive advantage in attracting players.

 

[apuchar]

Indeed, but it just shows how inept our efforts have been.

Smith - Proven star wing and no issues off field. Cost them nothing (FA).
Cameron - Proven superstar and no issues off field. Gave up pick 7 equivalent.
Dangerfield - Proven superstar and no issues off field. Gave up pick 6 equivalent.
Stengle - issues off field but cost them nothing
Not sure on Stanley, Rohan and Tuohy, but I bet it didn't cost them much.

These trades make Bell look like a complete and utter clown considering the points value of what he paid for Jackson is more than what Geelong paid for Cameron and Dangerfield combined. Dangerfield was helped by his FA status, but good lord.

Oh by the way, the first part of the Jackson trade is a 195cm key forward who has kicked 7 goals in the last 2 weeks in the VFL, and kicked 7 goals against WA last year.

Name one of those top 4 players who would have come to Freo. Stengle we couldn't have taken, not after our recent history with troubled players.
As for Jackson, most "experts" didn't think we paid enough.

 

[Superkoops]

How can you defend the Lobb and Hogan trades?

I’m happy to defend Lobb trade. Everyone talks about giving up pick 11 but we only slid back to 14. 19 was handed on via Brisbane from Lachie Neale trade. On point value the trade was a mid to late second. We then got four years and 66 games (16 games per year). In year one he had to take on no. 1 ruck for fair chunk of the first half of the year due to injuries to Darcy/Sandilands.

Trade summary
2018: Picks 11 and 19 to the Giants in exchange for Lobb and picks 14, 43 and 47. Freo then packaged up picks 43, 47 and 55 to send to North Melbourne in exchange for pick 31.

Effectively 11, 19 > Lobb, 14, 31

2019-2022: 66 games (79 goals)

2022: Lobb traded for Pick 30 and F2 (tied to WB). They then traded the F2 (tied to WB) along with Meek for JOM and F4 (tied to Hawks). The F4 was then traded to North Melbourne for pick 43.

Effectively: Lobb, Meek> JOM, 30, 43

To me that is a trade that worked out very reasonably for us.

No one can defend Hogan Trade (Ben King and Sparrow).

Also agree that moderate cost trades like McCarthy, Bennell, Matera, Kersten did not work. Each had a number of issues and really didn’t pass the good and hard-working character test.

Colyer was reasonable. Conca ok. Aish, BHill, Wilson, Clark all good value for about early to mid 2nd round value.

In saying all this - my belief has always been keep early picks and go to the draft. Use second and third round picks for player trades but player trades that bring immediate value.

The Jackson trade now worries me because if we end up bottom 6-8 that pick will be top 8 value for 2023 and that doesn’t fit in with my beliefs. The pick traded in 2022 (and ended up being 15) is fine with me.

 

[tonygeeks]

Indeed, but it just shows how inept our efforts have been.

Smith - Proven star wing and no issues off field. Cost them nothing (FA).
Cameron - Proven superstar and no issues off field. Gave up pick 7 equivalent.
Dangerfield - Proven superstar and no issues off field. Gave up pick 6 equivalent.
Stengle - issues off field but cost them nothing
Not sure on Stanley, Rohan and Tuohy, but I bet it didn't cost them much.

These trades make Bell look like a complete and utter clown considering the points value of what he paid for Jackson is more than what Geelong paid for Cameron and Dangerfield combined. Dangerfield was helped by his FA status, but good lord.

Oh by the way, the first part of the Jackson trade is a 195cm key forward who has kicked 7 goals in the last 2 weeks in the VFL, and kicked 7 goals against WA last year.

Lol imagine this place if a 1st yr fwd kicked 7 in 2 in the WAFL

There would be calls for a statue and 12 yrs @ 2 million a yr deals already

 

[freo_leo29]

Lol imagine this place if a 1st yr fwd kicked 7 in 2 in the WAFL

There would be calls for a statue and 12 yrs @ 2 million a yr deals already

True but the VFL has 21 teams and some pretty big gaps in class compared to the WAFL, Dees are on top with 190% and 2 teams they beat are bottom 3 with the dogs being mid table but known to have crap key defense (in the AFL which would funnel down to VFL)

I'd be expecting massive bags from some of our players if they were in the VFL

 

[tonygeeks]

True but the VFL has 21 teams and some pretty big gaps in class compared to the WAFL, Dees are on top with 190% and 2 teams they beat are bottom 3 with the dogs being mid table but known to have crap key defense (in the AFL which would funnel down to VFL)

I'd be expecting massive bags from some of our players if they were in the VFL

Oh yeah ?

How many did Corbett kick last year out of interest

What about the 7 against WA , wasn’t against our red headed skin cancer poster boy was it ?

That would add an extra layer of lols

 

[freo_leo29]

Oh yeah ?

How many did Corbett kick last year out of interest

What about the 7 against WA , wasn’t against our red headed skin cancer poster boy was it ?

That would add an extra layer of lols

Corbett kicked 25 in 12 games, few bags of 5s, 4s, 3s in there and then some with nothing, big split in the quality of sides

Chris Burgess and Corbett were GC key pillars, Burgess scored like 63 goals with some big bags, bloke couldn't get a look in ahead of Casboult/Chol and King was injured

VFL is super tricky to judge


EDIT: as for Jefferson for Metro, yes from highlights it looks like he was directly playing on Davies